If you're interested in seeing how the joke of the cuckolded husband would play out, and you have 2 and a half hours to kill, here's a production of The Merry Wives of Windsor:
Know what I'll be doing while ironing this weekend
Quirky Seasons: Under the sea, men marry fishes More on bluewinterroses.com
The belief of the times goes as such: that a man who saw his woman flirting or making sexual advances on another man would "grow antlers/horns" (again used interchangeably). The terminology later expanded to even if the wife had a lover in secret, that the man would be "horned".
To the Late Medieval/Early Renaissance mindset, cuckolding a husband was absolute comic gold and where a lot of their comedies, satires, and farces dwelt upon. In fact one could even take the viewpoint that Othello is a play about a black man stuck in a cynical Italian farce and due to cultural differences on the value of love, sex, and marriage than the Italians, turns it into Tragedy.
La Mandragola by Machiavelli (the same one who wrote The Prince) - The Merry Wives of Windsor by Shakespeare -
The association between having "horns" and "desire brought upon by jealousy" actually still remains with us, though we're largely unaware of it. After all, we do still say someone is "horny" to this day, which is the modern day remnant of this meaning.
This puts me in mind of the Night's King, wanting his queen. Not as a cuckolded husband (though wouldn't that be a twist) but as the desiring hunter. But instead of producing the fertility of Garth Greenhand, he produces darkness and unnatural fertility of the undead ant the Others.
Herne the Hunter and his version of the Wild Hunt have been tied to the Others a number of times. I also thinks there's an excellent chance Jon might be leading his own Wild Hunt with the Stark shades in the crypts--against the hunt of the Others. But in the case of the Night's King--it's desire overrunning his human restraint--not perfect Horned Lord, but a twisted version of him. . .. maybe.
Yup. And great post WWS. I'm struck by how much this sounds like Robert Baratheon. Like, every part of it.
And even a bit like Robert's hunt for Lyanna. He killed the dragon while wearing his horned helmet--believing himself to be cuckolded and denied by Rhaegar. A fight that led to the return of Winter and the Others--a set of hunters with their own desires, presumably.
Considering the theme of homosexuality, the horned lover aspect is equally interesting. I've been wondering how that fits into the picture.
I'm really behind and late to this convo--but any chance you'd be willing to elaborate re: what you're thinking on this point?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
The belief of the times goes as such: that a man who saw his woman flirting or making sexual advances on another man would "grow antlers/horns" (again used interchangeably). The terminology later expanded to even if the wife had a lover in secret, that the man would be "horned".
To the Late Medieval/Early Renaissance mindset, cuckolding a husband was absolute comic gold and where a lot of their comedies, satires, and farces dwelt upon. In fact one could even take the viewpoint that Othello is a play about a black man stuck in a cynical Italian farce and due to cultural differences on the value of love, sex, and marriage than the Italians, turns it into Tragedy.
La Mandragola by Machiavelli (the same one who wrote The Prince) - The Merry Wives of Windsor by Shakespeare -
The association between having "horns" and "desire brought upon by jealousy" actually still remains with us, though we're largely unaware of it. After all, we do still say someone is "horny" to this day, which is the modern day remnant of this meaning.
This puts me in mind of the Night's King, wanting his queen. Not as a cuckolded husband (though wouldn't that be a twist) but as the desiring hunter. But instead of producing the fertility of Garth Greenhand, he produces darkness and unnatural fertility of the undead ant the Others.
Herne the Hunter and his version of the Wild Hunt have been tied to the Others a number of times. I also thinks there's an excellent chance Jon might be leading his own Wild Hunt with the Stark shades in the crypts--against the hunt of the Others. But in the case of the Night's King--it's desire overrunning his human restraint--not perfect Horned Lord, but a twisted version of him. . .. maybe.
Yup. And great post WWS. I'm struck by how much this sounds like Robert Baratheon. Like, every part of it.
And even a bit like Robert's hunt for Lyanna. He killed the dragon while wearing his horned helmet--believing himself to be cuckolded and denied by Rhaegar. A fight that led to the return of Winter and the Others--a set of hunters with their own desires, presumably.
