SerLadySage and I were having an OT discussion today about them. The main thing that stuck out to me regarding the two, are that antlers are "seasonal", horns are "permanent". So, how can we apply this towards ASOIAF? I'll throw the first pitch...The seasons are "wacky" on Westeros, wonder how this might affect all things antler?
The seasonality of antlers seems easy to apply to the Mother Wolf in Bran I AGOT, Crowned Stags, and Green Men. wolfmaid7 could definitely speak to the summer king/winter king better than I, but that seems rather indicative of the growing and breaking of antlers... and, sacrificial rulers.
Antlers are rather silent, unless they are Patchface's. And Patchface might be the key. Antlers are for fools? Fool kings? Tommen is the third "Crowned Stag" to sit the IT in the series, and he seems rather doomed and seasonal. (I'm banking on another, far elder King to ride down upon the Winds now that winter is come, and would love to see him atop the Iron Throne when Dany comes to town. It won't happen, but I would like to see it.) The Stag Kings seem rather foolish, aside from Stannis... who is rather foolish in his sense of justice imo.
The killing of the mother direwolf in the first chapter, a death by antler, marked the dwindling of the longest summer in memory, and the rise of a formidable winter - the likes of which has not been seen in 8000 years.
On horns, we have the horned lord, horns to bind dragons and horns break walls. And then, we have the blowing of horns, which calls to mind Wind. Antlers are seasonal, Horns are wind. In my mind, Horns are Winds that speak but a single word: ahooooooooooooooooooo!
Far more capable of Song, whereas Antlers are only capable at Games.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
The seasonality of antlers seems easy to apply to the Mother Wolf in Bran I AGOT, Crowned Stags, and Green Men. wolfmaid7 could definitely speak to the summer king/winter king better than I, but that seems rather indicative of the growing and breaking of antlers... and, sacrificial rulers.
Antlers are rather silent, unless they are Patchface's. And Patchface might be the key. Antlers are for fools? Fool kings? Tommen is the third "Crowned Stag" to sit the IT in the series, and he seems rather doomed and seasonal. (I'm banking on another, far elder King to ride down upon the Winds now that winter is come, and would love to see him atop the Iron Throne when Dany comes to town. It won't happen, but I would like to see it.) The Stag Kings seem rather foolish, aside from Stannis... who is rather foolish in his sense of justice imo.
The killing of the mother direwolf in the first chapter, a death by antler, marked the dwindling of the longest summer in memory, and the rise of a formidable winter - the likes of which has not been seen in 8000 years.
On horns, we have the horned lord, horns to bind dragons and horns break walls. And then, we have the blowing of horns, which calls to mind Wind. Antlers are seasonal, Horns are wind. In my mind, Horns are Winds that speak but a single word: ahooooooooooooooooooo!
Far more capable of Song, whereas Antlers are only capable at Games.
Voice my friend i'll come back to this.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
SerLadySage and I were having an OT discussion today about them. The main thing that stuck out to me regarding the two, are that antlers are "seasonal", horns are "permanent". So, how can we apply this towards ASOIAF? I'll throw the first pitch...The seasons are "wacky" on Westeros, wonder how this might affect all things antler?
A few things come to mind:
I think antlers and horns represent the two aspects of the horned lord as hinted at in the World Book's account of Garth Greenhand - i.e. the fertility god aspect of teaching men to farm, causing maidens to flower, having numerous children etc. (the antlers), versus the "considerably darker deity who demanded blood sacrifice of his worshippers to ensure a bountiful harvest (the horns).
The antlers symbolize the light and are associated with the sun - think of the description of Renly's antlered helm that is golden and 'runs with flame' and so on. Can't find the quotes right now but you get my meaning. There's also the link to the colour green of course, green men who either had antlers or wore them, Renly's green armour. And also seasonal as you say. Animals with antlers include the stag and elk or moose.
The horns on the other hand are associated with night, with the moon, crescent moon - this would include the bull, ram and the goat.
The sounds associated with antlers - Patchface's clanging bells - I suppose we could call this a form of instrumental music. Patchface's bells symbolize a means of control - spiritual control imo, that which directs the undead.
