But aside from that minor cutting, the northernmost example that springs to mind is Harrenhal,
very minor, anfd harrenhal is south of the neck, and Harren lived very recently. So all in all, no real evidence of a weirwood destruction based conflict between northern FM and children.
On this tangent, was Aegon called by the children to put an end to the desecrations of Harren?
(sorry for the piecemeal posts...i am baby sitting a tiny flea and she won't sit still..)
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
The reason I feel like they were always VERY expensive is that even rich Houses like the Lannisters only had one. If the Starks could go out and buy a giant VS sword just for carrying out executions, shouldn't the Lannisters have a handful at least? They are, after all, vastly superior weapons and also a status symbol.
Sure. But I would think that Valyrians primarily wanted their advanced tech for themselves, and limited the number available for trade.
I do agree that the Lions would have been able to afford more, had they sought to buy another, but the same is true today. Sellers of Valyrian wares are hard to come by. I would imagine that the Targ colony was mainly a display of Valyrian technological/military supremacy, rather than a friendly neighborhood market with as many arms for sale as locals were willing to buy.
In ASTNKM, we see how limited the number of guns available were for the ewoks, and those ewoks that accepted the arms were forever changed by the act. In this way, I see the Targ colony as a corrupting force in Westeros. Add a drop of dark magic/sentience to the blades, and well, let's just say it wasn't exactly a fireworks stand.
I'm not sure I agree with this part. Yes, Ned used Ice for executions, but it was also the sword he carried to KL and fought Jaime with. Presumably, it's the sword he fought with at the TOJ, and possibly even the sword that killed SAD. It seems to be his primary weapon if he is going to fight someone.
I thought the same, but it turns out the bold is not the case. George is on record saying that Ned did not use Ice at the tower of joy, and did not use Ice for battles.
Asked if Ned ever used Ice in battle. George points out it was a greatsword, very large and cumbersome, a ceremonial sword for beheading people more than a fighting sword, so he suggests that it was "probably too heavy and clumsy" to use unless you're the Mountain.
Ned brought Ice to KL because the Hand carries out the King's Justice, and we know that Ned keeps the old way. If he condemns a man to death, he'll need to behead that man himself.
Notably, Ned does not carry Ice. Theon carried it for him for his execution of Gared, Jory fetched it for him when he executed Lady.
Thus, we know from the SSM that when Ned rode to the tower of joy, he did not bring Ice. Thus, Ned's ride south was NOT to dispense justice... and this is yet another strike against the theory of RLJ, in my head-canon.
And most interesting, to me, this SSM implies that, (if indeed the tower of joy occurred near/shortly after the end of RR,) Benjen Stark was the Stark in Winterfell, wielding Ice, prepared to execute the king's justice if the duty arose.
And if Dawn is indeed as big as Ice, then Ser Arthur has already demonstrated that this is not too big or unwieldy for use in a fight - in fact, it confers a significant advantage over any other sword. Mance also chooses a greatsword to fight Jon.... so I would say that, in the right hands, even a very large sword can be a powerful weapon, not just a tool for executions.
I completely agree, regarding those other examples. But Ice is House Stark's electric chair.
A King in the North does not stoop to the level of common men (including common nobles). A King in the North would have had very little cause to fight. I'm sure Robert would have enjoyed shedding far more blood, but a king's place is on a throne, dispensing justice – not the battlefield.
So they've had multiple Ices throughout the years? Hmmm. It still strikes me as odd that we haven't heard anything about how the original was lost, but if your theory is correct, I guess it makes sense that GRRM is keeping this info to himself.
Here's how I think of it...
If, in the books, Rickon returned home and Bran did not, Rickon would be Lord of Winterfell. His father's Ice is long gone, half of it is in Brienne's hand, the other half is in Tommen's.
If Lord Rickon's blacksmith (RIP Mikken!) made a sword for Rickon to replace the one that was lost, how big do you think it would be? What do you think Rickon would name it?
Granted, Rickon is small (not to mention, a shaggy dog story), but he'll grow. And when he's grown, he'll need to dispense justice. Will he hire a headsman? Will he hang them from trees like his mom? Or, will he hear their final words and behead them as his black wolf rests by his feet?
"Ice" is important. I revere Ned's reverence for it. But we know from Catelyn that his "Ice" was only a placeholder. The real "Ice" dates to the age of heroes. Presumably, then, it was a hero's sword. My money is on the thirteenth man to lead the original brotherhood, the Last Hero. I think he turned his cloak, joined the Others as the Night's King, and was given the O.G. Ice.