Considering the theme of homosexuality, the horned lover aspect is equally interesting. I've been wondering how that fits into the picture.
I'm really behind and late to this convo--but any chance you'd be willing to elaborate re: what you're thinking on this point?
Glad this has been kinda "bumped" SlyWren . Cool thoughts from all. Also, my "identity crisis" is kinda fixed. My phone's been letting me be sagenadia861 again... And thank you, coming from you, it means alot... :
This puts me in mind of the Night's King, wanting his queen. Not as a cuckolded husband (though wouldn't that be a twist) but as the desiring hunter. But instead of producing the fertility of Garth Greenhand, he produces darkness and unnatural fertility of the undead ant the Others.
One more bit of my head-canon that I've dumped in Heresy over the years, but have neglected here, is that if NK=BtB, there had to have been some cuckolding occurring. There was a female cuckold/cuckquean.
Brandon the Builder had, for all intents and purposes, some trueborn children and created House Stark. Unless the mother of House Stark was Night's Queen, it seems he must have had relationships with two women.
BtB's Winterfell wife would have been cuckqueaned by Night's Queen in the same way as Lady Selyse is cuckqueaned by Melisandre. I propose the Winterfell wife was a normal human being, thus the Starks are not half-human, and that the Night's Queen was inhuman. It is easy to assume NK and NQ had children together, but we are never actually told that they did.
And then, there is the sword as a phallic symbol in ASOIAF. If the Sword of the Morning took NK's magical greatsword Ice, then the SotM represents the cuckolding of NK (BtB, LH, titles titles). NK's penis/sword is taken away by another man, SotM, rendering NK powerless/impotent.
Herne the Hunter and his version of the Wild Hunt have been tied to the Others a number of times. I also thinks there's an excellent chance Jon might be leading his own Wild Hunt with the Stark shades in the crypts--against the hunt of the Others. But in the case of the Night's King--it's desire overrunning his human restraint--not perfect Horned Lord, but a twisted version of him. . .. maybe.
And even a bit like Robert's hunt for Lyanna. He killed the dragon while wearing his horned helmet--believing himself to be cuckolded and denied by Rhaegar. A fight that led to the return of Winter and the Others--a set of hunters with their own desires, presumably.
Word.
And these Other-Hunters seem to desire little and less. All they want is the end of hot-blooded vitality and fertility.
I can't help but wonder if their cold "implacability" is really just a misplaced piety, in one form or another.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Something just dawned on me. Pun intended. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but our dragons have horns, right? Wonder how this might relate to my "horns are permanent" idea. Maybe there is no definitive way to completely rid them from Planetos.
Glad this has been kinda "bumped" SlyWren . Cool thoughts from all. Also, my "identity crisis" is kinda fixed. My phone's been letting me be sagenadia861 again...
HA! I'd love to say I was being magnanimous and bumping the thread, but I'm actually so far behind that it was completely new to me.
And very glad you are back to your Riveting Rosie Self.
Something just dawned on me. Pun intended. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but our dragons have horns, right? Wonder how this might relate to my "horns are permanent" idea. Maybe there is no definitive way to completely rid them from Planetos.
I couldn't find a reference to dragons having horns in the books, only scales and spines.
Can you think of a place where Martin says they have horns?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
One more bit of my head-canon that I've dumped in Heresy over the years, but have neglected here, is that if NK=BtB, there had to have been some cuckolding occurring. There was a female cuckold/cuckquean.
Brandon the Builder had, for all intents and purposes, some trueborn children and created House Stark. Unless the mother of House Stark was Night's Queen, it seems he must have had relationships with two women.
So, you are thinking that the Stark in Winterfell was the heir or castellan? Like Robb was when Ned went south? And Bran was when Robb went south? And thus thus the heir took out the King of both the Wall and Winterfell?
That would fit with the anger--and I'm also wondering about that woman Bran sees coming out of the pool. . . was she calling for a son to avenge the husband who betrayed her???
BtB's Winterfell wife would have been cuckqueaned by Night's Queen in the same way as Lady Selyse is cuckqueaned by Melisandre. I propose the Winterfell wife was a normal human being, thus the Starks are not half-human, and that the Night's Queen was inhuman. It is easy to assume NK and NQ had children together, but we are never actually told that they did.
