I may be ninja'd by now, but just to follow Wraith 's first response, I believe the maesters learned ravenry from the children of the forest. It seems like we are told that in the actual novels, via Bran/Leaf/BR. The ravens once spoke the messages themselves, rather than carry letters.
Here is a fun idea. What if the Maesters or even some of them still know the language of ravens? Then they could send false messages with the paper and the ravens could tell the truth.
This is so wonderfully devious that I'm already quite convinced it's straight from the mind of the man himself.
I'm gonna need another highlighter color to cover the raven interactions on this reread...
Last Edit: Jul 28, 2016 4:05:49 GMT by Dornish Neck Tie: Edited to add
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
Here is a fun idea. What if the Maesters or even some of them still know the language of ravens? Then they could send false messages with the paper and the ravens could tell the truth.
This is so wonderfully devious that I'm already quite convinced it's straight from the mind of the man himself.
I'm gonna need another highlighter color to cover the raven interactions on this reread...
If you are interested in the maesters and ravens then you should read this:
Ah, yes. I've read this before a couple times but it has been a while since I referred back to it. Perhaps it's time to give it another go...
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
Oh boy, looks like I actually haven't read this one of his yet! BranVras seems to be asserting that the Citadel we know today wasn't established until some time after the arrival of the Andals. Unfortunately, it looks like it might be impossible to find a place for the Citadel's founding in the historical timeline with the published material we have so far. Seems as if GRRM has been deliberately ambiguous about this so far; saving it for a big reveal in TWoW?
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
Oh boy, looks like I actually haven't read this one of his yet! BranVras seems to be asserting that the Citadel we know today wasn't established until some time after the arrival of the Andals. Unfortunately, it looks like it might be impossible to find a place for the Citadel's founding in the historical timeline with the published material we have so far. Seems as if GRRM has been deliberately ambiguous about this so far; saving it for a big reveal in TWoW?
Its actually part 1 of 3 about the Maesters.
Frankly anything further back that say the arrival of Nymeria sans 1000 years ago I find inconclusive because there is really no way to tell, even with the world book. Maybe Sam will find the truth in his adventure series: Samwell Tarly and the Shadowbinder's Stone.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Here is a fun idea. What if the Maesters or even some of them still know the language of ravens? Then they could send false messages with the paper and the ravens could tell the truth.
A very fun idea!
Regardless, of the papertrail, there can be no doubt that the cotf and Bloodraven know all that the ravens have ever heard. What trees have witnessed alone is a wealth of knowledge, but there is a lot of correspondence and dialogue between maester and bird, or maester and lord in the presence of birds that must also be considered indexed.
BR says that "every one" of the ravens have an inhabitant, and I think he's talking about all the ravens. I think this is why Bran was able to see beyond the Narrow Sea in his coma dream. His third eye was being opened, and Ravens are the bearers of that eye. Unlike weirwoods and their greenseers, ravens are not bound to the continent.
In this way, I think we might consider weirwoods one network, and ravens another. While the first offers a connection to the second, only a precious few can access it. The third eye is the ability to use omnicient, raven perspective. And the heart trees look up at it, knowingly.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Here is a fun idea. What if the Maesters or even some of them still know the language of ravens? Then they could send false messages with the paper and the ravens could tell the truth.
A very fun idea!
Regardless, of the papertrail, there can be no doubt that the cotf and Bloodraven know all that the ravens have ever heard. What trees have witnessed alone is a wealth of knowledge, but there is a lot of correspondence and dialogue between maester and bird, or maester and lord in the presence of birds that must also be considered indexed.
BR says that "every one" of the ravens have an inhabitant, and I think he's talking about all the ravens. I think this is why Bran was able to see beyond the Narrow Sea in his coma dream. His third eye was being opened, and Ravens are the bearers of that eye. Unlike weirwoods and their greenseers, ravens are not bound to the continent.
In this way, I think we might consider weirwoods one network, and ravens another. While the first offers a connection to the second, only a precious few can access it. The third eye is the ability to use omnicient, raven perspective. And the heart trees look up at it, knowingly.
Apparently some Maester's do still understand the speech of ravens. Luwin does..
Maester Luwin sighed. "I can teach you history, healing, herblore. I can teach you the speech of ravens, and how to build a castle, and the way a sailor steers his ship by the stars. I can teach you to measure the days and mark the seasons, and at the Citadel in Oldtown they can teach you a thousand things more. But, Bran, no man can teach you magic."
