Here's my personal one, haven't compared it with any others in the thread, just something I put together while I was working on my Harrenhal Conspiracy series.
Just an FYI, you are welcome to catch up on the thread of course. Tons of great conversation/debate around the dates of certain events (Benjen's age, Arthur Dayne's age, etc), but timelines and concrete/discovered dates like yours are added and meshed into the OP. So you can find everything that's been uncovered all in one place in the first post.
I am the world's worst authority on timelines of actual events that occur during the novels. My mind is stuck in the Long Night. Hence my interest in this thread. It's by far my greatest area of weakness.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Q4 overlap: False Spring, Tourney at Harrenhal (late Q3). Tywin/Cersei return to the Rock. Lyanna crowned; Jaime made KG; Ashara Dayne "not long at court". NOTE: I believe Elia made a trip to Dorne/met up with her Dornish family after Rhaenys' birth - Ashara returned to court with her at that time. (events originally placed at Q3 by BeautifulBacon , most events moved to Q4 by orderofthegreenhand) 9/281 It is still winter (orderofthegreenhand) 10/281 It is still winter (orderofthegreenhand) 11/281 - THE FALSE SPRING begins (from orderofthegreenhand) -Tournament of Harrenhal, Jaime's Kingsguard induction, ??Allyria Dayne conceived?? (placed at 09/281 kinglittlefinger , moved to Nov-Dec by orderofthegreenhand) -Brandon returns to Riverrun, Robert/Ned to the Vale, Benjen to Winterfell, Lyanna whereabouts unknown (placed at 10/281 by kinglittlefinger , moved to Nov-Dec by orderofthegreenhand) 11/281 - Brandon duels Petyr, Brandon leaves Riverrun (from kinglittlefinger ) 12/281 - Aegon born, Elia declared unfit to hear another child, Petyr dismissed to the Vale (from kinglittlefinger ) 12/31/281 - THE FALSE SPRINGends. Winter Returns (from orderofthegreenhand) Winter returns with a vengeance. Snow covers KL, Blackwater freezes. (from BeautifulBacon )
Ok. Whew! Lot of conflicting dates in this part above. I think orderofthegreenhand demonstrates the math for the date of The False Spring though in this video series:
Post by kinglittlefinger on Feb 11, 2017 15:21:51 GMT
Looks like they are close just a different month, which is going to be nearly impossible to pin down to that level of certainty. It's definitely near the end of 281 when ToH takes place, and the order of events are the same. I think the important takeaway is that the "about a year" between ToH and Lyanna's abduction that I see a lot of people throw around is unsubstantiated by the text. Probably 2-3 months at most.
Looks like they are close just a different month, which is going to be nearly impossible to pin down to that level of certainty. It's definitely near the end of 281 when ToH takes place, and the order of events are the same.
That's what I thought too, but I think orderofthegreenhand is right on the timing of this when nailing the False Spring down to a very tight window. Of course, we would be assuming the world book can be believed, and it may well be innaccurate. It does provide a far more definitive window than the novels, in any case:
The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring
And when the triumphant Prince of Dragonstone named Lyanna Stark, daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, the queen of love and beauty, placing a garland of blue roses in her lap with the tip of his lance, the lickspittle lords gathered around the king declared that further proof of his perfidy. Why would the prince have thus given insult to his own wife, the Princess Elia Martell of Dorne (who was present), unless it was to help him gain the Iron Throne? The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia's delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar's cause, Symond Staunton suggested to the king. Yet if this were true, why did Lady Lyanna's brothers seem so distraught at the honor the prince had bestowed upon her? Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister's honor, for Lyanna Stark had long been betrothed to Robert Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End. Eddard Stark, Brandon's younger brother and a close friend to Lord Robert, was calmer but no more pleased. As for Robert Baratheon himself, some say he laughed at the prince's gesture, claiming that Rhaegar had done no more than pay Lyanna her due...but those who knew him better say the young lord brooded on the insult, and that his heart hardened toward the Prince of Dragonstone from that day forth. And well it might, for with that simple garland of pale blue roses, Rhaegar Targaryen had begun the dance that would rip the Seven Kingdoms apart, bring about his own death and thousands more, and put a welcome new king upon the Iron Throne. The False Spring of 281 AC lasted less than two turns. As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance. On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King's Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush. The snowfall continued off and on for the best part of a fortnight, by which time the Blackwater was hard frozen, and icicles draped the roofs and gutters of every tower in the city. As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.