And the way Elia, married to the man obsessed with Summerhall, was betrayed by her husband. This time (perhaps) by a woman with stars in her family sigil???? Vs. eyes like blue stars???
And I could see the Night's Queen being similar to Mel--ancient and transformed. And thus not capable of having mortal children. Though perhaps she gave him some kind of shadows. . . Or perhaps he sacrificed his children to her.
Which would make his wife even more likely to hate him. And perhaps tie in, once again, to Rhaegar and Elia. . . Her children ultimately, if less directly, got sacrificed to his ideas.
And then, there is the sword as a phallic symbol in ASOIAF. If the Sword of the Morning took NK's magical greatsword Ice, then the SotM represents the cuckolding of NK (BtB, LH, titles titles). NK's penis/sword is taken away by another man, SotM, rendering NK powerless/impotent.
Which could tie back into the antlers and horns--the Sword of the Morning took the Night's King's original wife after throwing him down????
I can't help but wonder if their cold "implacability" is really just a misplaced piety, in one form or another.
Given the poem Martin says helped inspire the novels, that would make sense. Same with all the fanaticism we've seen, both political and religious, in the novels.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Glad this has been kinda "bumped" SlyWren . Cool thoughts from all. Also, my "identity crisis" is kinda fixed. My phone's been letting me be sagenadia861 again...
HA! I'd love to say I was being magnanimous and bumping the thread, but I'm actually so far behind that it was completely new to me.
And very glad you are back to your Riveting Rosie Self.
Something just dawned on me. Pun intended. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but our dragons have horns, right? Wonder how this might relate to my "horns are permanent" idea. Maybe there is no definitive way to completely rid them from Planetos.
I couldn't find a reference to dragons having horns in the books, only scales and spines.
Can you think of a place where Martin says they have horns?
Paging voice. I could really use a "wall of text" right now. SlyWren - cmon', Teach, gonna make me work now? -chuckling-
In my How I GoT Hooked thread, I revealed my extent of book delving... Not sure if you'd consider the attached "canon"... PS-my beloved hardcover of A Game Of Thrones was kidnapped by my brother several years ago, when word of the HBO series came out. Haven't seen it since. Perhaps me becoming e-book suave is in my very near future...- chuckling-
SlyWren - cmon', Teach, gonna make me work now? -chuckling-
HA! Very sorry. And it looks like your attachment above is right:
When Brown Ben left, she lay back on her cushions. "If you were grown," she told Drogon, scratching him between the horns, "I'd fly you over the walls and melt that harpy down to slag." But it would be years before her dragons were large enough to ride. And when they are, who shall ride them? The dragon has three heads, but I have only one. She thought of Daario. If ever there was a man who could rape a woman with his eyes . . .Storm, Dany V
Dany talks about their having horns in Dance, too. So. . dragons have horns. You nailed it.
So, no way to rid planetos of horns? Maybe. Or rid it of the desire for the violence and magic that engender dragons???
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
SlyWren - cmon', Teach, gonna make me work now? -chuckling-
HA! Very sorry. And it looks like your attachment above is right:
When Brown Ben left, she lay back on her cushions. "If you were grown," she told Drogon, scratching him between the horns, "I'd fly you over the walls and melt that harpy down to slag." But it would be years before her dragons were large enough to ride. And when they are, who shall ride them? The dragon has three heads, but I have only one. She thought of Daario. If ever there was a man who could rape a woman with his eyes . . .Storm, Dany V
Dany talks about their having horns in Dance, too. So. . dragons have horns. You nailed it.
So, no way to rid planetos of horns? Maybe. Or rid it of the desire for the violence and magic that engender dragons???
SlyWren - cmon', Teach, gonna make me work now? -chuckling-
HA! Very sorry. And it looks like your attachment above is right:
When Brown Ben left, she lay back on her cushions. "If you were grown," she told Drogon, scratching him between the horns, "I'd fly you over the walls and melt that harpy down to slag." But it would be years before her dragons were large enough to ride. And when they are, who shall ride them? The dragon has three heads, but I have only one. She thought of Daario. If ever there was a man who could rape a woman with his eyes . . .Storm, Dany V
Dany talks about their having horns in Dance, too. So. . dragons have horns. You nailed it.