A few more things that now come to mind is that Marwyn says in the Raven Tower in Oldtown. Perhaps he is keeping track of communication?
Also at the end of a Dance of Dragons we see Varys give his speech to Kevin. Many of us ponder the point of this speech to a dying man. If Varys and Illyrio are Blackfyre supporters they would be an enemy of Bloodraven who controls ravens. What is right outside the window when Varys gives his speech? A white raven. Perhaps Varys was trying to throw Bloodraven of the scent. After all wasn't Varys spies called "little birds"... like a raven.
The white ravens of the Citadel did not carry messages, as their dark cousins did. When they went forth from Oldtown, it was for one purpose only: to herald a change of seasons.
"Winter," said Ser Kevan. The word made a white mist in the air. He turned away from the window.
Then something slammed him in the chest between the ribs, hard as a giant's fist. It drove the breath from him and sent him lurching backwards. The white raven took to the air, its pale wings slapping him about the head. Ser Kevan half-sat and half-fell onto the window seat. What … who … A quarrel was sunk almost to the fletching in his chest. No. No, that was how my brother died. Blood was seeping out around the shaft.
"Pycelle," he muttered, confused. "Help me … I …"
Then he saw. Grand Maester Pycelle was seated at his table, his head pillowed on the great leather-bound tome before him. Sleeping, Kevan thought … until he blinked and saw the deep red gash in the old man's spotted skull and the blood pooled beneath his head, staining the pages of his book. All around his candle were bits of bone and brain, islands in a lake of melted wax.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Regardless, of the papertrail, there can be no doubt that the cotf and Bloodraven know all that the ravens have ever heard. What trees have witnessed alone is a wealth of knowledge, but there is a lot of correspondence and dialogue between maester and bird, or maester and lord in the presence of birds that must also be considered indexed.
BR says that "every one" of the ravens have an inhabitant, and I think he's talking about all the ravens. I think this is why Bran was able to see beyond the Narrow Sea in his coma dream. His third eye was being opened, and Ravens are the bearers of that eye. Unlike weirwoods and their greenseers, ravens are not bound to the continent.
In this way, I think we might consider weirwoods one network, and ravens another. While the first offers a connection to the second, only a precious few can access it. The third eye is the ability to use omnicient, raven perspective. And the heart trees look up at it, knowingly.
Apparently some Maester's do still understand the speech of ravens. Luwin does..
Maester Luwin sighed. "I can teach you history, healing, herblore. I can teach you the speech of ravens, and how to build a castle, and the way a sailor steers his ship by the stars. I can teach you to measure the days and mark the seasons, and at the Citadel in Oldtown they can teach you a thousand things more. But, Bran, no man can teach you magic."
A few more things that now come to mind is that Marwyn says in the Raven Tower in Oldtown. Perhaps he is keeping track of communication?
Also at the end of a Dance of Dragons we see Varys give his speech to Kevin. Many of us ponder the point of this speech to a dying man. If Varys and Illyrio are Blackfyre supporters they would be an enemy of Bloodraven who controls ravens. What is right outside the window when Varys gives his speech? A white raven. Perhaps Varys was trying to throw Bloodraven of the scent. After all wasn't Varys spies called "little birds"... like a raven.
The white ravens of the Citadel did not carry messages, as their dark cousins did. When they went forth from Oldtown, it was for one purpose only: to herald a change of seasons.
"Winter," said Ser Kevan. The word made a white mist in the air. He turned away from the window.
Then something slammed him in the chest between the ribs, hard as a giant's fist. It drove the breath from him and sent him lurching backwards. The white raven took to the air, its pale wings slapping him about the head. Ser Kevan half-sat and half-fell onto the window seat. What … who … A quarrel was sunk almost to the fletching in his chest. No. No, that was how my brother died. Blood was seeping out around the shaft.
"Pycelle," he muttered, confused. "Help me … I …"
Then he saw. Grand Maester Pycelle was seated at his table, his head pillowed on the great leather-bound tome before him. Sleeping, Kevan thought … until he blinked and saw the deep red gash in the old man's spotted skull and the blood pooled beneath his head, staining the pages of his book. All around his candle were bits of bone and brain, islands in a lake of melted wax.
It sounds like the information to learn the speech of ravens is readily available to acolytes at the Citadel. Perhaps the difficulty lies in the free will of ravens, and whether or not they choose to respond to attempts at conversation from maesters. This, I think, could establish a role for the ravens as their own players in the game. They don't seem to be controlled by dead CotF; it seems more as if they retain some memories from the shadows of the dead. Hm, I kinda think this CotF/Raven relationship seems like a pretty neat inversion of the WW/wight relationship...