I think the important takeaway is that the "about a year" between ToH and Lyanna's abduction that I see a lot of people throw around is unsubstantiated by the text. Probably 2-3 months at most.
I think the last part of the world book passage above supports your takeaway.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Post by kinglittlefinger on Feb 12, 2017 2:08:51 GMT
Just watched the OotGH videos. Honestly, the biggest discrepancy that orderofthegreenhand proposed in the videos that was eye opening to me is that Brandon and Petyr's duel took place in 283. I've never seen that catch anywhere and it completely changes the generally accepted timeline and is pretty much confirmed twice in the books using Littlefinger's age. I found that incredibly hard to believe, but then I got to thinking, is the only date we have that pinned down the original timeline Robb and Jon's ages? And that's always been under the assumption that Jon was born at the ToJ on top of that?
Seems like some shaky foundation, will definitely have to re-examine.
Just watched the OotGH videos. Honestly, the biggest discrepancy that orderofthegreenhand proposed in the videos that was eye opening to me is that Brandon and Petyr's duel took place in 283. I've never seen that catch anywhere and it completely changes the generally accepted timeline and is pretty much confirmed twice in the books using Littlefinger's age.
Quite the bombshell, right!?
I haven't updated OP dates for their duel yet, I don't think. Will when I have more time for sure.
I found that incredibly hard to believe, but then I got to thinking, is the only date we have that pinned down the original timeline Robb and Jon's ages? And that's always been under the assumption that Jon was born at the ToJ on top of that?
And we have absolutely zero text to suggest Jon was born at the tower of joy. In fact, Weasel Pie has demonstrated that the canonical text never placed Lyanna at the tower of joy... let alone Jon.
Yep, the Starfall baby route is where I've been pondering for the last few weeks. I'm trying to pull together every thread in a way that will make sense of everything.
I can't get past the blue rose/chink in the wall vision in regards to Lyanna being Jon's mother. I love N+A, but what if the result was Allyria, not Jon? I love the idea that OotGH proposed in regard to Ashara being the fisherman's daughter and Wylla being a White Harbor wet nurse and her hiding in the Wolf's Den before returning home, etc. But if she had a daughter, not Jon, and said it was stillborn so they could pass Allyria off as her father and mothers instead, it would explain a few things:
1. Where Barristan got the stillborn daughter info 2. Allyria's age fitting the timeline of being betrothed but not yet married to Beric 3. All the smoke around Ned/Ashara has to lead to a fire somewhere
I haven't finished the OotGH mysteries/war to come series yet, but I've always liked the Mance=Arthur idea and the dynamic it creates if Arthur is Jon's father. I've seen really convincing Hightower=Qorin theories before, so I think he fits much better than Oswell. We know Oswell has a dark/dirty sense of humor, so he might could fit as Tormund. I'll have to examine that deeper in a reread.
In regards to Aegon and Dany, what if they are Rhaegar's twins? Possibly born to Ashara at Starfall? Dany seems to have been raised in Dorne, Aegon might have as well before both were sent to Essos and split up. That puts Ashara having quite a big pregnancy load in a short period of time though, and kinda breaks up the N+A lovefest. Or creates a love triangle that GRRM loves to use.
I don't know, this post probably should've been a new thread since I went off on a big tangent there lol. I need TWOW...