It is worth noting that NK is the earliest mention of a king in the tales. I think house Stark draws its sovereignty from his dictatorship, his Wall, and his sword.
So, today, ~10000 years later, we find House Stark still pretending that they wield Ice, even though Ned's sword is clearly not made of ice. "Ice" is a pretty bad name for a Valyrian steel sword, truth be told. And on the other side of the continent, we see a sword of similar length and girth (calm down, ladies LOL), that happens to be alive with light and pale as milkglass. It also happens to be as old as the name of House Stark's sword, but it's called Dawn.
Almost seems as if Dawn is named for the end of the Long Night that gave birth to the reign of House Stark... but I digress...
Unlike House Dayne, House Stark has not possessed the same sword for ~10,000 years, but they have kept the name of it alive. The memory. And they pray for winter to return.
Long story, short, "Ice" is what Starks call "justice."
Isn't Dragonstone much, much older than 400 years? I don't recall the Targaryens building it; they just moved there after Daenys had her dreams of the Doom. Was it uninhabited before their arrival? For some reason I feel like it was a Valyrian colony long before the Targs set up shop there, but I don't have the text in front of me to confirm this...
The island itself is surely very old, and dragons had roosed there even in ancient times, if the world book can be believed.
But Dragonstone Castle was built only two centuries before the Doom (114 BC). Catelyn places Ned's VS sword at around the same period (his "Ice" is four centuries old in 297 AC). We can put together a rough timeline from these tidbits:
~314 BC Dragonstone is built by Valyrian colonists (not named Targaryen)
126 BC Aenar Targaryen relocates his family to Dragonstone, following the prophetic dreams of his daughter, Daenys the Dreamer
114 BC The Doom strikes the Valyria, leaving House Targaryen as the sole survivors of the once forty ancient noble houses who ruled the Valyria Freehold
~103 BC House Stark acquires a Valyrian-steel greatsword, and names it "Ice", after a sword that existed in the Age of Heroes
Regardless, other Westerosi Houses have had their swords for more than 400 years, so trade was definitely occurring before then (such as in Oldtown).
That age of 400 is only for "Ice", but Dragonstone Castle is a bit older. In our crude timeline above, we see that Dragonstone Castle has been in Westeros for at least 600 years.
I may be wrong, but I believe this makes the outpost on Dragonstone old enough to have supplied every Westerosi household's VS blade. "Hearts bane" is the one that always comes to my mind, because I like Winston Churchill Samwell Tarly. It's 500 years old, and well within that margin.
The only blade older than Heartsbane I can think of is Dawn, but that is likely because I am a Dayne-supremacist. LOL
And of course, Dawn is not Valyrian-steel, and predates not only the Doom, but the rise of Valyria as well.
So the timing still seems suspicious to me, especially since the Targs don't seem to have the technology/magic to make VS, meaning they would have been trading away one of only a handful of superior weapons at a time when they knew those weapons were about to be very, very rare.
Indeed. The Targaryens were Valyrian nobles, not blacksmiths (...spell-smiths? ...dragonsmiths?). They know how to ride dragons and brush give orders, and not much else.
One might even say that a Smith ended their rule.
So yes, I definitely agree Targs had little and less to do with the manufacture of VS.
I do have a crackpot that the lesser houses, the bannermen to Dragonstone, are descendants of the original colonists of Dragonstone, but it isn't very polished. In that head-canon, I imagine Houses Celtigar and Velaryon were the actual builders and traders that made Dragonstone into a viable outpost for the Freehold.
In their ranks, there may have been some smiths like Tobho Mott who could rework VS, but I don't think that even they would have been able to create it. I think VS is unique because it was forged in the Fourteen Flames.
But the noble Targaryens, no. No skilled labour to be found there... and good luck finding one that isn't trying to fuck his sister. LOL
But alas, yes. I think Dragonstone had a finite number of Valyrian-steel swords to trade/distribute. They were certainly valuable, even in their day. But buyers, and even sellers who didn't believe in prophetic dreams, would likely have expected there would be new VS wares for sale in the future.
(Also strange that the Targs didn't bother learning the VS-making technology/magic while they had the chance. Knowing the Doom was coming, that would have been the way to go, along with learning how to make those permanent dragon roads and the fused stone... )
Yes indeed. For Targaryens and those who did heed Daenys, this sounds incredibly suspect. I believe that this distribution offended their old Valyrian Gods, and that the giving of magical wares to nonbelievers hastened the Doom.