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
It sounds like the information to learn the speech of ravens is readily available to acolytes at the Citadel.
Here are a few quotes on the topic:
The children of the forest, Old Nan would have called the singers, but those who sing the song of earth was their own name for themselves, in the True Tongue that no human man could speak. The ravens could speak it, though. Their small black eyes were full of secrets, and they would caw at him and peck his skin when they heard the songs.
the tongue the ravens spoke - probably still speak - is the True Tongue, the singers' language
And they did sing. They sang in True Tongue, so Bran could not understand the words, but their voices were as pure as winter air.
somehow, i don't think that a raven speaking in the true Tongue would sound to us 'as pure as winter air'... (I need to work out how to embed a raven's croak)
"All," Lord Brynden said. "It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin."
men knew but have forgotten this tongue.
WIF According to Barth, this higher mystery was taught to the First Men by the children so that ravens could spread messages at a great distance. It was passed, in degraded form, down to the maesters today, who no longer know how to speak to the birds. It is true that our order understands the speech of ravens...but this means the basic purposes of their cawing and rasping, their signs of fear and anger, and the means by which they display their readiness to mate or their lack of health.
I suggest that this is what Maester Luwin is talking about when he says he knows the language of ravens.... same as we can tell a happy bark from a menacing growl.
What these quotes do not say is if these FMs who knew how to talk to ravens were maesters or not.
It implies though that FM greenseers, if there were any, must have known this tongue, and did not pass their knowledge on to their fellow FM.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
It sounds like the information to learn the speech of ravens is readily available to acolytes at the Citadel.
Here are a few quotes on the topic:
The children of the forest, Old Nan would have called the singers, but those who sing the song of earth was their own name for themselves, in the True Tongue that no human man could speak. The ravens could speak it, though. Their small black eyes were full of secrets, and they would caw at him and peck his skin when they heard the songs.
the tongue the ravens spoke - probably still speak - is the True Tongue, the singers' language
And they did sing. They sang in True Tongue, so Bran could not understand the words, but their voices were as pure as winter air.
somehow, i don't think that a raven speaking in the true Tongue would sound to us 'as pure as winter air'... (I need to work out how to embed a raven's croak)
"All," Lord Brynden said. "It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin."
men knew but have forgotten this tongue.
WIF According to Barth, this higher mystery was taught to the First Men by the children so that ravens could spread messages at a great distance. It was passed, in degraded form, down to the maesters today, who no longer know how to speak to the birds. It is true that our order understands the speech of ravens...but this means the basic purposes of their cawing and rasping, their signs of fear and anger, and the means by which they display their readiness to mate or their lack of health.
I suggest that this is what Maester Luwin is talking about when he says he knows the language of ravens.... same as we can tell a happy bark from a menacing growl.
What these quotes do not say is if these FMs who knew how to talk to ravens were maesters or not.
It implies though that FM greenseers, if there were any, must have known this tongue, and did not pass their knowledge on to their fellow FM.
Yes, it seems quite probable that knowledge of raven speech was of some exclusivity, even back in the Age of Heroes. I'd be willing to venture a guess that Houses Stark, Blackwood, Reed, and Hightower are among those who learned raven speech.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
Apparently some Maester's do still understand the speech of ravens. Luwin does..
Indeed! But as others have now mentioned, I'm thinking there's the "speech of ravens" ... then there's the SPEECH OF RAVENS. I'd assume Luwin's version was more akin to modern animal behaviorism and animal training than it was to those who could truly communicate with ravens.
Also at the end of a Dance of Dragons we see Varys give his speech to Kevin. Many of us ponder the point of this speech to a dying man. If Varys and Illyrio are Blackfyre supporters they would be an enemy of Bloodraven who controls ravens. What is right outside the window when Varys gives his speech? A white raven. Perhaps Varys was trying to throw Bloodraven of the scent. After all wasn't Varys spies called "little birds"... like a raven.
Well, ravens are pretty big as far as birds go. But yes, definitely a possiblity.
I must point out, due to my Dawn=Ice obsession, that white ravens are armored in feathers the color of milkglass.
the tongue the ravens spoke - probably still speak - is the True Tongue, the singers' language
And they did sing. They sang in True Tongue, so Bran could not understand the words, but their voices were as pure as winter air.
somehow, i don't think that a raven speaking in the true Tongue would sound to us 'as pure as winter air'... (I need to work out how to embed a raven's croak)
'Winter air' doesn't exactly sound inviting. And the scream of a raven seems a perfect answer for it.