Yep, the Starfall baby route is where I've been pondering for the last few weeks. I'm trying to pull together every thread in a way that will make sense of everything.
I can't get past the blue rose/chink in the wall vision in regards to Lyanna being Jon's mother. I love N+A, but what if the result was Allyria, not Jon? I love the idea that OotGH proposed in regard to Ashara being the fisherman's daughter and Wylla being a White Harbor wet nurse and her hiding in the Wolf's Den before returning home, etc. But if she had a daughter, not Jon, and said it was stillborn so they could pass Allyria off as her father and mothers instead, it would explain a few things:
1. Where Barristan got the stillborn daughter info 2. Allyria's age fitting the timeline of being betrothed but not yet married to Beric 3. All the smoke around Ned/Ashara has to lead to a fire somewhere
I haven't finished the OotGH mysteries/war to come series yet, but I've always liked the Mance=Arthur idea and the dynamic it creates if Arthur is Jon's father. I've seen really convincing Hightower=Qorin theories before, so I think he fits much better than Oswell. We know Oswell has a dark/dirty sense of humor, so he might could fit as Tormund. I'll have to examine that deeper in a reread.
In regards to Aegon and Dany, what if they are Rhaegar's twins? Possibly born to Ashara at Starfall? Dany seems to have been raised in Dorne, Aegon might have as well before both were sent to Essos and split up. That puts Ashara having quite a big pregnancy load in a short period of time though, and kinda breaks up the N+A lovefest. Or creates a love triangle that GRRM loves to use.
I don't know, this post probably should've been a new thread since I went off on a big tangent there lol. I need TWOW...
Prophecy is bullshit don't trust it. Marwyn and Tyrion agree so its on good authority.
Barristan was in KL and then wounded on the Trident, anything he heard is rumor or speculation.
Arthur as Mance I am pretty certain on. Oswell and Gerold being Qhorin and Tormund needs a bit more for me. It doesn't have the scene like Rattershirt fighting Jon with the greatsword to seal it for me.
I am currently wondering if R+L= A and D.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Ok. Obviously, I'm not a big fan of GQA, and most of my entries have to do with documenting her Vaginal Warg-Blocking... but I just noticed something that I hadn't before:
The Dragonking and Dragonqueen Fly North with Six Dragons and Half His Court:
- On her way to the Wall on her dragon Silverwing, "Good Queen" Alysanne Targaryen visited and stayed at a tower holdfast. The villagers painted the merlons atop the tower gold. The location of this tower seems to have been in lands under the domain of House Stark, but that would soon change as Alysanne ceded the lands of the New Gift for the Night's Watch. This tower holdfast is now located in Gift lands, and was renamed "Queenscrown." (voice )
- King Jaehaerys I Targaryen, "The Conciliator", and "Good Queen" Alysanne Targaryen, visit the north. Their grandson King Viserys I, "The Young King", told his own grandchildren a version of the tale that stated Jaehaerys' reason for flying north was to defeat a vast host of wildlings, giants, and wargs at the Wall. (source: The Rogue Prince) (added by voice )
- Good Queen Alysanne (GQA) travelled to the Wall on her dragon Silverwing. According to stories, she was so impressed by the bravery of the Night's Watch that she asked Jaehaerys to double the size of the Watch's land. The acquired land, taken from the domains of House Stark, was called the New Gift. The reigning lord of Winterfell, Ellard Stark, did not consent to this transfer. (voice )
- Under the pretext that the Nightfort was huge and ruinously costly, Alysanne donated jewels for the construction of a new castle, Deep Lake. (voice )
- Snowgate is renamed Queensgate in honor of GQA's overnight visit there, and in thanks of the her "New Gift" to the Night's Watch and the construction of Deep Lake. (voice )
96 Rise of the Three Daughters: After defeating Volantis at the Battle of the Borderlands by uniting their forces, the Free Cities Myr, Lys and Tyrosh decide to ally together, forming the Triarchy, also known in Westeros as the Kingdom of the Three Daughters. The Triarchy would last for several decades, during which they found find themselves in conflict with the Targaryens on occasion.