(Well, that, and expanding their civilization in the midst of 14 active volcanoes. LOL)
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Sure. But I would think that Valyrians primarily wanted their advanced tech for themselves, and limited the number available for trade.
I do agree that the Lions would have been able to afford more, had they sought to buy another, but the same is true today. Sellers of Valyrian wares are hard to come by. I would imagine that the Targ colony was mainly a display of Valyrian technological/military supremacy, rather than a friendly neighborhood market with as many arms for sale as locals were willing to buy.
Fair enough. The Andals presumably also weren't going around selling steel when it was still rare.
In ASTNKM, we see how limited the number of guns available were for the ewoks, and those ewoks that accepted the arms were forever changed by the act. In this way, I see the Targ colony as a corrupting force in Westeros. Add a drop of dark magic/sentience to the blades, and well, let's just say it wasn't exactly a fireworks stand.
I thought the same, but it turns out the bold is not the case. George is on record saying that Ned did not use Ice at the tower of joy, and did not use Ice for battles.
Asked if Ned ever used Ice in battle. George points out it was a greatsword, very large and cumbersome, a ceremonial sword for beheading people more than a fighting sword, so he suggests that it was "probably too heavy and clumsy" to use unless you're the Mountain.
Ned brought Ice to KL because the Hand carries out the King's Justice, and we know that Ned keeps the old way. If he condemns a man to death, he'll need to behead that man himself.
Notably, Ned does not carry Ice. Theon carried it for him for his execution of Gared, Jory fetched it for him when he executed Lady.
Thus, we know from the SSM that when Ned rode to the tower of joy, he did not bring Ice. Thus, Ned's ride south was NOT to dispense justice... and this is yet another strike against the theory of RLJ, in my head-canon.
And most interesting, to me, this SSM implies that, (if indeed the tower of joy occurred near/shortly after the end of RR,) Benjen Stark was the Stark in Winterfell, wielding Ice, prepared to execute the king's justice if the duty arose.
If, in the books, Rickon returned home and Bran did not, Rickon would be Lord of Winterfell. His father's Ice is long gone, half of it is in Brienne's hand, the other half is in Tommen's.
If Lord Rickon's blacksmith (RIP Mikken!) made a sword for Rickon to replace the one that was lost, how big do you think it would be? What do you think Rickon would name it?
Granted, Rickon is small (not to mention, a shaggy dog story), but he'll grow. And when he's grown, he'll need to dispense justice. Will he hire a headsman? Will he hang them from trees like his mom? Or, will he hear their final words and behead them as his black wolf rests by his feet?
I agree that he would name it Ice and use it to dispense justice... but, I also think that when he passes it down to his son (if not before), Rickon would explain to him how his own father had a sword named Ice that was lost when he went south. He would explain that thisIce was made after the Long Night ended, to replace it. In other words, I would like there to be a story of how at least the latest Ice was lost. The Lannisters know their VS sword was lost when Gerion took it to Valyria (How was this possible, by the way? Wouldn't the sword have gone to Tywin, the heir?), and Dark Sister went to the Wall with BR. Blackfyre was taken by that branch of the family, and was presumably lost in Essos. ETc. Some sort of story like that is all I ask.
"Ice" is important. I revere Ned's reverence for it. But we know from Catelyn that his "Ice" was only a placeholder. The real "Ice" dates to the age of heroes. Presumably, then, it was a hero's sword. My money is on the thirteenth man to lead the original brotherhood, the Last Hero. I think he turned his cloak, joined the Others as the Night's King, and was given the O.G. Ice.
It is worth noting that NK is the earliest mention of a king in the tales. I think house Stark draws its sovereignty from his dictatorship, his Wall, and his sword.
So, today, ~10000 years later, we find House Stark still pretending that they wield Ice, even though Ned's sword is clearly not made of ice. "Ice" is a pretty bad name for a Valyrian steel sword, truth be told. And on the other side of the continent, we see a sword of similar length and girth (calm down, ladies LOL), that happens to be alive with light and pale as milkglass. It also happens to be as old as the name of House Stark's sword, but it's called Dawn.
Almost seems as if Dawn is named for the end of the Long Night that gave birth to the reign of House Stark... but I digress...
LOL, it seems we both stopped discussing show-related news long ago.
I agree that Ice seems a weird name for a VS sword; however, I never claimed that the current Ice was the original. It is clearly stated in the text that it's a replacement for a previous sword named Ice. So that seems like a reasonable explanation.