So, no way to rid planetos of horns? Maybe. Or rid it of the desire for the violence and magic that engender dragons???
Dunno. There will always be "good". There will always be "bad", and "miracles"/ magic will persevere in the eyes of the beholder. It's a question of balance. Perhaps Davos and Brienne are the ones who should be the sole survivors and their basically well-balanced genes can proliferate...-rotflmao-
Paging voice. I could really use a "wall of text" right now. SlyWren - cmon', Teach, gonna make me work now? -chuckling-
LOL! I got ur back...
A Storm of Swords - Daenerys V
When Brown Ben left, she lay back on her cushions. "If you were grown," she told Drogon, scratching him between the horns, "I'd fly you over the walls and melt that harpy down to slag." But it would be years before her dragons were large enough to ride. And when they are, who shall ride them? The dragon has three heads, but I have only one. She thought of Daario. If ever there was a man who could rape a woman with his eyes . . .
A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys I
Viserion sensed her disquiet. The white dragon lay coiled around a pear tree, his head resting on his tail. When Dany passed his eyes came open, two pools of molten gold. His horns were gold as well, and the scales that ran down his back from head to tail. "You're lazy," she told him, scratching under his jaw. His scales were hot to the touch, like armor left too long in the sun. Dragons are fire made flesh. She had read that in one of the books Ser Jorah had given her as a wedding gift. "You should be hunting with your brothers. Have you and Drogon been fighting again?" Her dragons were growing wild of late. Rhaegal had snapped at Irri, and Viserion had set Reznak's tokar ablaze the last time the seneschal had called. I have left them too much to themselves, but where am I to find the time for them?
A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys IX
Above them all the dragon turned, dark against the sun. His scales were black, his eyes and horns and spinal plates blood red. Ever the largest of her three, in the wild Drogon had grown larger still. His wings stretched twenty feet from tip to tip, black as jet. He flapped them once as he swept back above the sands, and the sound was like a clap of thunder. The boar raised his head, snorting … and flame engulfed him, black fire shot with red. Dany felt the wash of heat thirty feet away. The beast's dying scream sounded almost human. Drogon landed on the carcass and sank his claws into the smoking flesh. As he began to feed, he made no distinction between Barsena and the boar.
The Princess and the Queen
Nine days after Lord Staunton dispatched his plea for help, the sound of leathern wings was heard across the sea, and the dragon Meleys appeared above Rook’s Rest. The Red Queen, she was called, for the scarlet scales that covered her. The membranes of her wings were pink, her crest, horns, and claws bright as copper. And on her back, in steel and copper armor that flashed in the sun, rode Rhaenys Targaryen, the Queen Who Never Was.
The Princess and the Queen
No two chronicles agree on how many men and women died that night beneath the Dragonpit’s great dome: two hundred or two thousand, be that as it may. For every man who perished, ten suffered burns and yet survived. Trapped within the pit, hemmed in by walls and dome and bound by heavy chains, the dragons could not fly away, or use their wings to evade attacks and swoop down on their foes. Instead they fought with horns and claws and teeth, turning this way and that like bulls in a Flea Bottom rat pit … but these bulls could breathe fire. The Dragonpit was transformed into a fiery hell where burning men staggered screaming through the smoke, the flesh sloughing from their blackened bones, but for every man who died, ten more appeared, shouting that the dragons must need die. One by one, they did.
The Princess and the Queen
Moondancer was a young dragon, pale green, with horns and crest and wingbones of pearl. Aside from her great wings, she was no larger than a warhorse, and weighed less. She was very quick, however, and Sunfyre, though much larger, still struggled with a malformed wing, and had taken fresh wounds from Grey Ghost.
Which has strong connotations for:
A Feast for Crows - The Drowned Man
"I know as much of war as you do, Crow's Eye," Asha said. "Aegon Targaryen conquered Westeros with dragons."
"And so shall we," Euron Greyjoy promised. "That horn you heard I found amongst the smoking ruins that were Valyria, where no man has dared to walk but me. You heard its call, and felt its power. It is a dragon horn, bound with bands of red gold and Valyrian steel graven with enchantments. The dragonlords of old sounded such horns, before the Doom devoured them. With this horn, ironmen, I can bind dragons to my will."