Horns tend to howl like wolves.. aahoooooo .. Bran imitates this as well.
Horns are also drinking vessels, for ale/beer mainly. Not quite sure what to make of that. Beer vrs. wine. Urine vrs. blood? There seems to be some significance attached to pissing, lol.
Some other points of interest: Cersei's children are all false stags. Joff has antlers nailed to the heads of the 'antler-men' and has them catapulted off the walls during the Battle of the Blackwater. He rejects the antler by this act and does not embrace it fully on his coat of arms either, coupling it with the Lannister lion.
Antlers are rather silent, unless they are Patchface's. And Patchface might be the key. Antlers are for fools? Fool kings? Tommen is the third "Crowned Stag" to sit the IT in the series, and he seems rather doomed and seasonal. (I'm banking on another, far elder King to ride down upon the Winds now that winter is come, and would love to see him atop the Iron Throne when Dany comes to town. It won't happen, but I would like to see it.) The Stag Kings seem rather foolish, aside from Stannis... who is rather foolish in his sense of justice imo.
The antlers certainly appear to be related to good humor. Both Robert and Renly are jovial men who like to enjoy life. So yes, antlers are related to fools, whose main purpose is to make people laugh. This probably all harks back to the Shrouded Lord, a grim figure without humor who gives a boon to those who can make him laugh. Unfortunately, Patchface did not improve Stannis humor one bit. The Shrouded Lord is at home in the murky waters of the Sorrows, and interestingly, here we find great horned turtles, one of which is the 'Old Man of the River'. Perhaps Garin the Great was an antler figure (the Rhoynar sun and golden cage he was hung up in suggest this). If so, his utter defeat by the Valyrians turned him into a dark humorless figure who lost the ability to laugh, expressing his anger via his curse - greyscale. He becomes the darker aspect of the horned lord, his antlers turn into horns. Greyscale can be equated with the undead - all the symptoms of greyscale mirror the undead, minus the controlling aspect. Making the Shrouded Lord laugh can be figuratively seen as giving him his antlers back (thinking of Patchface the fool here). The boon would be a return to life and control of the living dead (greyscale > undead state). But it's really the SL who needs the antlers to accomplish this feat and the antlers here are no longer the real thing, but represent tree branches, which are reminiscent of antlers. That takes us back to green men and greenseers. This is not necessarily positive of course. Additional related symbolism can be found in descriptions of trees whose branches reach out as if to capture the moon /i.e. horn (like the one at the Nightfort).
Generally, those who don't get their antlers back remain horned, the dark aspect. They remain vengeful and cruel, with no humor beyond malicious joy, like the WW, who are horned in the show, Ramsay (the Ram) or Aerys (also the Ram/Aries) or the alternatively, the Lamb Men who have nothing to laugh about being victims of the Dothraki.
Sounds convoluted doesn't it... but that's the gist of it.
EDIT - sorry, quoting went wrong somehow - the second quote was voice , not wolfmaid7 .
Horns are also drinking vessels, for ale/beer mainly. Not quite sure what to make of that. Beer vrs. wine. Urine vrs. blood? There seems to be some significance attached to pissing, lol.
LOL at the pissing!
I of course agree. And Tormund...Tormund is not a horn that wakes the sleepers, but he is nonetheless a Horn-blower and Mead-king... might explain why he's a Tall-talker.
He's very horny in any case. How else can one be a Husband to Bears?
These titles apply to Tyrion as well. Someone remind me, was there a warhorn used at the Battle of the Blackwater?
[ My contract requires that I also mention his Thunderfist/Speaker to Gods/Breaker of Ice titles, and even his "Father of Hosts" title recall the Others, Weirwoods, the Fall of the Wall, and Night's King leading hosts of the slain.... but that's all a little off topic. ]
We should also talk about Dany's dichotomy in terms of drinking vessels:
. . . drink from the cup of ice . . . drink from the cup of fire . . .
Simple algebraic substitution yields a Horn of Ice and a Horn of Fire. And those Horns are most definitely capable of Song.