I suggest that this is what Maester Luwin is talking about when he says he knows the language of ravens.... same as we can tell a happy bark from a menacing growl.
What these quotes do not say is if these FMs who knew how to talk to ravens were maesters or not.
It implies though that FM greenseers, if there were any, must have known this tongue, and did not pass their knowledge on to their fellow FM.
Agreed, but rather than suggest that FM greenseers did not pass this tongue onward, I would propose that only FM greenseers could comprehend it. As they dwindled in number and influence, the knowledge of the tongues of ravens would have waned.
Hmm... just imagine... with every house keeping a godswood, and every godswood sustaining a greenseer, there would be no need for maesters.
We can see why the Citadel would want to weed out their weirwood root thrones. Perhaps this is one reason the Brackens poisoned the Blackwood heart tree? As Marwyn points out, the maesters see the old powers as a threat.
In a continent keeping the Old Gods, the grey mice would have to chew at those roots quite fiercely if they ever wanted to control the flow of information and history.
Yes, it seems quite probable that knowledge of raven speech was of some exclusivity, even back in the Age of Heroes. I'd be willing to venture a guess that Houses Stark, Blackwood, Reed, and Hightower are among those who learned raven speech.
I'm thinking all First Men houses would have kept the door open for this connection, via the keeping of the Old Gods. But I agree. I think it would have been rare as well. Bran's third-eye-opening seems to be a very rare experience. And, as Lady Dyanna recently pointed out in her awesome OP, Bran and the Night's King seem to share many similarities. If NK's third eye had been opened, that might explain how he was able to learn the language of the children of the forest (assuming he was Brandon the Builder).
And just as there are cults among modern man, the Citadel may well have sprung from a cult of First Men who did not trust the old powers.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
And just as there are cults among modern man, the Citadel may well have sprung from a cult of First Men who did not trust the old powers.
This is an excellent way of putting it, and I'm thinking the Citadel's origin lies somewhere along these lines as well. Perhaps their mistrust originally came from measured skepticism regarding the compatibility of mankind with the old gods, and over time this has evolved into outright distrust and hostility towards the old powers, leaving us with the internal conflicts we see today
Last Edit: Jul 31, 2016 4:21:07 GMT by Dornish Neck Tie: Formatting
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
This is an excellent way of putting it, and I'm thinking the Citadel's origin lies somewhere along these lines as well. Perhaps their mistrust originally came from measured skepticism regarding the compatibility of mankind with the old gods, and over time this has evolved into outright distrust and hostility towards the old powers, leaving us with the internal conflicts we see today
And in thinking about their antiquity, I can't help but wonder if they were once friendly with the cotf and their greenseers. I mean, how else could they have learned ravenry? Mayhaps they began as Old Gods acolytes of sorts, then as time passed, grew antagonistic.
That they attribute a Valyrian link to the "higher mysteries," and not the black iron Ravenry link, seems to suggest that they did not fully understand the power of ravens.
Mayhaps the Citadel was a place to send ASOIAF's squibs?
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
This is an excellent way of putting it, and I'm thinking the Citadel's origin lies somewhere along these lines as well. Perhaps their mistrust originally came from measured skepticism regarding the compatibility of mankind with the old gods, and over time this has evolved into outright distrust and hostility towards the old powers, leaving us with the internal conflicts we see today
And in thinking about their antiquity, I can't help but wonder if they were once friendly with the cotf and their greenseers. I mean, how else could they have learned ravenry? Mayhaps they began as Old Gods acolytes of sorts, then as time passed, grew antagonistic.
That they attribute a Valyrian link to the "higher mysteries," and not the black iron Ravenry link, seems to suggest that they did not fully understand the power of ravens.
Mayhaps the Citadel was a place to send ASOIAF's squibs?
Indeed. My idea of "measured skepticism" is by no means adversarial. I think it's possible, even probable, that the maesters served as friendly intermediaries between mankind and the old powers, believing (rightly so, IMO) that the democratization of greenseer power was far too dangerous a path to follow within human civilization.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
Yes, it seems quite probable that knowledge of raven speech was of some exclusivity, even back in the Age of Heroes. I'd be willing to venture a guess that Houses Stark, Blackwood, Reed, and Hightower are among those who learned raven speech.
Two of these houses, Stark and Reed, were/are wargs not sure about the other two