Regarding your main point - are you suggesting the Last Hero turned his cloak after he helped end the Long Night, or that he caused the LN as Night's King and ended it as the Last Hero? In either case, are you saying the Others gave him Ice? Which then helped bring back the dawn? Wouldn't that be a terrible move by the Others?
As a side point, I'm pretty sure they had kings before the long night. After all, they froze in their castles just like the smallfolk in their huts.
The island itself is surely very old, and dragons had roosed there even in ancient times, if the world book can be believed.
But Dragonstone Castle was built only two centuries before the Doom (114 BC). Catelyn places Ned's VS sword at around the same period (his "Ice" is four centuries old in 297 AC). We can put together a rough timeline from these tidbits:
~314 BC Dragonstone is built by Valyrian colonists (not named Targaryen)
126 BC Aenar Targaryen relocates his family to Dragonstone, following the prophetic dreams of his daughter, Daenys the Dreamer
114 BC The Doom strikes the Valyria, leaving House Targaryen as the sole survivors of the once forty ancient noble houses who ruled the Valyria Freehold
~103 BC House Stark acquires a Valyrian-steel greatsword, and names it "Ice", after a sword that existed in the Age of Heroes
That feeling when you realize your head-canon was off by a few millennia... LOL. Thanks for setting it straight, I really thought it was much older. Probably b/c it has those tunnels, similar to WF and the Nightfort, both of which are ancient. But then, the Red Keep also has tunnels underneath and throughout, so I guess Valyrians/Targaryens just like adding tunnels to their castles.
That age of 400 is only for "Ice", but Dragonstone Castle is a bit older. In our crude timeline above, we see that Dragonstone Castle has been in Westeros for at least 600 years.
I may be wrong, but I believe this makes the outpost on Dragonstone old enough to have supplied every Westerosi household's VS blade. "Hearts bane" is the one that always comes to my mind, because I like Winston Churchill Samwell Tarly. It's 500 years old, and well within that margin.
The only blade older than Heartsbane I can think of is Dawn, but that is likely because I am a Dayne-supremacist. LOL
And of course, Dawn is not Valyrian-steel, and predates not only the Doom, but the rise of Valyria as well.
Can't disagree with any of that... and so, you are starting to convince me that maybe there is less of a mystery than I thought. I had always pictured thousands of years of trade between Valyria and Westeros, but clearly the evidence speaks against it.
So yes, I definitely agree Targs had little and less to do with the manufacture of VS.
I do have a crackpot that the lesser houses, the bannermen to Dragonstone, are descendants of the original colonists of Dragonstone, but it isn't very polished. In that head-canon, I imagine Houses Celtigar and Velaryon were the actual builders and traders that made Dragonstone into a viable outpost for the Freehold.
In their ranks, there may have been some smiths like Tobho Mott who could rework VS, but I don't think that even they would have been able to create it. I think VS is unique because it was forged in the Fourteen Flames.
But the noble Targaryens, no. No skilled labour to be found there... and good luck finding one that isn't trying to fuck his sister. LOL
I think this actually makes a lot of sense. They are clearly from Valyria, given their looks and the fact that there was at least one Targaryen-Velaryon marriage. Let's review:
And when the Doom cametwelve years later, the Targaryens were the only dragonlords to survive.
Dragonstone had been the westernmost outpost of Valyrian power for two centuries. Its location athwart the Gullet gave its lords a stranglehold on Blackwater Bay, and enabled both the Targaryens and their close allies, the Velaryons of Driftmark (a lesser house of Valyrian descent), to fill their coffers off the passing trade. Velaryon ships, along with those of another allied Valyrian house, the Celtigars of Claw Isle, dominated the middle reaches of the narrow sea, whilst the Targaryens ruled the skies with their dragons.
So all three houses are of Valyrian descent and are allied, but only the Targaryens are dragonlords. That very much implies that the other houses must have had other skills. Also- this passage refers to the time of the Doom, so this alliance was already in place when the Targs moved to DS. The passage below also emphasizes the very close bond between Targs and Velaryons:
The Aegon who is known to history as Aegon the Conqueror and Aegon the Dragon was born onDragonstone in 27 BC. He was the only son, and second child, of Aerion, Lord of Dragonstone, and Lady Valaena of House Velaryon, herself half-Targaryen on her mother’s side.
Wow, really? Aegon the Conqueror was half Velaryon! And in the same passage we learn of a second Targ-Velaryon marriage, the one that produced his mother. So this was apparently a common thing, and at the time of Aegon's birth, House Velaryon was really half-Targ and vice versa.
