Dunno. There will always be "good". There will always be "bad", and "miracles"/ magic will persevere in the eyes of the beholder. It's a question of balance. Perhaps Davos and Brienne are the ones who should be the sole survivors and their basically well-balanced genes can proliferate...-rotflmao-
Well, Davos should DEFINITELY survive. I'd make him king, but he'd hate it. So, let him just go home end be happy with his wife.
As for "always good and bad"--I'm probably going WAY to far out on the "over-reading symbolism" limb, but we've got horns ON dragons and horns USED on dragons. And we have dragons birthed via blood magic.
So, seems like the horns that are tied to dragons one way or another are about . . . unpleasant human intent to dominate.
I tend to be prejudiced against the dragons lately--really think they don't belong. Especially if they are woken by blood sacrifice.
But I fully admit that's a prejudice, not a clear reality.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I could swear LmL has an SSM on this somewhere that dragon isn't used in Valyrian steel. . .
I'm pretty sure BC has it too, because I remember that line of speculation being squashed in heresy a long time ago. Lol
Haha, yeah, it's not mine, but I have mentioned it. I consider it suspect though, as it was from fan correspondence, not a question at a con in public. Dragon bone used to make V steel makes a lot sense, logically and symbolically, so I kind of haven't rule sit out, despite the SSM. I am not basing any theories on that idea, however. I prefer the idea of moon meteorite stone in all V Steel swords myself.
Gah! So much to agree with here, evolett. I've ruminated on the horns and antlers thing quite a bit. Thanks to sagenadia8611 for pointing to the difference between antlers and horns. As wolfmaid7 said, they are often used interchangeably, but I think Martin is playing on the difference in the way you suggest, Evolett.
I think antlers and horns represent the two aspects of the horned lord as hinted at in the World Book's account of Garth Greenhand - i.e. the fertility god aspect of teaching men to farm, causing maidens to flower, having numerous children etc. (the antlers), versus the "considerably darker deity who demanded blood sacrifice of his worshippers to ensure a bountiful harvest (the horns).
The antlers symbolize the light and are associated with the sun - think of the description of Renly's antlered helm that is golden and 'runs with flame' and so on. Can't find the quotes right now but you get my meaning. There's also the link to the colour green of course, green men who either had antlers or wore them, Renly's green armour. And also seasonal as you say. Animals with antlers include the stag and elk or moose.
The horns on the other hand are associated with night, with the moon, crescent moon - this would include the bull, ram and the goat.
The idea with the horned god representing the male spirit, male virility, etc, can indeed go two ways, according to what I have read. If it goes bad, it turns violent, like unchecked male aggressiveness. I have long suggested that Martin is showing us a horned lord binary, one of life and one of death, with the life aspected horned lord being the Garth Green / fertility / green man ideas (which would be ANTLERS) and the darker horned gods - bulls, goats, boars (like the black devil that split Robert) and rams... and dragons, of course. Dragons most of all. I now conceive of Azor Ahai as a "naughty greenseer horned lord" who transformed through fire magic, and he would be the epitome of the darker horned lord aspect. I have been trying to tell @woldmaid7 about this idea for a while now. George is also drawing on baphomet and lucifer related ideas for his darker horned god figure. And as you say, this creature is associated with night. His horns are moon sickles, absolutely. The horn is also tied to Lightbringer itself, the "long claw." As you yourself discovered, the dragonbinder horn is most likely a part of steering the comet into the moon, and it is a hell horn whose sound is a shivering hot scream (think NIssa's scream which cracked the moon) and splits the air like a sword thrust.
Cerrunos himself is a solar figure, with the triple goddess being the personification of the moon. As wolfmaid7 says, the full moon between the antlers of Cerrunos represents union. So, antlers are solar associated - and indeed, the Baratheons are Kings who wear gold, and Garth represents fertility and blooming plants - high summer, in other words, just as Robert is a summer king. But the horned gods, the darker ones anyway, they represent the night, and sometimes the idea of a night sun or dark sun (like the Lion of Night). Thus they fit well with all the sacrifice related ideas based around moons and sickles and the hellhorn.
