Post by Dornish Neck Tie on Jul 24, 2016 23:11:39 GMT
This is going to start off as a simple request for information: can anyone find a documented age for the order of the maesters or the Citadel? Because I sure as hell cannot.
Who knows if this is even significant, but it's pretty odd that the maesters seem obsessed with telling us how old every population and historical site are, yet we've never been told how long the maesters themselves have been around from any POV (at least I don't think so).
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
Most of the limited information can be found in the World Book in the The Reach: Oldtown section.
The Maester order was started by Peremore Hightower the brother of King Urrigon Hightower. Their father was married to a daughter of Garth Greenhand so it can be inferred that this was during the Age of Heroes.
The origins of the Citadel are almost as mysterious as those of the Hightower itself. Most credit its founding to the second son of Uthor of the High Tower, Prince Peremore the Twisted. A sickly boy, born with a withered arm and twisted back, Peremore was bedridden for much of his short life but had an insatiable curiosity about the world beyond his window, so he turned to wise men, teachers, priests, healers, and singers, along with a certain number of wizards, alchemists, and sorcerers. It is said the prince had no greater pleasure in life than listening to these scholars argue with one another. When Peremore died, his brother King Urrigon bequeathed a large tract of land beside the Honeywine to "Peremore's pets," that they might establish themselves and continue teaching, learning, and questing after truth. And so they did.
Also interesting to note that at one point Maester worked alongside the Children of the Forest.
We can state with certainty, however, that men have lived at the mouth of the Honeywine since the Dawn Age. The oldest runic records confirm this, as do certain fragmentary accounts that have come down to us from maesters who lived amongst the children of the forest. One such, Maester Jellicoe, suggests that the settlement at the top of Whispering Sound began as a trading post, where ships from Valyria, Old Ghis, and the Summer Isles put in to replenish their provisions, make repairs, and barter with the elder races, and that seems as likely a supposition as any.
So really really old if the World Book can be believed.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
When Peremore died, his brother King Urrigon bequeathed a large tract of land beside the Honeywine to "Peremore's pets,"
I haven't read the WB and don't know the context at all, but naming them pets (an term used by Yezzan for some of his slaves), their chains, and Tarly's attitude towards their servitude just makes me think of them as slaves.
Most of the limited information can be found in the World Book in the The Reach: Oldtown section.
The Maester order was started by Peremore Hightower the brother of King Urrigon Hightower. Their father was married to a daughter of Garth Greenhand so it can be inferred that this was during the Age of Heroes.
The origins of the Citadel are almost as mysterious as those of the Hightower itself. Most credit its founding to the second son of Uthor of the High Tower, Prince Peremore the Twisted. A sickly boy, born with a withered arm and twisted back, Peremore was bedridden for much of his short life but had an insatiable curiosity about the world beyond his window, so he turned to wise men, teachers, priests, healers, and singers, along with a certain number of wizards, alchemists, and sorcerers. It is said the prince had no greater pleasure in life than listening to these scholars argue with one another. When Peremore died, his brother King Urrigon bequeathed a large tract of land beside the Honeywine to "Peremore's pets," that they might establish themselves and continue teaching, learning, and questing after truth. And so they did.
Also interesting to note that at one point Maester worked alongside the Children of the Forest.
We can state with certainty, however, that men have lived at the mouth of the Honeywine since the Dawn Age. The oldest runic records confirm this, as do certain fragmentary accounts that have come down to us from maesters who lived amongst the children of the forest. One such, Maester Jellicoe, suggests that the settlement at the top of Whispering Sound began as a trading post, where ships from Valyria, Old Ghis, and the Summer Isles put in to replenish their provisions, make repairs, and barter with the elder races, and that seems as likely a supposition as any.
So really really old if the World Book can be believed.
Thanks! What I find most interesting is the direct link drawn between the maesters and the Children. One idea that has been nagging me for a while is that the maesters essentially perform the functions that would have been the responsibilities of human greenseers if we ever saw them in widespread use; they are wise councilors, as well as stewards and practitioners of complex, highly exclusive knowledge that only a rare few are capable of mastering, i.e. "wise men," as they are for Children of the Forest.
This, I believe, points to a great deal of CotF influence in the establishment of the Citadel. Perhaps this came about as a result of the original Pact; the humans agreed to establish a supposedly apolitical order of wise men apart from the weirnet and lines of noble inheritance, so that in future conflicts, both men and Children would both have the tools for allowing cooler heads to prevail.