This he showed for the first time at the Aegonfort, the crude wood-and-earth castle he had raisedatop what was henceforth and forever known as Aegon’s High Hill. Having taken a dozen castles and secured the mouth of the Blackwater Rush on both sides of the river, he commanded the lords he had defeated to attend him. There they laid their swords at his feet, and Aegon raised them up and confirmed them in their lands and titles. To his oldest supporters he gave new honors. Daemon Velaryon, Lord of the Tides, was made master of ships, in command of the royal fleet. Triston Massey, Lord of Stonedance, was named master of laws, Crispian Celtigar master of coin. And Orys Baratheon he proclaimed to be “my shield, my stalwart, my strong right hand.” Thus Baratheon is reckoned by the maesters the first King’s Hand.
Clearly the relationship is still great after the Conquest. (Also it's sad to see how far back the Targaryen-Baratheon friendship/alliance went, knowing what became of it.)
Ok, I am thinking maybe we should move this discussion to another thread. Sorry, everyone else, we may have gotten a little sidetracked..
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
As pieceofgosa pointed out in the Casting thread, it hard to imagine innocent intentions behind the distribution of VS blades.
1. They are sentient.
2. They are created with arcane sorcery.
3. Within centuries after accepting them into their castles, kingdoms that had been sovereign nations for millennia bent the knee to sentient manifestations of that same arcane sorcery.
Men are dumb, so when they see a sword that is cooler than their old one, they want it. Nevermind the Trojan Horse warning on the label, and the license to carry that relinquishes all sovereignty.
We saw this play out among the Jaenshi in ASTNKM! as well. Those who accepted NeKroll's rifles were forever changed by them. They were alienated from their old gods, and could only survive in the human world.
Valyrians pulled the same trick on Westerosi lordlings.
I only know that because I made the same assumption. LOL
In the early iteration of Ice=Dawn, I proposed that the Others returned once Ned defeated Arthur Dayne, because "Ice" triumphed over "Dawn".
I was corrected. LOL
But the distinction helped me flesh out the theory, and it makes more sense now I think (the office of SotM being defeated by a Magnar of Winter/son of BtB).
I agree that he would name it Ice and use it to dispense justice... but, I also think that when he passes it down to his son (if not before), Rickon would explain to him how his own father had a sword named Ice that was lost when he went south. He would explain that thisIce was made after the Long Night ended, to replace it. In other words, I would like there to be a story of how at least the latest Ice was lost. The Lannisters know their VS sword was lost when Gerion took it to Valyria (How was this possible, by the way? Wouldn't the sword have gone to Tywin, the heir?), and Dark Sister went to the Wall with BR. Blackfyre was taken by that branch of the family, and was presumably lost in Essos. ETc. Some sort of story like that is all I ask.
LOL, it seems we both stopped discussing show-related news long ago.
I agree that Ice seems a weird name for a VS sword; however, I never claimed that the current Ice was the original. It is clearly stated in the text that it's a replacement for a previous sword named Ice. So that seems like a reasonable explanation.
Regarding your main point - are you suggesting the Last Hero turned his cloak after he helped end the Long Night, or that he caused the LN as Night's King and ended it as the Last Hero? In either case, are you saying the Others gave him Ice? Which then helped bring back the dawn? Wouldn't that be a terrible move by the Others?
As a side point, I'm pretty sure they had kings before the long night. After all, they froze in their castles just like the smallfolk in their huts.
Re my main point, tis all in the current OP. (I moved our posts here to Ice=Dawn)
LH did not end the Long Night. LH's name was lost to history.
NK did not end the Long Night. NK's name was lost to history.
We assume LH ended the Long Night because of tales of Azor Ahai and Edric Shadowchaser, but we are never actually told that he did.
What we are told is that the LH set out to win back what the armies of men had lost, with twelve companions.
Like the NK, he was the thirteenth of a group of 13... but I digress.
LH was alive near the start of the Long Night. We know this because he set out to get help from the cotf.
Then we have another story that seems to pick up after his, of a man named Brandon the Builder who built the Wall.
It makes sense to build a wall once an army has secured territory, thus I assume LH was successful in learning some magics that could aid men in this pursuit.
Then, we have another story that seems to pick up after BtB's, of a man who became the Night's King. He glimpsed a moon-colored woman with stars for eyes from atop the Wall, and resided at the Nightfort.
Interestingly, in the NK's tale, the Others are still very much alive and well and a contemporary presence, to whom NK could make sacrifices.