When Robert (green antlered man) clashed with Rhaegar (dark horned lord), it's basically George's twisted version of the Oak and Holly King, with this darker horned figure in place of the Holly King. They slay each other, take each other's place. In the Dawn Age in Westeros, I believe we also had horned lords (Green Men, stag men) and dragon lords (the predecessors of Valyria from the Great Empire of the Dawn who built Battle Isle), so this may have all happened before too.
I think a big perspective that is missing here is an actual Late Medieval/Early Renaissance perspective where antlers and horns were used interchangeably and could stand in for a mysterious male virility and power, but also at the same time stand in for being a sign of being a cuckold--which was absolutely hilarious in Shakespeare's day and age. In fact there's an entire play revolved around the joke, The Merry Wives of Windsor, where the ancient male virility aspect is invoked in the discussion of the ancient figure of Herne the Hunter (think of him as a combo of the Night's King and Headless Horseman, a local figure of note for Windsor obviously descended from the mixture of the Celtic god of Cerrennes and the Germanic god of Odin), but also the aspect of a "horned" husband in Master Page and a "horned" lover in Sir Falstaff, who literally wears antlers at the end of the play when he dresses up as Herne the Hunter as part of an elaborate prank that the Wives pull on Falstaff when he tries to woo both women at the same time.
Thanks for this great Herne pic, and you're right to compare him to Night's King. And to Coldhands, I'd say, who in my opinion is an undead Green Man / horned lord / greenseer type. He's lost his antlers, but rides the Great Elk to clue us in. I definitely think of Night's King as a rebel horned lord in the same way as I do Azor Ahai - in fact they could be the same person, though that's true of nearly all of these old heroes, as the stories have bled together.
And to your point about the horned joke, George does it with Robert. He's literally a horned god who wears antlers, but cerise cuckolds him and refers to it as "giving him horns." So he's horned in every sense of the word. There's also a rumor that Aegon the Conqueor was horned by Rhaenys, but who knows if that is true.
To all of this I would add the Grey King, who wore a crown of Nagga's teeth and sat in a throne of Nagga's Fangs. Thing is, we've seen Nagga's bones, and they appear to be weirwood. And in TWOIAF, it's said that Galon Whitestaff, civilizer of the Ironborn and the first priest of the Ironborn, carried a staff that was either made of weirwood or Nagga's bones... all of which indicates that Nagga's bones = weirwood. Therefore, we should imagine the Grey King sitting in a weirwood throne with a weirwood crown. That's easily how you could describe Bloodraven, with his crown being the weirwood roots wrapping around his head. Or perhaps Grey King slaughter weirwoods, as his legend suggests, and say in a dead weirwood throne (like the Eyrie has) and wore a weirwood crown that looks more like the Driftwood crowns - and no doubt, the Grey King's weirwood crown was the inspiration for the driftwood ones that came later. You could really notice in the show how much the driftwood crown looks like Night King's horns - and indeed, antlers and tree branches are symbolic corollaries, as evolett suggests. This compares strongly to Durran Godsgrief, the first Storm King, who is associated with having antlers, stealing from the gods, and causing very bad weather. The Grey King stole fire from the Storm God and from the Sea Dragon, only to have the his fire drowned upon his death. The Sea Dragon is associated with floods, just as Durran is.
Clearly, these myths are all talking about something similar - horned lords causing mayhem. To that I will add the legend of the greenseers calling down the Hammer of the Waters. In my mind, the real deal here is Azor Ahai the rebel horned lord greenseer who called down the Hammer and stole fire from the gods by knocking the moon out of the sky with his horn and whatever other magic he had. The falling meteors were the Hammer of the Waters and the Sea Dragon and the Storm God's thunderbolt, and they caused the island drowning associated with the sea dragon and the storms remembered in Durran Godsgrief's tale. That was the cause of the Long Night - the death of life and summer, when the dark horned gods ruled. If there was a Garth the Green for true, he might have died at the onset of the Long Night somehow.