Not to mention, GRRM's 1993 letter to his editor included the cooperation of maester and greenseer as essential to the resolution of this saga. Maybe this will be the rekindling of the Pact, whose specific terms remain rather mysterious. (I know we've heard how men and CotF split up the territory, but that version seems rather oversimplified and incomplete for a treaty to end such a massive conflict.)
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
When Peremore died, his brother King Urrigon bequeathed a large tract of land beside the Honeywine to "Peremore's pets,"
I haven't read the WB and don't know the context at all, but naming them pets (an term used by Yezzan for some of his slaves), their chains, and Tarly's attitude towards their servitude just makes me think of them as slaves.
Indeed. I believe that eventually we will be provided with some sort of historical connection between slavery and the various orders of service we've seen which require the permanent forfeiture of all familial inheritance.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
When Peremore died, his brother King Urrigon bequeathed a large tract of land beside the Honeywine to "Peremore's pets,"
I haven't read the WB and don't know the context at all, but naming them pets (an term used by Yezzan for some of his slaves), their chains, and Tarly's attitude towards their servitude just makes me think of them as slaves.
An interesting parallel to be sure. Probably just a sign of the warrior culture of Westeros where intelligence is not valued as martial strength. Maester Luwin even refers to them as the "Knights of the Mind."
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Thanks! What I find most interesting is the direct link drawn between the maesters and the Children. One idea that has been nagging me for a while is that the maesters essentially perform the functions that would have been the responsibilities of human greenseers if we ever saw them in widespread use; they are wise councilors, as well as stewards and practitioners of complex, highly exclusive knowledge that only a rare few are capable of mastering, i.e. "wise men," as they are for Children of the Forest.
Reading this, it occurred to me that maesters and citadel are exactly like the weirwood net, they also have a "face" every where. They imitate the flow of information with ravens which is ironic given their affinity to weirwoods.
We also have Varys's little birds (which I still believe are named after BR's Ravens), they operate the same way. What makes this analogy even more interesting is that Varys makes the little birds mute just like the ravens these days.
We also have Varys's little birds (which I still believe are named after BR's Ravens), they operate the same way. What makes this analogy even more interesting is that Varys makes the little birds mute just like the ravens these days.
You know it's funny you should mention this. We all seem to agree that Varys's "little birds" are mute, but where does that information come from? I can only remember the following passage.
“What I can do, I will,” the one with the torch said softly. “I must have gold, and another fifty birds.” She let them get a long way ahead, then went creeping after them. Quiet as a shadow. “So many?” The voices were fainter as the light dwindled ahead of her. “The ones you need are hard to find … so young, to know their letters … perhaps older … not die so easy …” “No. The younger are safer … treat them gently …” “… if they kept their tongues …” “… the risk …”
Is there anything said about this anywhere else? Because it dawns on me that this passage might be interpreted another way. Certainly it's meant to give the impression that he's having their tongues removed, but is that really the case? There's an awful lot of blanks there that weren't overheard. Illyrio could very well be arguing that older children or adults should be acceptable "if they kept their tongues," using this phrasing similarly to holding their tongues or holding their silence, basically just keeping a secret. Varys might just feel that the younger children are more loyal and less likely to spill secrets. It also seems that he would have plenty of other reasons for wanting them to know their letters. Spying on correspondence, for example. What would the point be of removing a child's tongue if all they need do to communicate is write it out?
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
We also have Varys's little birds (which I still believe are named after BR's Ravens), they operate the same way. What makes this analogy even more interesting is that Varys makes the little birds mute just like the ravens these days.
You know it's funny you should mention this. We all seem to agree that Varys's "little birds" are mute, but where does that information come from? I can only remember the following passage.
“What I can do, I will,” the one with the torch said softly. “I must have gold, and another fifty birds.” She let them get a long way ahead, then went creeping after them. Quiet as a shadow. “So many?” The voices were fainter as the light dwindled ahead of her. “The ones you need are hard to find … so young, to know their letters … perhaps older … not die so easy …” “No. The younger are safer … treat them gently …” “… if they kept their tongues …” “… the risk …”
Is there anything said about this anywhere else? Because it dawns on me that this passage might be interpreted another way. Certainly it's meant to give the impression that he's having their tongues removed, but is that really the case? There's an awful lot of blanks there that weren't overheard. Illyrio could very well be arguing that older children or adults should be acceptable "if they kept their tongues," using this phrasing similarly to holding their tongues or holding their silence, basically just keeping a secret. Varys might just feel that the younger children are more loyal and less likely to spill secrets. It also seems that he would have plenty of other reasons for wanting them to know their letters. Spying on correspondence, for example. What would the point be of removing a child's tongue if all they need do to communicate is write it out?