Thus, I believe we are given 3 very clear identities/characters at 3 very clear moments in history.
1. Pre-Wall: The Last Hero 2: The Wall: Brandon the Builder 3: Post-Wall: The Night's King
Many readers assume (wrongly, in my opinion) that these three men are different people, separated in history by generations, or even centuries of time.
But the cold hard canon is on my side. Come, slip into my sea of warm milk...
"The Others," Old Nan agreed. "Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks." Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, "So, child. This is the sort of story you like?"
The Long Night, the one in which the Others came, into which the Last Hero ventured, within which the Builder built the Wall, and of which the Night's King ruled... the Long Night lasted a single generation.
One generation is plenty of time for personal growth, new titles, and GRRM's quintessential identity crises.
And in the time of a single generation, we have the Last Hero, Brandon the Builder, and the Night's King.
And to your other point... while the petty kings of the First Men were freezing in their castles, one man was feeling quite empowered by the cold, and using it to rise to power.
To this day, his children sleep safe and sound in a place where winter can be survived, and call themselves the Kings of Winter.
That feeling when you realize your head-canon was off by a few millennia... LOL. Thanks for setting it straight, I really thought it was much older. Probably b/c it has those tunnels, similar to WF and the Nightfort, both of which are ancient. But then, the Red Keep also has tunnels underneath and throughout, so I guess Valyrians/Targaryens just like adding tunnels to their castles.
Timelines were always a weakness of mine, so I've been studying them quite earnestly. I should add some of this to that thread, now that I think of it.
Re the tunnels, at Dragonstone, they could also be due to the presence of firewyrms:
"The tale of our beginnings. If you would be one of us, you had best know who we are and how we came to be. Men may whisper of the Faceless Men of Braavos, but we are older than the Secret City. Before the Titan rose, before the Unmasking of Uthero, before the Founding, we were. We have flowered in Braavos amongst these northern fogs, but we first took root in Valyria, amongst the wretched slaves who toiled in the deep mines beneath the Fourteen Flames that lit the Freehold's nights of old. Most mines are dank and chilly places, cut from cold dead stone, but the Fourteen Flames were living mountains with veins of molten rock and hearts of fire. So the mines of old Valyria were always hot, and they grew hotter as the shafts were driven deeper, ever deeper. The slaves toiled in an oven. The rocks around them were too hot to touch. The air stank of brimstone and would sear their lungs as they breathed it. The soles of their feet would burn and blister, even through the thickest sandals. Sometimes, when they broke through a wall in search of gold, they would find steam instead, or boiling water, or molten rock. Certain shafts were cut so low that the slaves could not stand upright, but had to crawl or bend. And there were wyrms in that red darkness too." "Earthworms?" she asked, frowning. "Firewyrms. Some say they are akin to dragons, for wyrms breathe fire too. Instead of soaring through the sky, they bore through stone and soil. If the old tales can be believed, there were wyrms amongst the Fourteen Flames even before the dragons came. The young ones are no larger than that skinny arm of yours, but they can grow to monstrous size and have no love for men."
I can't help but wonder if we'll be seeing more of them someday. You know how much GRRM likes worms under noble houses.
Can't disagree with any of that... and so, you are starting to convince me that maybe there is less of a mystery than I thought. I had always pictured thousands of years of trade between Valyria and Westeros, but clearly the evidence speaks against it.
I think such assumptions are not at all without merit, and completely intentional on the part of our author. I think he's made Valyria and its dragonlords appear quite important, in spite of their tangential role in Westerosi history and the Long Night.
The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.
While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarians hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume,A Dance with Dragons.
The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.
Dany and the dragons are just another distraction.
I think this actually makes a lot of sense. They are clearly from Valyria, given their looks and the fact that there was at least one Targaryen-Velaryon marriage. Let's review:
Great stuff! I'll dig in when I have more time. The origins of House Stark's Valyrian version of Ice is just as interesting to me as the loss of the original.
Quick note that SlyWren might appreciate, it just occurred to me that Ned took no pleasure in killing with his Valyrian steel sword, just as Jon takes no pleasure in wielding Longclaw.
Might they have felt differently wielding a milkglass blade?
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
As pieceofgosa pointed out in the Casting thread, it hard to imagine innocent intentions behind the distribution of VS blades.
1. They are sentient.
2. They are created with arcane sorcery.
3. Within centuries after accepting them into their castles, kingdoms that had been sovereign nations for millennia bent the knee to sentient manifestations of that same arcane sorcery.