Azor Ahai, the Bloodstone Emperor, the horned baphomet, the Black Goat, Lion of Night, black dragon, brining stag - that's him. Look at Stannis - he's burning stag who has a flaming sword... but one who parallels Night's King, giving his seed and soul away to Mel to birth shadows. That's the fellow we are talking about here. Stannis shows us an antlered Baratheon turning to a demonic fire wielder, just as fiery "resurrected Renly" leads a horde of demons in steel while his antlers run with flame. Interestingly, Stannis the Lightbringer-wielding burning stag man goes to the Wall and plants his banner there. He wants to take the Nightfort for his seat. Is it possible the Night's King is simply the last step in the life of Azor Ahai? Dorian Dayne, the Sword of the Evening, goes to the Wall, and I certainly think of AA as the sword of the evening. Anyway, I've gone on long enough.Great thread.
Gah! So much to agree with here, evolett. I've ruminated on the horns and antlers thing quite a bit. Thanks to sagenadia8611 for pointing to the difference between antlers and horns. As wolfmaid7 said, they are often used interchangeably, but I think Martin is playing on the difference in the way you suggest, Evolett.
I think antlers and horns represent the two aspects of the horned lord as hinted at in the World Book's account of Garth Greenhand - i.e. the fertility god aspect of teaching men to farm, causing maidens to flower, having numerous children etc. (the antlers), versus the "considerably darker deity who demanded blood sacrifice of his worshippers to ensure a bountiful harvest (the horns).
The antlers symbolize the light and are associated with the sun - think of the description of Renly's antlered helm that is golden and 'runs with flame' and so on. Can't find the quotes right now but you get my meaning. There's also the link to the colour green of course, green men who either had antlers or wore them, Renly's green armour. And also seasonal as you say. Animals with antlers include the stag and elk or moose.
The horns on the other hand are associated with night, with the moon, crescent moon - this would include the bull, ram and the goat.
The idea with the horned god representing the male spirit, male virility, etc, can indeed go two ways, according to what I have read. If it goes bad, it turns violent, like unchecked male aggressiveness. I have long suggested that Martin is showing us a horned lord binary, one of life and one of death, with the life aspected horned lord being the Garth Green / fertility / green man ideas (which would be ANTLERS) and the darker horned gods - bulls, goats, boars (like the black devil that split Robert) and rams... and dragons, of course. Dragons most of all. I now conceive of Azor Ahai as a "naughty greenseer horned lord" who transformed through fire magic, and he would be the epitome of the darker horned lord aspect. I have been trying to tell @woldmaid7 about this idea for a while now. George is also drawing on baphomet and lucifer related ideas for his darker horned god figure. And as you say, this creature is associated with night. His horns are moon sickles, absolutely. The horn is also tied to Lightbringer itself, the "long claw." As you yourself discovered, the dragonbinder horn is most likely a part of steering the comet into the moon, and it is a hell horn whose sound is a shivering hot scream (think NIssa's scream which cracked the moon) and splits the air like a sword thrust.
Cerrunos himself is a solar figure, with the triple goddess being the personification of the moon. As wolfmaid7 says, the full moon between the antlers of Cerrunos represents union. So, antlers are solar associated - and indeed, the Baratheons are Kings who wear gold, and Garth represents fertility and blooming plants - high summer, in other words, just as Robert is a summer king. But the horned gods, the darker ones anyway, they represent the night, and sometimes the idea of a night sun or dark sun (like the Lion of Night). Thus they fit well with all the sacrifice related ideas based around moons and sickles and the hellhorn.
When Robert (green antlered man) clashed with Rhaegar (dark horned lord), it's basically George's twisted version of the Oak and Holly King, with this darker horned figure in place of the Holly King. They slay each other, take each other's place. In the Dawn Age in Westeros, I believe we also had horned lords (Green Men, stag men) and dragon lords (the predecessors of Valyria from the Great Empire of the Dawn who built Battle Isle), so this may have all happened before too.