You are right, there isn't. But in the epilogue of the aDwD, the two kids that Kevan encounters (which I assume are two of little birds) and the other kids with knives are completely silent. They do not talk or make any noise. He never notices them missing a tongue, but it just reinforces their condition:
The messenger was a boy of eight or nine, so bundled up in fur he seemed a bear cub. Trant had kept him waiting out on the drawbridge rather than admit him into Maegor's. "Go find a fire, lad," Ser Kevan told him, pressing a penny into his hand. "I know the way to the rookery well enough."
Notice how the boy never says anything to Kevan.
The girl nodded, solemn and silent, and pointed to the steps.
Also the girl observes no ceremony, she just points. She is talking to the hand of the king and still nothing.
He glimpsed movement, heard the soft scuffling sound of slippered feet on stone. A child emerged from a pool of darkness, a pale boy in a ragged robe, no more than nine or ten. Another rose up behind the Grand Maester’s chair. The girl who had opened the door for him was there as well. They were all around him, half a dozen of them, white-faced children with dark eyes, boys and girls together. And in their hands, the daggers.
Again, the only sound is of their soft movements, no talking. Of course none of this is definitive, as you pointed out, but reinforces the idea.
And yes, generally what is the point of using the kids? They are the easiest to intimidate and I think if it comes to questioning them, they will crack the easiest. Also, kids probably lack the insight to know what is important and what is not. So, the whole premise makes little sense.
I think I have read some theory that Varys is skinchanging into the little birds to get info which would make it more like BR and also makes more sense especially if they are not in the same city. How are they sending messages? How come no one ever infiltrates Varys's info network?
Thanks! What I find most interesting is the direct link drawn between the maesters and the Children. One idea that has been nagging me for a while is that the maesters essentially perform the functions that would have been the responsibilities of human greenseers if we ever saw them in widespread use; they are wise councilors, as well as stewards and practitioners of complex, highly exclusive knowledge that only a rare few are capable of mastering, i.e. "wise men," as they are for Children of the Forest.
Reading this, it occurred to me that maesters and citadel are exactly like the weirwood net, they also have a "face" every where. They imitate the flow of information with ravens which is ironic given their affinity to weirwoods.
We also have Varys's little birds (which I still believe are named after BR's Ravens), they operate the same way. What makes this analogy even more interesting is that Varys makes the little birds mute just like the ravens these days.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm thinking re: the weirwood net. Perhaps the most explicit evidence we have of major Singer influence in the Citadel is their reliance on ravens for communication.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
We also have Varys's little birds (which I still believe are named after BR's Ravens), they operate the same way. What makes this analogy even more interesting is that Varys makes the little birds mute just like the ravens these days.
You know it's funny you should mention this. We all seem to agree that Varys's "little birds" are mute, but where does that information come from? I can only remember the following passage.
“What I can do, I will,” the one with the torch said softly. “I must have gold, and another fifty birds.” She let them get a long way ahead, then went creeping after them. Quiet as a shadow. “So many?” The voices were fainter as the light dwindled ahead of her. “The ones you need are hard to find … so young, to know their letters … perhaps older … not die so easy …” “No. The younger are safer … treat them gently …” “… if they kept their tongues …” “… the risk …”
Is there anything said about this anywhere else? Because it dawns on me that this passage might be interpreted another way. Certainly it's meant to give the impression that he's having their tongues removed, but is that really the case? There's an awful lot of blanks there that weren't overheard. Illyrio could very well be arguing that older children or adults should be acceptable "if they kept their tongues," using this phrasing similarly to holding their tongues or holding their silence, basically just keeping a secret. Varys might just feel that the younger children are more loyal and less likely to spill secrets. It also seems that he would have plenty of other reasons for wanting them to know their letters. Spying on correspondence, for example. What would the point be of removing a child's tongue if all they need do to communicate is write it out?
The fact that Varys requires literacy in his little birds may account for a large number of missing noble children.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
Yes, that's exactly what I'm thinking re: the weirwood net. Perhaps the most explicit evidence we have of major Singer influence in the Citadel is their reliance on ravens for communication.
Yes, yes. I basically just got your point and it was such an interesting one
The fact that Varys requires literacy in his little birds may account for a large number of missing noble children.
