The Crown of Blue Winter Roses

YUP! My current theory is that Tywin had a role, like Baelish did in the War of the 5 Kings.: thelasthearth.com/thread/879/tywin-lyanna-porcupine-knight



Exactly. We only have hearsay. And the one time we get Rehear talking about the war to Jaime, Lyanna is not even mentioned. Not even though of by Jaime, either.



I will have to come back to this in a bit, but want to say YES!!!! This is a big issue. And as for anyone in the tower--lots of people could be in there. If Rhaegar and Ashara are Dany's parents per markg171's fDany thread then that would explain the kingsguard no problem.

Or, no one's in the tower and the kingsguard rode out into the pass to head off Ned and his men before they could get to where they were going. As the Stony Dornish have (according to the World Book) done in the past when facing an invading/opposing force.

Will be back for more on this soon.

I think this one is very simple to be honest.



Lyanna (by name) calls him "Eddard" first. Which is perfectly reasonable. The second "Lord Eddard" is Vayon Poole (the man echoing in the dark), trying to wake him up. When Ned dreams Lyanna calling him "Lord Eddard" he's starting to wake up and blending what his ears are actually hearing into the dream.

Does it? We don't really know how Lyanna regularly addressed him. We have that "dearest Ned" line, but that's an interesting context. She's talking to him there as if she's the older and more experienced one -- she's talking down to him, and that could be as much a kind of vocal pat on the head as sibling affection.



Robert generally uses "Ned", but when he asks to go to the crypt to see Lyanna, he uses "Eddard" instead. I certainly don't think we can conclude that Lyanna wouldn't us Eddard in a moment of high emotion.

However it's clear that "Eddard" is a lot less formal than "Lord Eddard". That's what Poole calls him, and that's what the voice in the dream says second, when it segues into Poole's voice. Thus it's someone else's voice that just calls him "Eddard" in the dream, and Ned identifies that voice as being Lyanna's. Why would he identify it as Lyanna if it wasn't Lyanna and Lyanna wasn't there?

You seem to be proposing a kind of double-merging, where Ned first merges a memory that wasn't part of the ToJ narrative with his ToJ dream, and then secondly merges the real-world voice of Poole into that merged dream-voice. That's complicated enough, but to then propose that the voice he thinks of as Lyanna doesn't belong there and ALSO wasn't Lyanna because it's too formal for her seems like an overly-complicated assumption to draw from not much. I can buy the former concept, that Lyanna wasn't at the Tower but Ned merged that memory of her calling out to him into his dream of the ToJ, though I don't favour it. I'm puzzled where you're going if you also contend that the voice wasn't Lyanna's at all.

Just found this. I don't really have anything to add in addition to what's been said, but I'd just like to nit-pick over this point: I don't think we have a dearth of information concerning the rebellion - not compared to most event prior to the start of ASOIAF. Rather, what we have is a plethora of conflicting tidbits of information. Thus, we certainly need to be aware of our assumptions as we interpret the data in our various ways.

Forgive me, but I'm not seeing what Robert's high emotion word-choice has to do with Lyanna's.

Lyanna called her brother "Ned," not "Eddard." And we certainly seem to agree that "Lord Eddard" is even more peculiar coming from her...and that it did not. At a time of weakness, when her voice was barely more than a whisper, it seems unlikely to me that she would waste her breath on the formal syllables, let alone scream them.

It seems highly likely to me that there were people saying "Eddard!" and "Lord Eddard!" when he was despondent and holding his sister's body.

Makes me wonder about the They, and if Ashara was one of them.



Well, we don't know when the calling happened, so no, am not proposing anything concrete really. But it does seem that someone using more formal terms of address may have called him.

But yes, I agree the discrepancy applies at toj or Starfall - equally.



And I agree. What does not make sense, is leaving an expectant mother at the tower of joy. Pregnancy takes time...plenty of time to find suitable maternity quarters, and a maester to attend the birth.

It would not at all seem weird storytelling if Lyanna were instead at Starfall, attended by a maester. It would make completely sense of the non-literal fever dream, while strengthening the narrative with some much needed practicality.