The antlers certainly appear to be related to good humor. Both Robert and Renly are jovial men who like to enjoy life. So yes, antlers are related to fools, whose main purpose is to make people laugh. This probably all harks back to the Shrouded Lord, a grim figure without humor who gives a boon to those who can make him laugh. Unfortunately, Patchface did not improve Stannis humor one bit. The Shrouded Lord is at home in the murky waters of the Sorrows, and interestingly, here we find great horned turtles, one of which is the 'Old Man of the River'. Perhaps Garin the Great was an antler figure (the Rhoynar sun and golden cage he was hung up in suggest this). If so, his utter defeat by the Valyrians turned him into a dark humorless figure who lost the ability to laugh, expressing his anger via his curse - greyscale. He becomes the darker aspect of the horned lord, his antlers turn into horns. Greyscale can be equated with the undead - all the symptoms of greyscale mirror the undead, minus the controlling aspect. Making the Shrouded Lord laugh can be figuratively seen as giving him his antlers back (thinking of Patchface the fool here). The boon would be a return to life and control of the living dead (greyscale > undead state). But it's really the SL who needs the antlers to accomplish this feat and the antlers here are no longer the real thing, but represent tree branches, which are reminiscent of antlers. That takes us back to green men and greenseers. This is not necessarily positive of course. Additional related symbolism can be found in descriptions of trees whose branches reach out as if to capture the moon /i.e. horn (like the one at the Nightfort).
I can only agree. I'm reminded of our convo in Weirwood Ghost. I think I'm still waiting on a reply from you to some thoughts on these topics... I'll check when I have a bit more time and link it for you.
Generally, those who don't get their antlers back remain horned, the dark aspect. They remain vengeful and cruel, with no humor beyond malicious joy, like the WW, who are horned in the show, Ramsay (the Ram) or Aerys (also the Ram/Aries) or the alternatively, the Lamb Men who have nothing to laugh about being victims of the Dothraki.
Only one WW is horned in the show, but yes... they are all seemingly cold and implacable.
Anthlers very aptly represent the Horned God whose major animal association is the Stags.The anthlers are directly related to his fertility.The shape of the Anthlers is important as well espcially when it comes to the cresent moon you can actually trace the main phases across the anthlers from left to right.The full moon directly between the Anthlers is a union and representation of both the god and goddess.
This is a popular song we sing at Mabon to give better meaning
In the series though we do see a lot to indicate the theme of the Horned god and his archetypes and as i said especially when it comes to the Baratheons.
Evollet i would characterize what you claim as foolish as being jolly which is another archtype of the Horned god as Santa claus.
In the vernacular horn and anthlers are interchangeable but we do see some moments where horn takes on another significance.Overall horn and anthlers signify strength, power,supremacy and virility.Tourmond comes to mind as well as Robert a bunch of mead drinkers that like to f**k.
But it also gathers,to war to meet all of which i would put under power and strength. One of my favorite scenes in the book is when Jon called for the sounding for battle when Mance was about to attack and the sound of the horns after each other just rumbled through the Wall.I would have loved for that to have been depicted somehow.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
[ My contract requires that I also mention his Thunderfist/Speaker to Gods/Breaker of Ice titles, and even his "Father of Hosts" title recall the Others, Weirwoods, the Fall of the Wall, and Night's King leading hosts of the slain.... but that's all a little off topic. ]
And an additional fun fact comes to mind. Wildfire is modelled on Greek Fire and like wildfire it was a treacherous substance and nigh impossible to quench. Guess what puts it out? Yes, urine . Vinegar was also effective. Now I'm tempted to go on about fAegon, the Pisswater Prince and Jon Con... but I think the connection is clear.
So horns are associated with beer/urine and related to fire-phobia - neither the Weirwoods, the Others or wights not are particularly fond of fire.
Simple algebraic substitution yields a Horn of Ice and a Horn of Fire. And those Horns are most definitely capable of Song.
One more observation I didn't expand on above:
The Shrouded Lord is at home in the murky waters of the Sorrows, and interestingly, here we find great horned turtles, one of which is the 'Old Man of the River'.