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Paging voice. I could really use a "wall of text" right now. SlyWren - cmon', Teach, gonna make me work now? -chuckling-
LOL! I got ur back...
A Storm of Swords - Daenerys V
When Brown Ben left, she lay back on her cushions. "If you were grown," she told Drogon, scratching him between the horns, "I'd fly you over the walls and melt that harpy down to slag." But it would be years before her dragons were large enough to ride. And when they are, who shall ride them? The dragon has three heads, but I have only one. She thought of Daario. If ever there was a man who could rape a woman with his eyes . . .
A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys I
Viserion sensed her disquiet. The white dragon lay coiled around a pear tree, his head resting on his tail. When Dany passed his eyes came open, two pools of molten gold. His horns were gold as well, and the scales that ran down his back from head to tail. "You're lazy," she told him, scratching under his jaw. His scales were hot to the touch, like armor left too long in the sun. Dragons are fire made flesh. She had read that in one of the books Ser Jorah had given her as a wedding gift. "You should be hunting with your brothers. Have you and Drogon been fighting again?" Her dragons were growing wild of late. Rhaegal had snapped at Irri, and Viserion had set Reznak's tokar ablaze the last time the seneschal had called. I have left them too much to themselves, but where am I to find the time for them?
A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys IX
Above them all the dragon turned, dark against the sun. His scales were black, his eyes and horns and spinal plates blood red. Ever the largest of her three, in the wild Drogon had grown larger still. His wings stretched twenty feet from tip to tip, black as jet. He flapped them once as he swept back above the sands, and the sound was like a clap of thunder. The boar raised his head, snorting … and flame engulfed him, black fire shot with red. Dany felt the wash of heat thirty feet away. The beast's dying scream sounded almost human. Drogon landed on the carcass and sank his claws into the smoking flesh. As he began to feed, he made no distinction between Barsena and the boar.
The Princess and the Queen
Nine days after Lord Staunton dispatched his plea for help, the sound of leathern wings was heard across the sea, and the dragon Meleys appeared above Rook’s Rest. The Red Queen, she was called, for the scarlet scales that covered her. The membranes of her wings were pink, her crest, horns, and claws bright as copper. And on her back, in steel and copper armor that flashed in the sun, rode Rhaenys Targaryen, the Queen Who Never Was.
The Princess and the Queen
No two chronicles agree on how many men and women died that night beneath the Dragonpit’s great dome: two hundred or two thousand, be that as it may. For every man who perished, ten suffered burns and yet survived. Trapped within the pit, hemmed in by walls and dome and bound by heavy chains, the dragons could not fly away, or use their wings to evade attacks and swoop down on their foes. Instead they fought with horns and claws and teeth, turning this way and that like bulls in a Flea Bottom rat pit … but these bulls could breathe fire. The Dragonpit was transformed into a fiery hell where burning men staggered screaming through the smoke, the flesh sloughing from their blackened bones, but for every man who died, ten more appeared, shouting that the dragons must need die. One by one, they did.
The Princess and the Queen
Moondancer was a young dragon, pale green, with horns and crest and wingbones of pearl. Aside from her great wings, she was no larger than a warhorse, and weighed less. She was very quick, however, and Sunfyre, though much larger, still struggled with a malformed wing, and had taken fresh wounds from Grey Ghost.
Which has strong connotations for:
A Feast for Crows - The Drowned Man
"I know as much of war as you do, Crow's Eye," Asha said. "Aegon Targaryen conquered Westeros with dragons."
"And so shall we," Euron Greyjoy promised. "That horn you heard I found amongst the smoking ruins that were Valyria, where no man has dared to walk but me. You heard its call, and felt its power. It is a dragon horn, bound with bands of red gold and Valyrian steel graven with enchantments. The dragonlords of old sounded such horns, before the Doom devoured them. With this horn, ironmen, I can bind dragons to my will."
And thank you, coming from you, it means alot... 
: 
Word. 
Not sure if you'd consider the attached "canon"... 