The KG were three total badass dudes. But unless one of them was lactating or an experienced midwife, I'm not seeing what help they could offer Lyanna.



Yup. Here, we will have to agree to disagree.

In your mind, it makes no sense for the KG to be at the tower unless they are guarding something or someone.

In my mind, it makes no sense for the KG to guard Lyanna or Jon from Ned, and it makes even less sense to put a pregnant woman in a tower that Ned could pull down himself.

The war was over. Ned was searching for his presumed-dead sister. On Lyanna's trail, he crossed paths with Arthur Dayne. Makes sense to me. And the capitalized names matter more to me than the non, I guess that makes me a bit of an elitist on this particular topic.

While the tower of joy is significant, what is far more significant to me is that Ned left KL in a cold rage, and found Lyanna.

He killed Arthur Dayne, returned Dawn to Starfall, and returned home with a bastard and Lyanna's body. If we stop getting hung up on the informal naming of a tower long fallen, the sequence of events seems rather suggestive.



Yup. We actually agree quite a bit on this. I would only quibble over the fact that we have to invent other people to populate the tower of joy memories, whom Ned does not remember being at the tower of joy.

Starfall requires no such invention, thus I find it simpler.



Well, it is worth noting that the tower of joy is never once mentioned in the dream narrative....

It is ONLY mentioned in Ned's separate testimony...

And when it's mentioned, Lyanna is not.

Ah. Now I getcha.

Still, I don't really see a reason to assume Lyanna did the same, but I do follow your reasoning.

As I said from the beginning, that is Ned's actual name after all. So Lyanna could certainly have called him by it. The formality seems a bit odd, particularly the "Lord Eddard" level of formality. And yes, I also agree that the latter could have been/was simply Vayon speaking to Ned. Makes perfect sense.

But, I must admit the assumption leaves me with the feeling I am being haunted by GRRM's subtle and purposeful obfuscation.



Well, I would argue the dream does not place her there by any definitive measure. Far from it. It is suggestive, but so is the SSM that advises against literal interpretation. So, this too remains in the ether of conjecture.

Still, I completely understand your assertion. After all, Lyanna Stark's page in the Westeros.org wiki states:


Do you see what I see? The wiki assumes much and more... but before we recap the text, as published, let's recap the tower of joy page in the wiki:


Do you see what I see? The tower of joy wiki rather brazenly states that Lyanna was in the tower, dying. But before we look at what GRRM actually wrote in A Game of Thrones, let's look at another passage from the wiki of Westeros, also on the tower of joy page:

The tower was named the tower of joy by Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. He used it as a hideout where he kept Lyanna Stark.

Wait... what?!

They know all of that?

Is GRRM that informative?

No. We already know he is not...

• A Game of Thrones - Eddard X
  
  As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

And, well, that's it.


Somehow, from that paragraph, one can ascertain that Ned found Lyanna inside the tower of joy, and Lyanna also died inside of the tower of joy, and, that Rhaegar used it as a hideout where he kept Lyanna. Talk about reading between the lines!

ALL of that from hearing Lyanna screaming in one sentence. And from hearing "Eddard!" called in another sentence. Two sentences in a fever dream that somehow demonstrate a rather detailed set of scenarios.

Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy where the 3 KG fought, yet, those two sentences do not place Lyanna inside of that place.



For all we know, Ned had dragons and maesters guiding his hand. But such musings are far from what the book actually states.

No midwife is mentioned in the text. No maternity quarters are mentioned in the text. No multi-roomed watchtower is mentioned in the text. Nor are ten horses mentioned in the text (only Ned's men are on horseback, which would be seven, and we do not know how many of those seven survived). No army nearby is mentioned in the text either, nor are the siege of engineers.

We can certainly imagine them being present, but that is all we are doing. GRRM has not placed anything of the sort at place Rhaegar had named a tower of joy. Instead, all that GRRM placed there were three knights of the kingsguard, Ned's half dozen companions, and a structure Ned could pull down after nearly dying in combat with Arthur Dayne. We are told the structure had enough rocks with which to build eight cairns, and that it was capable of being pulled down for that purpose alone...

And, lastly, we are told that only Ned and Howland had lived to ride away.