The horned turtles are a representation of the Shrouded 'horned' Lord. The Shrouded Lord in all his greyness and Old Man of the River then also recall the Grey King of Ironborn fame as well as characters such as Selmy who is also called 'Grandfather' or the rather ancient Walder Frey - the Late Lord Frey. I really like this connection because it lends support to my idea regarding mystery knights, whom I see as potential greenseers, or at least persons with that ability if they had the training. I really must write that up. That links to the idea that making the Shrouded Lord happy involves giving him back his antlers, or rather a substitute - the trees - and to the laughing tree itself. So in respect of the laughing tree shield (and the Tower of Joy), my feeling is that the outcome of 'X'+L, i.e. Jon, must be a horned lord who symbolically gets back his real antlers. Not horns, not tree branches but real stag antlers, like the original Garth Greenhand in his fertility aspect and someone who can heal the land.
Horns are also drinking vessels, for ale/beer mainly. Not quite sure what to make of that. Beer vrs. wine. Urine vrs. blood? There seems to be some significance attached to pissing, lol.
The man had been taken outside a small holdfast in the hills. Robb thought he was a wildling, his sword sworn to Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall. It made Bran's skin prickle to think of it. He remembered the hearth tales Old Nan told them. The wildlings were cruel men, she said, slavers and slayers and thieves. They consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children.
Post by whitewolfstark on Jun 9, 2016 14:36:27 GMT
I think a big perspective that is missing here is an actual Late Medieval/Early Renaissance perspective where antlers and horns were used interchangeably and could stand in for a mysterious male virility and power, but also at the same time stand in for being a sign of being a cuckold--which was absolutely hilarious in Shakespeare's day and age. In fact there's an entire play revolved around the joke, The Merry Wives of Windsor, where the ancient male virility aspect is invoked in the discussion of the ancient figure of Herne the Hunter (think of him as a combo of the Night's King and Headless Horseman, a local figure of note for Windsor obviously descended from the mixture of the Celtic god of Cerrennes and the Germanic god of Odin), but also the aspect of a "horned" husband in Master Page and a "horned" lover in Sir Falstaff, who literally wears antlers at the end of the play when he dresses up as Herne the Hunter as part of an elaborate prank that the Wives pull on Falstaff when he tries to woo both women at the same time.
Herne the Hunter (One)
Herne the Hunter (Two)
Falstaff as Herne
The belief of the times goes as such: that a man who saw his woman flirting or making sexual advances on another man would "grow antlers/horns" (again used interchangeably). The terminology later expanded to even if the wife had a lover in secret, that the man would be "horned".
To the Late Medieval/Early Renaissance mindset, cuckolding a husband was absolute comic gold and where a lot of their comedies, satires, and farces dwelt upon. In fact one could even take the viewpoint that Othello is a play about a black man stuck in a cynical Italian farce and due to cultural differences on the value of love, sex, and marriage than the Italians, turns it into Tragedy.
La Mandragola by Machiavelli (the same one who wrote The Prince) - The Merry Wives of Windsor by Shakespeare -
The association between having "horns" and "desire brought upon by jealousy" actually still remains with us, though we're largely unaware of it. After all, we do still say someone is "horny" to this day, which is the modern day remnant of this meaning.
And an additional fun fact comes to mind. Wildfire is modelled on Greek Fire and like wildfire it was a treacherous substance and nigh impossible to quench. Guess what puts it out? Yes, urine . Vinegar was also effective. Now I'm tempted to go on about fAegon, the Pisswater Prince and Jon Con... but I think the connection is clear.
So horns are associated with beer/urine and related to fire-phobia - neither the Weirwoods, the Others or wights not are particularly fond of fire.
Precisely. Hence the Weirwood Ghost antigen(fire men)/antiody(ice men) theory. Like crabs in Sister Stew, you have once again found an incredibly unique alternative line of inquiry that leads to one of my favorite pet theories. LOL
But yes. Am still following and sincerely agreeing with you.
I think we can even take this a step further.... remember this line?
"No, I just want to stand on top of the Wall and piss off the edge of the world."
We've seen what the edges of the realms of men look like. Cold, tall, gaunt, implacable. Eyes like blue stars. Swords of ice that glow with ghost-light.