~ 97
- Last known sighting of a direwolf south of the Wall, according to Theon Greyjoy in Bran I AGOT. This likely would have weakened and lessened the number of wargs south of the Wall. (voice ) 99-100 - "Good Queen" Alysanne Targaryen dies. (voice )
157-161 Daeron conquers Dorne: Upon taking the throne at age fourteen, King Daeron I decides to finish Aegon the Conqueror's work and launches a successful invasion of Dorne. Unfortunately, he leaves a Tyrell of Highgarden in charge: a house that has warred with the Martells for thousands of years. The tyrannical rule of the Tyrells triggers an uprising against the Iron Throne. When Daeron I returns with a fresh army, he is killed, his cousin Prince Aemon the Dragonknight is captured and his forty thousand men are lost.
Notice how recently House Stark was disempowered by the Targaryens, and how recently House Dayne became Targaryen subjects.
Torrhen knelt three hundred years ago, but House Stark still had direwolves to influence their consciousness until two hundred years ago. GQA put an end to that, then her descendant put an end to Dornish sovereignty sixty years later.
House Dayne is often taken for granted as loyal to the crown, but they have only been subjects of it for 140 years.
Anyway, thought that was interesting.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Looks like they are close just a different month, which is going to be nearly impossible to pin down to that level of certainty. It's definitely near the end of 281 when ToH takes place, and the order of events are the same. I think the important takeaway is that the "about a year" between ToH and Lyanna's abduction that I see a lot of people throw around is unsubstantiated by the text. Probably 2-3 months at most.
Hey kinglittlefinger I know this is off topic, but can you upload an avatar? The alien head is freaking me out.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
-Obella Sand is born to Oberyn Martell -Jeor Mormont chosen as the 997th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, according to both Maester Aemon (Targaryen) and Mance Rayder. These two men contradict the old bear, as Jeor Mormont claims he was already Lord Commander when Alliser Thorne joined the Night's Watch in 283. (mtootles)
07/283 - Rhaella escapes to Dragonstone, Sack of Kings Landing (kinglittlefinger ) - Jaremy Rykker and Alliser Thorne are sent to the Night's Watch by Tywin Lannister. Jeor Mormont contradicts Maester Aemon and Mance Rayder by claiming that he was Lord Commander at the time. (mtootles )
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
281 Q1 Overlap: Elia recovered. Escorted through Kingswood/Hightower injured. Arianne meets Rhaenys (mentions holding the baby in her TWOW sample chapter - this could only have happened between 281 and early 282, before the war) (@prettypig ) Sarella Sand is born to Oberyn Martell and a Trader from the Summer Isles (Wraith ) Quentyn Martell is born to Doran Martell (Wraith ) 01/281 - Kingswood Brotherhood defeated, Jaime knighted (kinglittlefinger ) 02/281 - Kingsguard knight Harlan Grandison dies in his sleep (kinglittlefinger ) 03/281 - Aegon conceived (kinglittlefinger )
Q2 Overlap: KWB defeated. (Led by Arthur Dayne, as Hightower still recovering from wound. Simon Toyne killed. Jaime knighted.) Tywin still Hand, Cersei in KL. (@prettypig ) 04/281 - Tywin negotiating Jaime's marriage to Lysa, Cersei conspires to get him named to Kingsguard (kinglittlefinger ) 05/281 - Jaime announced to Kingsguard, Tywin resigns as Hand and returns to Casterly Rock, Merryweather named Hand (kinglittlefinger ) 06/281 - Oswell Whent travels to Harrenhal to convince his brother to host a grand tournament (kinglittlefinger )