I am creating no problems. I am only relying upon the text as published, and puzzling out those pieces without adding any of my own invention.



Indeed. And here, I think we'll agree quite a bit. I think the KG went to that spot because they knew Ned was headed for that spot. They wanted to die in battle, but the war was over. So they went where they could find a fight.



Again, we agree. Definitely not the KG vow. And GRRM is entirely cognizant that his experienced fantasy readers will be looking for such clues. Yet, he adds just enough ambiguity to make us wonder, while at the same time adding just enough cliche to make us leap to conclusions.

And I could not agree more that Ned and Arthur find themselves in the midst of the greatest regrettable situation a Stark and Dayne have faced since Ice became Dawn.



They swore a vow.

And, I mean, it's the way warriors want to die. What better way to die than to fall to a usurper named Stark? From the KG povs', Ned's crew could have been a godsend. An Old Gods-send, of course.



Kneel?

Kneel to a man other than the king they had sworn allegiance? ...who was of course Rhaegar, not Aerys, but that's another topic.

And, nothing to fight for? No, they had honor to fight for. They could die fighting, like men... or kneel like turncloaks.

Their knees do not bend easily, then (for Aerys) or now (for Eddard).



I think so. Clearly, an interception or intersection took place. Ned was traveling south. It was said (quotative) that Rhaegar had named a certain structure on a ridge in the Red Mountains the "tower of joy" and so, they likely figured Ned would overhear that bit of hearsay. Hell, they might have even been the first to spread the rumor. No telling.

And really, that's my point. I'm certain of nothing, but for some reason, folks are certain Lyanna was sequestered in the tower of joy by Rhaegar Targaryen, where she died, in spite of there being no textual cause for the certainty.

What I find rewarding is the discussion itself. Like the one you and I are having. The Lyanna@toj idea has been done to death, in spite of the lack of textual evidence. So I see no reason to plow over it again. If we are to gain new insights, we must explore new territory.

It just so happens that this territory is not new at all. It is simply the text as published in 1996.



LOL! Yes you did make that point already.

But no, Ned tells us his reasoning, at least in part:


So Ned was on a quest, and learned that Rhaegar had named the place, and so, he investigated.

I think the KG were counting on that investigation, but that's beside the point. Ned investigated, and his investigation was bitter.

Would you describe the place you found your sister upon her deathbed as "bitter"? Somehow, I think not.



Starfall doesn't require their invention. Starfall, unlike the tower of joy, is a castle belonging to one of the oldest houses in Westeros.

We've seen such a house before, in Winterfell. Wouldn't it seem odd if Starfall were a ghost town?



Well, as I pointed out above, we have no reference at all of Lyanna being at the tower long fallen. What we do have, is a group of people who discover Ned holding her body:

• A Game of Thrones - Eddard I
  "She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."
  "I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

Now never mind that Robert just described the house in which Dany grew up, we should note that Ned tells Robert she did not want to rest in a place under a fruit tree (such as we might find in Dorne, except for the Red Mountains). She wanted to come home, to rest beside the men that Rhaegar's father had murdered...

Wait... shouldn't she want to be cremated at the Trident? I mean, she loved Rhaegar, right?

Why does she want to go home and rest beside the brother that was executed because he wanted to kill Rhaegar?

And shouldn't Lyanna be screaming "Eddard!" instead of crying "Ned" in a voice that is faint as a whisper?  I think this illustrates the difference between reality and dream.

We can assume the existence of servants a-plenty in a tower on a ridge in the Red Mountains that Ned could pull down himself after nearly dying in combat with Arthur Dayne, or, we can assume Lyanna died in a place where Howland Reed could be accompanied without such musings.



Yup. And the only part that Ned says was accurate from the dream are the combatants. And, GRRM reaffirms this twice, while neglecting Lyanna:

• A Game of Thrones - Eddard X
  He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.
  In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man's memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.
  They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

No it doesn't. All the dream says about Lyanna is that she screamed "Eddard!" ...below:


That's it. No location. And, it's a dream! While Ned affirms the veracity of the combatants, he does not affirm Lyanna's proximity or presence at the combat.