You might be on to something with the idea that the blades are sentient.
“Dark Sister was made for nobler tasks than slaughtering sheep,” he is reported to have told the Lord of the Tides. “She has a thirst for blood.” But it was not rebellion that the rogue prince had in mind; he saw another path to power.
"Come, Lyn," chided Redfort in a softer tone. "This will serve for nought. Put Lady Forlorn to bed." "My lady has a thirst," Ser Lyn insisted. "Whenever she comes out to dance, she likes a drop of red."
Now Daemon and Lyn could just be using poetic language or are they simply aware of their blades?
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
You might be on to something with the idea that the blades are sentient.
“Dark Sister was made for nobler tasks than slaughtering sheep,” he is reported to have told the Lord of the Tides. “She has a thirst for blood.” But it was not rebellion that the rogue prince had in mind; he saw another path to power.
"Come, Lyn," chided Redfort in a softer tone. "This will serve for nought. Put Lady Forlorn to bed." "My lady has a thirst," Ser Lyn insisted. "Whenever she comes out to dance, she likes a drop of red."
Now Daemon and Lyn could just be using poetic language or are they simply aware of their blades?
Definitely more than poetic language. It is a very real feeling people have when wielding Valyrian steel. As markg171 pointed out:
It's funny, but a lot of people in the thread are ripping the idea that Dawn or Valyrian steel swords are possibly sentient. This is despite the fact that we're given passages like these
"The sword is quick," Tarly snapped. "That is the nature of Valyrian steel. Stronger than most men? Aye. She's a freak of nature, far be it from me to deny it."
And then Qhorin's sword was coming at him and somehow Longclaw leapt upward to block
We're literally told by a man who's wielded VS for decades that his sword is quick by nature, and Jon somehow is quicker and able to deflect blows without consciously doing it. The surface explanation is simply that lighter sword = quicker user, but what would be so hard to understand that it's just the sword actually moving itself too?
And I must again reference the song of The Dornishman's Wife, which seems to be sung from the point of view of the Sword, rather than the adulterer. Lighbringer vibes galore, and it happens to be sheathed in the south.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Well I am so glad you asked! The short answer is, not exactly...
Have another look at the verbiage used to describe the manner in which the Night's King became a leader:
As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well. (A Storm of Swords - Bran IV)
Note the absence of a proper title, aside from the "Night's King". He was the "thirteenth man to lead" the NW, but is not named in the tale as a "Lord Commander".
That is the sort of omission that a subtle writer like GRRM uses to great effect to lull us into a false assumption.
We assume the Night's King was the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but in all of canon, he is never once named as such. Not once.
Instead, we only given this nonspecific statement upon which to build our own assumptions. If I told you that Gared was the last man to lead Ser Waymar Royce's expedition (in the Prologue of A Game of Thrones), would you disagree?
His commander was of course the sable-cloaked lordling, Ser Waymar Royce.
Until tonight. Something was different tonight. There was an edge to this darkness that made his hackles rise. Nine days they had been riding, north and northwest and then north again, farther and farther from the Wall, hard on the track of a band of Wildling raiders. Each day had been worse than the day that had come before it. Today was the worst of all. A cold wind was blowing out of the north, and it made the trees rustle like living things. All day, Will had felt as though something were watching him, something cold and implacable that loved him not. Gared had felt it too. Will wanted nothing so much as to ride hellbent for the safety of the Wall, but that was not a feeling to share with your commander. Especially not a commander like this one.
(Prologue - A Game of Thrones)
Clearly, Ser Waymar Royce was the first man to lead this expedition. Once he died at the hands of an Other, one could make the case that Will began to act of his own accord, and was thus commanding a party of one, as he wondered if he was then the sole survivor.
We know from the following chapter, Bran I AGOT, that Gared survived however, and led himself to a small holdfast near Winterfell.
Thus, when one man to lead the Night's Watch dies, another assumes the lead role. We see this many times throughout the story. Another example is that of Qhorin, Stonesnake, and Jon. The two elder veterans die, leaving Jon in charge of his own ranging.
Thus, I submit to you that rather than be the "thirteenth" man in a pre-defined LINE of succession, the Night's King was simply emerged as the "thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch" due to the deaths of his sworn brothers.
If this leadership-via-survival interpretation rings a bell, that is because:
"Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—" (A Game of Thrones - Bran IV)
The man known as "the Last Hero" also happened to have been the thirteenth man to lead a party of rangers that sound a lot like the Night's Watch.