I'd not want to "piss off" that edge. And Tyrion of course realizes his folly eventually, even if he does not act upon it. (I would argue this is caused by a dormant instinct in First Men, which alerts them to the presence of the Others, and that Tyrion ignores it...but that's another story.) Tyrion's realization:
As he stood there and looked at all that darkness with no fires burning anywhere, with the wind blowing and the cold like a spear in his guts, Tyrion Lannister felt as though he could almost believe the talk of the Others, the enemy in the night. His jokes of grumkins and snarks no longer seemed quite so droll.
No fire. Wind blowing. Cold like a spear (an edge). That's weaponized cold my friends, and a cold forging of weaponry. But again I digress.
Tyrion senses these things, yet his learned-mind chooses to ignore his senses. The Starks are not burdened by such folly, wolf-blood forces them to acknowledge and act upon their senses.
As Tyrion and Jon face this cold edge of the world, the two men have reactions to it as different as can possibly be: Tyrion wants to return to southron comforts, Jon wants to face that edge and find his uncle.
The first seems logical, and preferable, no?
But look at where it led Tyrion. Patricide. Exile. Servitude.
By choosing the harder road, the road less traveled, Jon might bring the very absolution the world so desperately needs. Or not. LOL
The Shrouded Lord is at home in the murky waters of the Sorrows, and interestingly, here we find great horned turtles, one of which is the 'Old Man of the River'.
The horned turtles are a representation of the Shrouded 'horned' Lord. The Shrouded Lord in all his greyness and Old Man of the River then also recall the Grey King of Ironborn fame as well as characters such as Selmy who is also called 'Grandfather' or the rather ancient Walder Frey - the Late Lord Frey. I really like this connection because it lends support to my idea regarding mystery knights, whom I see as potential greenseers, or at least persons with that ability if they had the training. I really must write that up. That links to the idea that making the Shrouded Lord happy involves giving him back his antlers, or rather a substitute - the trees - and to the laughing tree itself. So in respect of the laughing tree shield (and the Tower of Joy), my feeling is that the outcome of 'X'+L, i.e. Jon, must be a horned lord who symbolically gets back his real antlers. Not horns, not tree branches but real stag antlers, like the original Garth Greenhand in his fertility aspect and someone who can heal the land.
I'm less certain of the horned turtle meanings. I think it points in a slightly different direction, but haven't fully fleshed out the idea yet. I still of course look forward to seeing your write-up. My take on the horned turtle is rather obvious, and likely wrong anyway. LOL
And an ever so small quibble I must make...the tower of joy is not capitalized the one time it is mentioned in the books. This has always stood out to me. Ned is saying quite literally what Rhaegar 'named' the place, yet it is kept in the improper form. Always makes me wonder if it wasn't a more nonchalant naming than is generally assumed. If I had named, say, an old 1969 Chevy Nova a car of joy, no one would think the vehicle was actually called the "Car of Joy."
In terms of an antlered father of Jon, I can definitely see it. I quite like wolfmaid7's "R"+L=J theory, and brought up the scenario myself in heresy many moons ago. But, I don't think Robert is plausible as the story develops. Still, pretty much any Westerosi father could be seen as an antlered man for your purposes, as Westeros is a continent populated by descendants of Garth, etc. They are also men of the continent where the Men are Green (Greenmen) and have antlers. Some men even ride elk. These are not the sort of mounts we see in Essos.
The belief of the times goes as such: that a man who saw his woman flirting or sexual making advances on another man would "grow antlers/horns" (again used interchangeably). The terminology later expanded to even if the wife had a lover in secret, that the man
To the Late Medieval/Early Renaissance mindset, cuckolding a husband was absolute comic gold and where a lot of their comedies, satires, and farces dwelt upon. In fact one could even take the viewpoint that Othello is a play about a black man stuck in a cynical Italian farce and due to cultural differences on the value of love, sex, and marriage than the Italians, turns it into Tragedy.
La Mandragola by Machiavelli (the same one who wrote The Prince) - The Merry Wives of Windsor by Shakespeare -
The association between having "horns" and "desire brought upon by jealousy" actually still remains with us, though we're largely unaware of it. After all, we do still say someone is "horny" to this day, which is the modern day remnant of this meaning.