Q3 07/281 08/281 09/281 -
Q4 Overlap: False Spring, Tourney at Harrenhal (late Q3). Tywin/Cersei return to the Rock. Lyanna crowned; Jaime made KG; Ashara Dayne "not long at court". NOTE: I believe Elia made a trip to Dorne/met up with her Dornish family after Rhaenys' birth - Ashara returned to court with her at that time. (events originally placed at Q3 by @prettypig , most events moved to Q4 by orderofthegreenhand ) 9/281 It is still winter (orderofthegreenhand ) 10/281 It is still winter (orderofthegreenhand ) 11/281 - THE FALSE SPRING begins (orderofthegreenhand ) -Tournament of Harrenhal, Jaime's Kingsguard induction, ??Allyria Dayne conceived?? (placed at 09/281 kinglittlefinger , moved to Nov-Dec by orderofthegreenhand ) -Brandon returns to Riverrun, Robert/Ned to the Vale, Benjen to Winterfell, Lyanna whereabouts unknown (placed at 10/281 by kinglittlefinger , moved to Nov-Dec by orderofthegreenhand ) 11/281 - Brandon duels Petyr, Brandon leaves Riverrun (kinglittlefinger ) 12/281 - Aegon born, Elia declared unfit to hear another child, Petyr dismissed to the Vale (kinglittlefinger ) 12/31/281 - THE FALSE SPRINGends. Winter Returns (orderofthegreenhand ) Winter returns with a vengeance. Snow covers KL, Blackwater freezes. (@prettypig )
282
Q1: Winter has come (orderofthegreenhand ) Fires burn in KL, Rhaegar not there to see them. Elia and Baby Aegon on Dragonstone. (@prettypig ) 01/282 02/282 - Lyanna abduction, Brandon rides to Kings Landing and is imprisoned (kinglittlefinger ) 03/282 - Aerys calls for Rickard Stark to come to Kings Landing (kinglittlefinger )
Q2: Brandon/Petyr duel after pending Cat marriage announced. Just shy of wedding day Brandon "heard the news about Lyanna" and leaves. Sam Tarly conceived. (@prettypig ) Overlap: Brandon/Rickard go to KL and are killed. Aerys calls for heads. 04/282 - Rickard arrives in Kings Landing and is executed with Brandon, Aerys sends word to Jon Arryn for Ned and Robert's heads (kinglittlefinger ) 05/282 - Arryn raises banners in revolt, Battle at Gulltown, Robert/Ned leave for homes to raise banners (kinglittlefinger 06/282 - Ned crosses the Bite, ??Allyria Dayne born at Starfall?? (kinglittlefinger )
Q3: Jon Arryn revolts. Ned betrothed to Cat. Lady Dustin married "not half a year" when Jon Arryn/Robert called banners - Lord Ryswell had wanted to marry Barbrey to Brandon (probably because they were already shagging), but married her to Dustin instead after that no longer possible due to announcement of Brandon's wedding to Cat (a Q1 wedding announcement to Q3 banner-call is about 6-8 months - just about right for Ryswell to find Barbrey a quickie husband). (@prettypig ) Overlap: Fighting already in Vale, Gulltown. Ned returns to Winterfell - Fisherman's Daughter. Battles of Ashford and Summerhall. Randall Tarly has a victory for the Crown. 07/282 - Robert arrives in Storms End and calls banners, 3 battles in one day at Summerhall (kinglittlefinger ) 08/282 - Ned arrives at Winterfell and calls banners to head South (kinglittlefinger ) 09/282 - Battle at Ashford, Tyrell's head to Storm's End, Robert injured and escapes to Stoney Sept to recover (kinglittlefinger )
Q4: Margaery Tyrell conceived (has to be Q4 given her name day window - I'm assuming Mace returned to Highgarden briefly after Ashford to reform his vanguard to march south). Mace Tyrell's van marches to SE to begin siege. Rhaegar AWOL, JonConn named Hand. Ned gathers army, rides south. (@prettypig ) 10/282 - Siege of Storms End begins (kinglittlefinger ) 11/282 - Connington named Hand, Dorne raises banners to join war on the Targaryens side (kinglittlefinger ) 12/282 - Battle of the Bells (kinglittlefinger )