Two "thirteenth" men, whom happened to have led parties that included a dozen companions... each of which is remembered in tales heard at a woman's tit... each of which is not given the title of "Lord Commander"... AND, each of which seems to have had a name that was lost to history.
The passage above from Bran III ASoS continues:
He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.
I already talked about the noteworthiness of the fact that each 13th Brother's name seems to have been omitted from Westerosi oral history, so I want to direct your attention to another detail.
13 years.
During that 13-year tenure, the Night's King made sacrifices to the Others. This means that he lived during the Long Night, before the Battle for the Dawn.
After the Long Night and the Battle for the Dawn, there would have been no Others around to whom he might sacrifice.
This tells us that the 13-year tenure of the Night's King occurred during the Long Night.
And, this 13-year period fits nicely within the time contraints we are given for the Long Night's duration...
"The Others," Old Nan agreed. "Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks." Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, "So, child. This is the sort of story you like?" (A Game of Thrones - Bran IV)
Mull that over a bit. Do you see what I see?
The length of a 'Generation' is defined by women. It is marked by the average age of women who are bearing children.
Can you guess how long a 'Generation' would have been during the Long Night?
More than 13, I would guess, but not more than 25. In our modern, real world, a generation is marked as 25 years. But we have the advantage of far lower infant/mother mortality rates. In Westeros, during a time of severe hardship, it would have been far closer to 13. 16-17 years feels right.
Anyway, the exact number matters not. What is important, imo, is the fact that the Long Night lasted a single, human generation, and, the Night's King reigned during 13 years of that generation.
AND... during that SAME GENERATION... "the Last Hero" became the sole survivor of a group of thirteen rangers.
Therefore, the books tell us two tales of 'Thirteenth Men' who ended up leading groups of rangers in a span of the single human generation-long Winter known as "The Long Night".
They might well be two different men, but at a certain point, it seems far simpler and more logical to view them as one and the same.
If they are one and the same, we are given several strong hints as to that man's identity...
Firstly, there is trusty Old Nan. She tells us that the Night's King was a Stark of Winterfell, whose name might have been Brandon:
"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room." (A Storm of Swords - Bran IV)
Secondly, there is a tale that is "not worth repeating" in the fictional book compiled for Robert Baratheon by Maester Yandel:
Their song and music was said to be as beautiful as they were, but what they sang of is not remembered save in small fragments handed down from ancient days. Maester Childer's Winter's Kings, or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water. The manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of the children is a tale in itself, and not worth repeating here. But it seems clear that their speech originated, or drew inspiration from, the sounds they heard every day. (The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Dawn Age)
By whom was Brandon "taken"? A question for another day.
What is important about this quote is that it attributes an act of the Last Hero to a man named Brandon, of Winterfell.
And this raises the candidacy of a third man who ventured into the frozen dead lands during the Long Night (Brandon, the Last Hero, and the Night's King), and the second man who is said to have sought aid from the children of the forest during the Long Night (Brandon and the Last Hero).
Thus, in the span of a single, Westerosi Generation, we are told of Brandon the Builder, the Last Hero, and the Night's King... all of whom might have led the Watch, all of whom might have escaped the Others, and all of whom might have had direct ties to Winterfell.
It is my belief that "Brandon Stark" is the man who survived and rose to power during the single generation of the Long Night. His noble deeds are remembered, favorably, in the annals of history as tales of "Brandon the Builder". His rise to power, and the deaths of his companions, are cloaked in mystery, but still recited somewhat favorably, in the annals of history as tales of "The Last Hero". His misdeeds, sacrilege, and lust for power, are completely obfuscated, but still remembered, in the tales of the "Night's King".
His name remains loosely associated with the acts of the Last Hero (see the World Book), and his name was redacted from his tenure as the Night's King – but even then, his name remains associated...
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Dawn forged from the "heart of a fallen star", Lightbringer forged from the heart of Nissa Nissa. Was Nissa Nissa a fallen star, aka a Dayne?
Not that I'm aware of. I've oft interpreted the Nissa Nissa tale to be a bastardized version of the original story, but the Nissa Nissa = Dayne Woman idea makes a lot of sense with the sentient sword idea that markg171 brought up on one of these last pages of comments.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
The closest thing I can remember to what you've suggested is that I used to call Ashara the Nissa Nissa of Starfall, and the Palestone Sword tower the Lightbringer that killed her.
... but admittedly, that was all far less literal. Nissa Nissa as a real woman of House Dayne, killed by Dawn, makes a lot of sense in my head canon.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."