Yup. And great post WWS. I'm struck by how much this sounds like Robert Baratheon. Like, every part of it.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
"No, I just want to stand on top of the Wall and piss off the edge of the world."
We've seen what the edges of the realms of men look like. Cold, tall, gaunt, implacable. Eyes like blue stars. Swords of ice that glow with ghost-light.
I'd not want to "piss off" that edge. And Tyrion of course realizes his folly eventually, even if he does not act upon it. (I would argue this is caused by a dormant instinct in First Men, which alerts them to the presence of the Others, and that Tyrion ignores it...but that's another story.) Tyrion's realization:
As he stood there and looked at all that darkness with no fires burning anywhere, with the wind blowing and the cold like a spear in his guts, Tyrion Lannister felt as though he could almost believe the talk of the Others, the enemy in the night. His jokes of grumkins and snarks no longer seemed quite so droll.
I'm less certain of the horned turtle meanings. I think it points in a slightly different direction, but haven't fully fleshed out the idea yet.
The turtle fits in perfectly with the idea of longevity conveyed by the list above (Grandfather, Grey King etc.)and more: It's an emblem of long life and immortality in most cultures and especially revered by the Chinese. As one of the four guardians of the four compass directions, it guards and stands for the north, winter, the colour black and the element of water. The Chinese call it the 'Black Warrior'. The main focus is on its shield, considered as amour. We can connect that to the white shadows in the books - Kingsguard, Ghost who really are shields. And to the Others, whom I think of as shields as well (dragons are swords / Others are shields).
The other three guardians are the tiger, the phoenix or red bird and the dragon. The dragon and turtle were especially important as symbols of power and inaccessibility to the Chinese Imperial Army. It was thought that neither could vanquish the other, that they fought but both remained alive. This does not seem to apply to the story though. TWoiaF talks of the Turtle Wars which the Valyrians fought and won against the Rhoynar "more often than not." Recall also the Rhoynar legend of the end of the Long Night - crab king and old man of the river who put aside their bickering to bring back the light of day.
Also significant methinks, is that the children of turtles are considered bastard children because they simply lay their eggs and leave without even looking back, let alone caring for them.
GM also compares the turtle's roar to the sound of a warhorn:
It was another turtle, a horned turtle of enormous size, its dark green shell mottled with brown and overgrown with water moss and crusty black river molluscs. It raised its head and bellowed, a deep-throated thrumming roar louder than any warhorn that Tyrion had ever heard.
And this is what Tyrion thinks after the appearance of the turtle:
“A turtle,” said Tyrion. “A turtle bigger than this boat.” “It was him,” cried Yandry. “The Old Man of the River.” And why not? Tyrion grinned. Gods and wonders always appear, to attend the birth of kings.
I think a big perspective that is missing here is an actual Late Medieval/Early Renaissance perspective where antlers and horns were used interchangeably and could stand in for a mysterious male virility and power, but also at the same time stand in for being a sign of being a cuckold--which was absolutely hilarious in Shakespeare's day and age. In fact there's an entire play revolved around the joke, The Merry Wives of Windsor, where the ancient male virility aspect is invoked in the discussion of the ancient figure of Herne the Hunter (think of him as a combo of the Night's King and Headless Horseman, a local figure of note for Windsor obviously descended from the mixture of the Celtic god of Cerrennes and the Germanic god of Odin), but also the aspect of a "horned" husband in Master Page and a "horned" lover in Sir Falstaff, who literally wears antlers at the end of the play when he dresses up as Herne the Hunter as part of an elaborate prank that the Wives pull on Falstaff when he tries to woo both women at the same time.
Many thanks for this angle. The cuckolding of a husband is a nice parallel to Cersei and Robert. Considering the theme of homosexuality, the horned lover aspect is equally interesting. I've been wondering how that fits into the picture.
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Post by whitewolfstark on Jun 9, 2016 20:30:13 GMT
If you're interested in seeing how the joke of the cuckolded husband would play out, and you have 2 and a half hours to kill, here's a production of The Merry Wives of Windsor: