Post by kingmonkey on Jun 14, 2016 18:58:58 GMT
First of all, I really enjoyed this post kingmonkey . If only all conversations on the topic could be this respectful.
In the dream? Oh yes, I completely agree. That was my original point. In the dream, Ned hears Lyanna call out "Eddard!" and "Lord Eddard," which seem rather formal.
It is a dream, and dreams can merge multiple people and locations.
The change from "Eddard" to "Lord Eddard" is clear, and that change is emphasised by having the words "echoed" by Poole. That transition indicates a point in which the dream starts to merge with reality. Someone other than Poole called him Eddard in the dream, and he identifies that voice as Lyanna. I can see no reason to doubt that identification, whether Lyanna was actually at the tower or not, so I think the question you raise as to whether "Eddard" is too formal is a red herring. It's not, it's Lyanna.
But it should be noted that Starfall also happens to be sandwiched between the mountains of Dorne.
All true. Sounds like we agree that the existence of a fortified structure (like a watchtower) with additional features (like rooms) must be created by the reader in order to make the tower of joy work as Lyanna's location.
It also sounds like we agree that the presence of additional people (like soldiers, engineers, maesters, midwives, and/or wetnurses, etc) must also be created by the reader in order to make the tower of joy work as Lyanna's location.
As for all those additional people? Certainly the "They" suggests there was more than one person present (though we can doubt even that, GRRM slips up sometimes). Do we need as many as you suggest though? Even leaving aside the possibility that the meeting took place before the fight and some of the the "they" were KG, I don't think so. Why not a single midwife? We know so little of the situation surrounding the toj events that it's all guesswork. Maybe it was not the intention for Lyanna to give birth there at all, but plans went awry. It could being forced to give birth unattended is exactly why she ended up dying of a fever.
And quite true, we accept plenty of far less feasible things from GRRM on a regular basis. Starfall alleviates some of the impracticality presented by the tower of joy narrative in my mind. It is very hard for me to reconcile the location itself, the tower of joy, with the idea that Lyanna was loved.
It does not. And as you say, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. But what I said was not wrong... as Ned only names combatants at the tower of joy. Per the text, the only people named at the tower of joy were combatants.
There may have been others there who were not in the dream. "They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away" tells us that of the seven against three, only two lived. It does not preclude other people who were nearby but not part of the battle also living to ride away.
Arthur may have had regrets, but it is hard to really say based on how little we know thus far. Show-Arthur definitely conveyed regret (more than Ned, until the end). But in terms of the books, it is harder to discern. I'd like to think Arthur was regretful, but all we know is that he was defiant, armoring himself, and drawing
"Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips."
[...]
"'No,' Ned said with sadness in his voice. 'Now it ends.'"
Ned and Arthur both seem to know what's coming, and both seem to regret it. I think this ties in with Ned's regard for Arthur. He doesn't think of Arthur as an enemy, but as someone he regrets having to kill. I think it's fairly clear that Arthur felt roughly the same about Ned. They were two men of honour who found each other on opposite sides and bound by that honour to try to kill each other.
There is no testimony regarding Lyanna's presence at the tower.
Read a certain way, yes, I can see how one can draw that conclusion from the fever dream, but that is hardly testimony. That is subjective interpretation.
When you're dealing with probabilities, unreliable testimony trumps no testimony.
But would "bitter" be the first word that comes to your mind?
It seems like a bit of an odd word choice to me. I guess if feels a little shallow given the gravity of what you've described.
But still, it does seem an odd allegiance at this time. If RLJ is correct, and if the version of it is correct in which Lyanna was a ready and willing participant, it seems odd that she would now feel allegiance toward the father who betrothed her to Robert and the brother who wanted to kill Rhaegar.
Lyanna went into labor at the exact moment Ned clashed with Arthur?
I'm skeptical.
I'm kidding of course. But yes, very interesting. It is also highly interesting to me that we were introduced to that young man from Arya's POV, and that GRRM dropped him into Arya's life. Arya... of all people.
And, GRRM dropped him into Arya's life specifically for the purpose of talking about Jon Snow's parentage....
And, GRRM gave him her father's name....
Awfully interesting, and a secret which we don't yet know...
And again, it is not a proper name. Just as I might name a car a "car of joy," that does not mean the car's name is Joy.
Cat's body was dumped in a river. Ashara's in the sea. Is there a pattern?