283
Q1: Battle of the Bells, Rebel victory at Stoney Sept. Rhae Rhae still away. Arryn heir killed in battle. Ned returns to Riverrun, double wedding. Cat pregnant. JonConn exiled. Mama Martell dead/gone, Doran Martell now Prince of Dorne. Samwell Tarly born. (@prettypig ) 01/283 - Selmy and Darry sent to Riverlands to rally loyalist forces, Hightower sent to retrieve Rhaegar, Riverrun Weddings, Robb conceived (kinglittlefinger ) 02/283 - Jon conceived (kinglittlefinger ) 03/283 - Connington exiled, Chelsted named Hand (kinglittlefinger )
Q2: More fighting in south. Ned off at war, Rhaegar "returns from the south" and starts organizing Royal forces; Dornish marching up the Boneway. (@prettypig ) Overlap: Trident. Rhaella supposedly conceives Dany. Margaery Tyrell born (late summer birthday, like August) - conceived before Mace left for Siege in late Q3/early Q4 04/283 - Rhaegar returns to Kings Landing to rally forces (kinglittlefinger ) 05/283 06/283 - Loyalist forces ride out to face rebels, Battle of the Trident, Chelsted burned, Aerys names Viserys his heir, Daenerys conceived, Rossart named Hand (kinglittlefinger )
Q3: Sack of King's Landing (this is ~one year from JA calling banners, consistent with text). Robb born - A Cat POV mentions being safe at RR w/newborn Robb as city torn apart (@prettypig ) Overlap: Siege at SE lifted (this is ~one year from Battle of Ashford, consistent with text - Davos confirms TWICE through POV in late summer/early fall 299 that his delivery of onions/fish was "16 years ago"; siege lifted shortly after) 07/283 - Rhaella escapes to Dragonstone, Sack of Kings Landing (kinglittlefinger ) - Jaremy Rykker and Alliser Thorne are sent to the Night's Watch by Tywin Lannister. Jeor Mormont contradicts Maester Aemon and Mance Rayder by claiming that he was Lord Commander at the time. (mtootles ) 08/283 09/283 - Storms End siege lifted by Ned, Stannis begins building fleet (kinglittlefinger )
Q4: Ned heads south, Tower of Joy. Robert tasks Stannis with taking Dragonstone, Stannis begins building fleet. 10/283 - Robb born (kinglittlefinger ) 11/283 - Jon born, Ned arrives at Tower of Joy (kinglittlefinger ) 12/283 - Ned returns Dawn to Starfall (kinglittlefinger )
284 Q1: Ned's long return trip from Dorne (@prettypig ) 01/284 02/284 03/284 - Stannis sails for Dragonstone, Daenerys born, Rhaella dies in childbirth, Darry and Targaryen children escape to Braavos (kinglittlefinger )
Overlap: Ned back at Winterfell (this is ~one year after marriage to Cat, consistent with text), Jon there too
Q2: Dany born (supposedly) during fierce summer storm
Q3: late in quarter, Willem Darry & children flee to Braavos (@prettypig )
Overlap: Assault on Dragonstone (this is ~one year after lifting of Siege, consistent with text)
Q4: War over, Robert and Cersei to marry. (@prettypig )
@prettypig said:
I interpret a few thing from this timeline:
1) Jon can indeed be born around the Sack and be 8-9 months older than Dany. 2) Dany can indeed be conceived at the time of the Sack in order to be born in Q2 284, although it might be pushing it a bit. Conception moved back to around the time of the Trident pushes it even further. 3) I believe it's more likely that there are several weeks between the Trident and the Sack. 4) There is no way that it's only a couple of weeks between the Sack and the TOJ. 5) Ergo, Jon cannot be newly born around the time of the Sack AND the TOJ. 6) Jon can be born around the time of the Sack and be 8-9 months older than Dany per SSM, but he CANNOT be just-born at the TOJ and be 8-9 months older than Dany.