I think a big perspective that is missing here is an actual Late Medieval/Early Renaissance perspective where antlers and horns were used interchangeably and could stand in for a mysterious male virility and power, but also at the same time stand in for being a sign of being a cuckold--which was absolutely hilarious in Shakespeare's day and age. In fact there's an entire play revolved around the joke, The Merry Wives of Windsor, where the ancient male virility aspect is invoked in the discussion of the ancient figure of Herne the Hunter (think of him as a combo of the Night's King and Headless Horseman, a local figure of note for Windsor obviously descended from the mixture of the Celtic god of Cerrennes and the Germanic god of Odin), but also the aspect of a "horned" husband in Master Page and a "horned" lover in Sir Falstaff, who literally wears antlers at the end of the play when he dresses up as Herne the Hunter as part of an elaborate prank that the Wives pull on Falstaff when he tries to woo both women at the same time.
Thanks for this great Herne pic, and you're right to compare him to Night's King. And to Coldhands, I'd say, who in my opinion is an undead Green Man / horned lord / greenseer type. He's lost his antlers, but rides the Great Elk to clue us in. I definitely think of Night's King as a rebel horned lord in the same way as I do Azor Ahai - in fact they could be the same person, though that's true of nearly all of these old heroes, as the stories have bled together.
And to your point about the horned joke, George does it with Robert. He's literally a horned god who wears antlers, but cerise cuckolds him and refers to it as "giving him horns." So he's horned in every sense of the word. There's also a rumor that Aegon the Conqueor was horned by Rhaenys, but who knows if that is true.
To all of this I would add the Grey King, who wore a crown of Nagga's teeth and sat in a throne of Nagga's Fangs. Thing is, we've seen Nagga's bones, and they appear to be weirwood. And in TWOIAF, it's said that Galon Whitestaff, civilizer of the Ironborn and the first priest of the Ironborn, carried a staff that was either made of weirwood or Nagga's bones... all of which indicates that Nagga's bones = weirwood. Therefore, we should imagine the Grey King sitting in a weirwood throne with a weirwood crown. That's easily how you could describe Bloodraven, with his crown being the weirwood roots wrapping around his head. Or perhaps Grey King slaughter weirwoods, as his legend suggests, and say in a dead weirwood throne (like the Eyrie has) and wore a weirwood crown that looks more like the Driftwood crowns - and no doubt, the Grey King's weirwood crown was the inspiration for the driftwood ones that came later. You could really notice in the show how much the driftwood crown looks like Night King's horns - and indeed, antlers and tree branches are symbolic corollaries, as evolett suggests. This compares strongly to Durran Godsgrief, the first Storm King, who is associated with having antlers, stealing from the gods, and causing very bad weather. The Grey King stole fire from the Storm God and from the Sea Dragon, only to have the his fire drowned upon his death. The Sea Dragon is associated with floods, just as Durran is.
Clearly, these myths are all talking about something similar - horned lords causing mayhem. To that I will add the legend of the greenseers calling down the Hammer of the Waters. In my mind, the real deal here is Azor Ahai the rebel horned lord greenseer who called down the Hammer and stole fire from the gods by knocking the moon out of the sky with his horn and whatever other magic he had. The falling meteors were the Hammer of the Waters and the Sea Dragon and the Storm God's thunderbolt, and they caused the island drowning associated with the sea dragon and the storms remembered in Durran Godsgrief's tale. That was the cause of the Long Night - the death of life and summer, when the dark horned gods ruled. If there was a Garth the Green for true, he might have died at the onset of the Long Night somehow.
Azor Ahai, the Bloodstone Emperor, the horned baphomet, the Black Goat, Lion of Night, black dragon, brining stag - that's him. Look at Stannis - he's burning stag who has a flaming sword... but one who parallels Night's King, giving his seed and soul away to Mel to birth shadows. That's the fellow we are talking about here. Stannis shows us an antlered Baratheon turning to a demonic fire wielder, just as fiery "resurrected Renly" leads a horde of demons in steel while his antlers run with flame. Interestingly, Stannis the Lightbringer-wielding burning stag man goes to the Wall and plants his banner there. He wants to take the Nightfort for his seat. Is it possible the Night's King is simply the last step in the life of Azor Ahai? Dorian Dayne, the Sword of the Evening, goes to the Wall, and I certainly think of AA as the sword of the evening. Anyway, I've gone on long enough.Great thread.