Oh cool. Who do you mean?
I'm thinking this one is primarily a matter of necessity. Aside from official names and titles, the ability to read is about a clear a mark of social distinction as you can find in the Seven Kingdoms. As has been demonstrated in-story with the likes of Jon Snow and (f)Aegon, in the chaos of war, the fates of even noble children are often neglected for want of presently capable decision-makers. The only reason anyone cared about Tyrek Lannister's disappearance with all the other chaos in the city is likely because he was just about old enough to wield a sword in combat. I could easily see Varys taking advantage of this neglect to collect forsaken recruits and re-program them, young and impressionable as they are, to act as his servants. We can probably throw some noble bastards who eventually wore out their welcomes into this pot as well. Speculation, I know, but there are a lot of lords and a lot of bastards out there, so it seems inevitable that some will be welcomed at first only to be thrust aside when they become an inconvenience (*cough cough* Jon Snow). Some might argue that the children young enough to be taken in this manner are also too young to read yet. However, we've already seem some demonstrable, though incomplete, re-programming of children as old as 9-12 in Arya Stark with the Faceless Men and Theon Greyjoy as Eddard Stark's ward.
This such method also echoes the Free Folk practice of not naming children until they reach two years of age. We even see this in the Seven Kingdoms, where, IIRC, noble lords generally don't trust the security of their bloodline until they have a trueborn son reach reproductive age himself. Parents are afraid to commit familial status to their infants for fear that they will be "spirited away" while they are still young enough to be re-programmed by new masters.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
Reading this, it occurred to me that maesters and citadel are exactly like the weirwood net, they also have a "face" every where. They imitate the flow of information with ravens which is ironic given their affinity to weirwoods.
there is some text related to ravens, first men and maesters:
game bran 3, "You will never walk again," the three-eyed crow had promised, ..... , in the True Tongue that no human man could speak. The ravens could speak it, though. Their small black eyes were full of secrets, and they would caw at him and peck his skin when they heard the songs.
and from the WIF
Though considered disreputable in this, our present day, a fragment of Septon Barth's Unnatural History has proved a source of controversy in the halls of the Citadel. Claiming to have consulted with texts said to be preserved at Castle Black, Septon Barth put forth that the children of the forest could speak with ravens and could make them repeat their words.
so this is proven true by the text in Bran 3 above, when he is in the children's cave.
and if Barth was right once, he may be right again:
According to Barth, this higher mystery was taught to the First Men by the children so that ravens could spread messages at a great distance. It was passed, in degraded form, down to the maesters today, who no longer know how to speak to the birds. It is true that our order understands the speech of ravens...but this means the basic purposes of their cawing and rasping, their signs of fear and anger, and the means by which they display their readiness to mate or their lack of health.
this one is a bit puzzling though:
We can state with certainty, however, that men have lived at the mouth of the Honeywine since the Dawn Age. The oldest runic records confirm this, as do certain fragmentary accounts that have come down to us from maesters who lived amongst the children of the forest. One such, Maester Jellicoe, suggests that the settlement at the top of Whispering Sound began as a trading post, where ships from Valyria, Old Ghis, and the Summer Isles put in to replenish their provisions, make repairs, and barter with the elder races, and that seems as likely a supposition as any.
on the one hand we have 'since the dawn age' and on the other hand we have a trading post trading with Valyria and Old Ghis which is much later.
What an interesting collection of 'pets' did Peremore keep:
wise men, teachers, priests, healers, and singers, along with a certain number of wizards, alchemists, and sorcerers
.
In particular, the last 3.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
You know it's funny you should mention this. We all seem to agree that Varys's "little birds" are mute, but where does that information come from? I can only remember the following passage. Is there anything said about this anywhere else? Because it dawns on me that this passage might be interpreted another way. Certainly it's meant to give the impression that he's having their tongues removed, but is that really the case? There's an awful lot of blanks there that weren't overheard. Illyrio could very well be arguing that older children or adults should be acceptable "if they kept their tongues," using this phrasing similarly to holding their tongues or holding their silence, basically just keeping a secret. Varys might just feel that the younger children are more loyal and less likely to spill secrets. It also seems that he would have plenty of other reasons for wanting them to know their letters. Spying on correspondence, for example. What would the point be of removing a child's tongue if all they need do to communicate is write it out?
The fact that Varys requires literacy in his little birds may account for a large number of missing noble children.
What missing noble children?
I always figured Illusion sent them from Eason. Much easier due to slavery.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!