Post by voice on May 27, 2017 4:48:14 GMT
Rabbit hole indeed.
Old Nan mentions nothing about the identity of the Last Hero. All we can tell from her, is that is name has been suppressed/forgotten.
Which is all the more suspicious, no?
The Last Hero's name is suppressed or forgotten and his twelve companions died... And the Night's King's name is suppressed/forgotten and he was the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch.
The Last Hero, whose name is suppressed/forgotten had a blade of dragonsteel, against which the Others could not stand...
And the Night's King, whose name is suppressed/forgotten had given his soul and seed to a woman that seems to have been quite Other-ish, and had been making sacrifices to the Others.
I must remind the Hearth that the Long Night only lasted for a single generation. So these two men, if they not one and the same, were at least quite near to one anther chronologically. That they should both be the thirteenth man to lead a group of me against the Others during the Long Night, and that both of their names seem to have been neglected from the (oral, then written) historical record, seems to me to be far too much similarty to merely be happenstance.
As you would call it elsewhere, this quote is 'semi-canon'.
Indeed it is! And I can't have that lemoncake while also eating it.
But I am confident in the suggestion that this particular quote came from GRRM, rather than from Elio/Linda. I think GRRM made a mistake, and accidentally revealed that BtB=LH. It stands out as a grand revelation in an otherwise somewhat useless book (for a guy like me who is obsessed with that history, anyway), even if it is a revelation that is not incredibly surprising.
Still, as semi-canon, which it is regardless of the source, it must be taken well salted. I think the books provide enough parallels to make the case without that passage (and I did not include it in this OP for that very reason), but I do still find it to be very interesting and informative.
Much mystery surrounds the language of the singers of the songs of earth. If Brandon the Builder of House Stark learned it, this might explain several mysteries, such as:
- how he was able to install/program the Black Gate
- how he was able to use ice to make the Wall
- how he was able to learn ancient magics from the cotf
And, if BtB=LH, it also explains how he was able to subdue the Others. And if BtB=LH=NK, well, then we know how he was able to communicate with that woman he glimpsed from atop the Wall, as the Others seem to speak the same language as the cotf.
It has as much value as this other quote which gives us a westerosi name for the LH:
How long the darkness endured no man can say, but all agree that it was only when a great warrior—known variously as Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser—arose to give courage to the race of men and lead the virtuous into battle with his blazing sword Lightbringer that the darkness was put to rout, and light and love returned once more to the world.
I persevere to think that the story of LH, BtB and NK is rooted in Arthurian legends. There are so many similarities between various characters in these legends (plural) and the I&F legends.
BtB being the NK does fit well the character Mordred, a traitor, who stole Arthur's kingdom and wife (Guinevere).
One meaning of Guinevere is
The Welsh form Gwenhwyfar, which seems to be cognate with the Irish name Findabair, can be translated as "The White Enchantress" or "The White Fay/Ghost", from Proto-Celtic *Windo- "white, fair, holy" + *sebara "magical being" (cognate with Old Irish síabair "a spectre, phantom, supernatural being
A good match for the NK's glimpsed woman whose skin was cold as ice.
The LH fits the character of Arthur, both after a holy grail, both armed with a magic sword, alive with light, both had 12 companions, both had a dog, etc etc.
Arthur was said to be either the father or uncle of Mordred.
However these similarities imply that the LH is not BtB/NK.
From that point assumptions must be made:
- such as the character of Guinevere is Ice (my thanks to the sentient sword thread), that is, the NK's ice queen was no 'woman' but a sword. Have we not seen somewhere swords being equated to women?
And such as the LH going north of the Nightfort to pursue the Others (?) and in the mean time BtB taking over his castle and building a Wall to to protect his stolen kingdom. And doing shady deals with the cold side (or the children).
When the LH came back, they fought and BtB gained the LH's magic sword.
Later BtBreaker joined with Joramun, whose people were trapped on the north side, to take BtB/NK down.
What was the relationship between the LH and BtB and BtBkr?
Mayhaps the LH was a Brandon, a descendant of Bran the Bloody Blade and a father to BtBuilder and BtBreaker.
They all ended up in WF.
Following the LN, the LH's descendants were named Daynes, in honour of the LH and his Sword Ice - which had become Dawn - and the Brandons were named Starks in regards to their ruthless conquests.
Arthur Dayne, SotM, a direct descendant of the LH, aka King Arthur. I prefer this rabbit hole.
I love all of this, but I do still cling (far too stubbornly, I know) to the belief that the Last Hero became the Night's King, and that by day, he was building the Wall and Winterfell, while at night, he was giving his soul to the NQ and making sacrificed to the Others.
Have you read The Lonely Songs of Laren Dorr? I only bring it up because its protagonist is a woman named Sharra, whose name sounds a lot like Ashara Dayne's, but who looks more like asoiaf's Lyanna (assuming Lyanna had grey eyes).
There is also The Ice Dragon, which reads like the Night's Queen's origin story.
I need to brush up on my Arthurian legends. I haven't read them in many years. When I recall Arthur, this is what comes to mind:
sorry to have side tracked your conversation!
Not at all! These are wonderful insights!