*I* think that Lyanna was taken in the spring, and whatever "news" about her (IMO: that she was being held by the Crown to be executed) began circulating spring into summer. Her family marches in early summer to defend her, the Stark men are killed in summer (by a fire king, how appropriate), and war officially breaks out in fall. Winter begins, as does Ned's march south with his men, and the siege on SE. Fighting, fighting, more fighting until the next summer, when Rhaegar is killed on the Trident late in that season. Fall brings the fall of KL and the Targaryen dynasty, and the lifting of the Siege. In winter again, Ned finds no Joy at the Tower, but returns home in time to dream of spring.
Now, all you Beltane folks can play with the seasonality of that and have fun.
Thank you to all who contributed to the Timeline. Much appreciated.
I have nothing to contribute but I am in search of an answer and this would speed my research. I am just quoting it so I can see better the events and have a point of reference when I look at my posts. Easier to find that way too.
Looks like they are close just a different month, which is going to be nearly impossible to pin down to that level of certainty. It's definitely near the end of 281 when ToH takes place, and the order of events are the same. I think the important takeaway is that the "about a year" between ToH and Lyanna's abduction that I see a lot of people throw around is unsubstantiated by the text. Probably 2-3 months at most.
The "about a year" reference of time is not wholly unsubstantiated and could have still happened. What the Worldbook reveals to us is that Rhaegar departed Dragonstone somewhere at the beginning of 282 AC. Also, according to the Worldbook on he departed on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the Riverlands. The only issue is that we don't know if he went to the straight to the riverlands or what he was up to during said journey. We know Rhaegar left Dragonstone and Lyanna disappeared an unknown amount of time later. So if he went straight there then (meaning he most likely went with express intention of leaving with Lyanna thus he went directly after her) that makes the 2-3 month period of time more likely but if he went other places before ultimately returning to the riverlands (e.g. he ran into Lyanna on his travels) then we could be looking at a time frame of 2-10 months before he ran into Lyanna. It really hinges on what he was up to.
The "about a year" reference of time is not wholly unsubstantiated and could have still happened. What the Worldbook reveals to us is that Rhaegar departed Dragonstone somewhere at the beginning of 282 AC. Also, according to the Worldbook on he departed on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the Riverlands. The only issue is that we don't know if he went to the straight to the riverlands or what he was up to during said journey.
Indeed. I think this is the trouble though.
We have to fit quite a bit of activity into this window, and then we have to match up this window to the time in which Brandon Stark was alive... as we know he rode around the Red Keep, demanding that Rhaegar "Come out and die!" following Lyanna's disappearance.
We know Rhaegar left Dragonstone and Lyanna disappeared an unknown amount of time later. So if he went straight there then (meaning he most likely went with express intention of leaving with Lyanna thus he went directly after her) that makes the 2-3 month period of time more likely but if he went other places before ultimately returning to the riverlands (e.g. he ran into Lyanna on his travels) then we could be looking at a time frame of 2-10 months before he ran into Lyanna. It really hinges on what he was up to.
I'm not sure if we even know when, exactly, Lyanna disappeared. The world book gives us a location for the abduction, but not a time reference iirc.
When reconciling any series of events, the timeline becomes crucial. Hence this ever-evolving OP. But when it comes to Lyanna's disappearance and death, the timeline is of peak importance. It can make or break candidates for parentage, as well as possible offspring.
While I am fond of N+A=J, I am far from sold on it. I strongly lean towards the theory that Lyanna was Jon's mom. But this N+A=J video from orderofthegreenhand does a very nice job of breaking down some common misconceptions in the timeline of events, as well as highlighting some findings that were new (or at least, "new" to me).
I'll link it to start at the 2:42 mark. Regardless of the parentage scenario you prefer, it is quite informative.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."