What stands out to me, is that Ned's subconscious would imagine his sister screaming "Eddard!" as he came together in a rush of steel and shadow with Ser Arthur Dayne.

Why isn't Ned haunted by the death of Rhaegar Targaryen, if that was Lyanna's love?

Why does Ned associate Lyanna's screaming with Arthur Dayne?

Why does Ned associate Lyanna's screaming with his own act of killing Arthur, instead of Robert's act of killing Rhaegar?

(I must note for the purpose of discussion that the show highlighted this same conflict for Ned: the killing of Arthur Dayne.)



Actually, I question even that. But, the line, "In the dream as it had been in life" does make Arthur's presence plausible.

• A Game of Thrones - Eddard X
  In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man's memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.
  They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

The cairns for the dead add to that...

• A Game of Thrones - Eddard X
  "I gave them over to the silent sisters, to be sent north to Winterfell. Jory would want to lie beside his grandfather."
  It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

The above also seems to suggest that the tower Ned pulled down was on a ridge. Again, not a place one leaves a noble and pregnant child-woman of surpassing loveliness...unless they intended for her to die.

The return of Dawn to Starfall also seems to support the veracity of the combat, as somehow, Ned came into possession of Dawn:

• A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II
  That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

And I must ask, what narrative purpose does Starfall serve? Why include the return of Dawn at all? Why include Dawn in the first place?

While we might wonder at their import, I don't think one could reasonably assert that they are less important than a tower of joy that is mentioned but once in the course of five novels. Jon is connected directly to Starfall by Catelyn and Cersei, and is associated with Dayne parentage in both cases.

Why?

Well because both women assume that Ned fathered Jon. What paragon of honor would purposefully dishonor his own name by such a ruse? Thus, both women make their assumptions... but not without reason. Might be because Ned returned to Winterfell with a bastard, after having visited Starfall. Might be because Jon is dark where his brother is fair. Might be because Jon is shaped like a slender swordsman, where his half brother was muscular. Graceful and quick, like a swordsman, instead of strong and fast.



Well, it's not like he gave it a formal name, KM. As I said upthread, if I call a 69 Chevy Nova a "car of joy" that does not mean the name of the vehicle is the "Car of Joy." It is still a 69 Chevy Nova (and likely so full of rust, I could destroy it myself).

If the tower long fallen were properly named, why is it not capitalized in the novels? Elio and Linda have capitalized it since, in the App and Wiki, but it remains an improper noun in the novels. Such things may not matter to avid fans, but they matter to authors and editors. Thus, the tower was named a "tower of joy" by Rhaegar, but it seems it was a casual superlative. And who knows how many towers Rhaegar associated with "joy"?



The circumstances themselves seem rather apparent, but we have very little information upon which to base any conjecture, unfortunately. It does seem it was somewhat common knowledge in the region in which Ned learned of the tower, as he says "it was said" that Rhaegar had described it as such. "It was said" is an important qualifier. In linguistics, such a qualifier is known as a quotative. Thus, rather than be some secret location, it seems likely Ned learned of hearsay and rumor that directed him to the tower in the Red Mountains. Another way to state the same sentiment would be, "Reportedly, Rhaegar had named it the tower of joy."

Thus, we are left to wonder from what sources did Ned learn of the outpost. I've heard folks suggest Ethan Glover, as he was Brandon's squire, but I see no reason to assume it was Ethan. It seems common knowledge that Rhaegar had returned from the south before dying at the Trident, so it seems logical Ned would go south considering he was rumored to have abducted his sister.



Like beauty, echoes/inversions/parallels are in the eye of the beholder my friend. And I should mention that I love your MMD tent analysis. I just think it applies more to Dany than Jon... but that is another discussion. Still, I love your MMD tent analysis.

How can I reconcile that love with my healthy skepticism of toj vs Starfall? It's rather easy. Neither is a place that is ever described in any great detail aside from Ned.

Ned Stark, and Ned Dayne. Ned the Stark pulled down one, and restored the other (by returning Dawn). Unless he made a return trip to Dorne afterward (possible), or returned Dawn after finding Jon (also possible), it seems he returned from Starfall with a bastard (most plausible, imo).