Thanks LmL and please know, my "identity crisis" is over and my phone is letting me be sagenadia861 once again! Your feedback's got me percolating. More to follow...
Haha, yeah, it's not mine, but I have mentioned it. I consider it suspect though, as it was from fan correspondence, not a question at a con in public. Dragon bone used to make V steel makes a lot sense, logically and symbolically, so I kind of haven't rule sit out, despite the SSM. I am not basing any theories on that idea, however. I prefer the idea of moon meteorite stone in all V Steel swords myself.
The permanence, strength and durability of dragon bone/horn/tooth makes sense to me as an ingredient. While I'm still not sold on moon meteorites, that dragons are associated with lunar eclipse is enough to bridge the gap. Ancients drank from the cup of fire, and built an empire amid fourteen flames.
Other Ancients drank from the cup of ice, and terraformed frozen dead lands, teeming with un-life and anti-life. They also have strong, durable blades.
Both burn. But one drinks light, and the other emits it.
I'm rambling so I'll reassociate this with the topic at hand. LOL
Obsidian too emits light, but dragonbone drinks it. Dragons drink light (drank the light of the sun). This inherent characteristic is found even in their bones, and true horns, unlike antlers, have cores of living bone. And when Euron's servant blew a Valyrian dragon horn, it drank his life, leaving him burned from the inside-out, like Orell's eagle.
It may sound counterintuitive, but this is one of the reasons why I find it unlikely Valyrian Steel can be a lightbringer. It is ever associated with the opposite effect. Darkness and shadow -- bad things when facing a Long Night. Some say such things are full of terrors, and Targaryen history bears this out.
So it makes more sense to me if VS is composed of steel+dragonbone/horn/tooth etc than obsidian. But both are born of flame, so who knows.
One last distinction... as we've discussed upthread, antlers are seasonal, horns are not. Dragons are usually long lived, and can apparently incubate within their ("stone") eggs indefinitely... or... even the most ancient of eggs can become magically fertilized even after centuries have passed.
And even in egg-form, they drank radiation. We've seen obsidian drink the cold, but we have not seen it drink heat. We've seen dragons drink light/heat/radiation in each state of their existence: as eggs, when hatching, when alive, and even when nothing more than a skeleton. So when a sword "drinks light" I can't help but think it bears some bits of dragon egg/bone/horn/etc. We're never told what happened to the eggshells after Dany's divine child-labor. Mayhaps a Valryian blacksmith could use them.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Haha, yeah, it's not mine, but I have mentioned it. I consider it suspect though, as it was from fan correspondence, not a question at a con in public. Dragon bone used to make V steel makes a lot sense, logically and symbolically, so I kind of haven't rule sit out, despite the SSM. I am not basing any theories on that idea, however. I prefer the idea of moon meteorite stone in all V Steel swords myself.
The permanence, strength and durability of dragon bone/horn/tooth makes sense to me as an ingredient. While I'm still not sold on moon meteorites, that dragons are associated with lunar eclipse is enough to bridge the gap. Ancients drank from the cup of fire, and built an empire amid fourteen flames.
Other Ancients drank from the cup of ice, and terraformed frozen dead lands, teeming with un-life and anti-life. They also have strong, durable blades.
Both burn. But one drinks light, and the other emits it.
I'm rambling so I'll reassociate this with the topic at hand. LOL
Obsidian too emits light, but dragonbone drinks it. Dragons drink light (drank the light of the sun). This inherent characteristic is found even in their bones, and true horns, unlike antlers, have cores of living bone. And when Euron's servant blew a Valyrian dragon horn, it drank his life, leaving him burned from the inside-out, like Orell's eagle.
It may sound counterintuitive, but this is one of the reasons why I find it unlikely Valyrian Steel can be a lightbringer. It is ever associated with the opposite effect. Darkness and shadow -- bad things when facing a Long Night. Some say such things are full of terrors, and Targaryen history bears this out.
So it makes more sense to me if VS is composed of steel+dragonbone/horn/tooth etc than obsidian. But both are born of flame, so who knows.
One last distinction... as we've discussed upthread, antlers are seasonal, horns are not. Dragons are usually long lived, and can apparently incubate within their ("stone") eggs indefinitely... or... even the most ancient of eggs can become magically fertilized even after centuries have passed.
And even in egg-form, they drank radiation. We've seen obsidian drink the cold, but we have not seen it drink heat. We've seen dragons drink light/heat/radiation in each state of their existence: as eggs, when hatching, when alive, and even when nothing more than a skeleton. So when a sword "drinks light" I can't help but think it bears some bits of dragon egg/bone/horn/etc. We're never told what happened to the eggshells after Dany's divine child-labor. Mayhaps a Valryian blacksmith could use them.
"horns have cores of living bone..." In addition to "The North Remembers", don't bones "remember" as well? -hmmmm-
"horns have cores of living bone..." In addition to "The North Remembers", don't bones "remember" as well? -hmmmm-
Exactly:
A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I Mance Rayder chuckled. "I had my doubts as well, Snow, but why not let her try? It was that, or let Stannis roast me." "The bones help," said Melisandre. "The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man's shadow can be drawn forth from suchand draped about another like a cloak. The wearer's essence does not change, only his seeming."
And compare that with:
A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IV Thrice at least Lord Tywin had offered to buy Valyrian longswords from impoverished lesser houses, but his advances had always been firmly rebuffed. The little lordlings would gladly part with their daughters should a Lannister come asking, but they cherished their old family swords. Tyrion wondered where the metal for this one had come from. A few master armorers could rework old Valyrian steel, but the secrets of its making had been lost when the Doom came to old Valyria. "The colors are strange," he commented as he turned the blade in the sunlight. Most Valyrian steel was a grey so dark it looked almost black, as was true here as well. But blended into the folds was a red as deep as the grey. The two colors lapped over one another without ever touching, each ripple distinct, like waves of night and blood upon some steely shore. "How did you get this patterning? I've never seen anything like it." "Nor I, my lord," said the armorer. "I confess, these colors were not what I intended, and I do not know that I could duplicate them. Your lord father had asked for the crimson of your House, and it was that color I set out to infuse into the metal. But Valyrian steel is stubborn. These old swords remember, it is said, and they do not change easily. I worked half a hundred spells and brightened the red time and time again, but always the color would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it. And some folds would not take the red at all, as you can see. If my lords of Lannister are displeased, I will of course try again, as many times as you should require, but—"
The wearer's essence does not change, and some folds would not take the red at all.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
"horns have cores of living bone..." In addition to "The North Remembers", don't bones "remember" as well? -hmmmm-
Exactly:
A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I Mance Rayder chuckled. "I had my doubts as well, Snow, but why not let her try? It was that, or let Stannis roast me." "The bones help," said Melisandre. "The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man's shadow can be drawn forth from suchand draped about another like a cloak. The wearer's essence does not change, only his seeming."
And compare that with:
A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IV Thrice at least Lord Tywin had offered to buy Valyrian longswords from impoverished lesser houses, but his advances had always been firmly rebuffed. The little lordlings would gladly part with their daughters should a Lannister come asking, but they cherished their old family swords. Tyrion wondered where the metal for this one had come from. A few master armorers could rework old Valyrian steel, but the secrets of its making had been lost when the Doom came to old Valyria. "The colors are strange," he commented as he turned the blade in the sunlight. Most Valyrian steel was a grey so dark it looked almost black, as was true here as well. But blended into the folds was a red as deep as the grey. The two colors lapped over one another without ever touching, each ripple distinct, like waves of night and blood upon some steely shore. "How did you get this patterning? I've never seen anything like it." "Nor I, my lord," said the armorer. "I confess, these colors were not what I intended, and I do not know that I could duplicate them. Your lord father had asked for the crimson of your House, and it was that color I set out to infuse into the metal. But Valyrian steel is stubborn. These old swords remember, it is said, and they do not change easily. I worked half a hundred spells and brightened the red time and time again, but always the color would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it. And some folds would not take the red at all, as you can see. If my lords of Lannister are displeased, I will of course try again, as many times as you should require, but—"
The wearer's essence does not change, and some folds would not take the red at all.
Starting to be convinced that Valyrian steel's composition is part dragon...