The fact that Varys requires literacy in his little birds may account for a large number of missing noble children.
What missing noble children?
I always figured Illusion sent them from Eason. Much easier due to slavery.
The most prominent example would be Arya, even though she isn't missing in the eyes of the reader. Of course, she wasn't taken in by Varys, but her experience with the Faceless Men represents a similar experience. I imagine we just don't know much about any of Varys' individual little birds because of the POVs GRRM has chosen to show us. Jon Snow is another one, particularly since most people have no idea that his "real" identity even exists.
ETA: It's quite likely Illyrio does provide some children from overseas, but it's also likely that there are situations in which only an unquestionably native-looking Westerosi will do. In Volantis, the hub of the western slave trade, the slavers do away with any sort of anonymity by tattooing the faces of slaves.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
Reading this, it occurred to me that maesters and citadel are exactly like the weirwood net, they also have a "face" every where. They imitate the flow of information with ravens which is ironic given their affinity to weirwoods.
there is some text related to ravens, first men and maesters:
game bran 3, "You will never walk again," the three-eyed crow had promised, ..... , in the True Tongue that no human man could speak. The ravens could speak it, though. Their small black eyes were full of secrets, and they would caw at him and peck his skin when they heard the songs.
and from the WIF
Though considered disreputable in this, our present day, a fragment of Septon Barth's Unnatural History has proved a source of controversy in the halls of the Citadel. Claiming to have consulted with texts said to be preserved at Castle Black, Septon Barth put forth that the children of the forest could speak with ravens and could make them repeat their words.
so this is proven true by the text in Bran 3 above, when he is in the children's cave.
and if Barth was right once, he may be right again:
According to Barth, this higher mystery was taught to the First Men by the children so that ravens could spread messages at a great distance. It was passed, in degraded form, down to the maesters today, who no longer know how to speak to the birds. It is true that our order understands the speech of ravens...but this means the basic purposes of their cawing and rasping, their signs of fear and anger, and the means by which they display their readiness to mate or their lack of health.
this one is a bit puzzling though:
We can state with certainty, however, that men have lived at the mouth of the Honeywine since the Dawn Age. The oldest runic records confirm this, as do certain fragmentary accounts that have come down to us from maesters who lived amongst the children of the forest. One such, Maester Jellicoe, suggests that the settlement at the top of Whispering Sound began as a trading post, where ships from Valyria, Old Ghis, and the Summer Isles put in to replenish their provisions, make repairs, and barter with the elder races, and that seems as likely a supposition as any.
on the one hand we have 'since the dawn age' and on the other hand we have a trading post trading with Valyria and Old Ghis which is much later.
What an interesting collection of 'pets' did Peremore keep:
wise men, teachers, priests, healers, and singers, along with a certain number of wizards, alchemists, and sorcerers
.
In particular, the last 3.
I assume Maester Jellicoe is merely referring to ships originating on the Valyrian Peninsula, and not ships of the Valyrian Freehold/Empire? Unless I'm mistaken, the maesters are supposed to predate the Valyrian Empire, no? The Andal invasions were directly triggered by the rise of the Freehold, and the maesters had supposedly already been around for a few thousand years by then. The Citadel's founder of legend, Peremore, was the son of the King Uthor who is rumored to have been a contemporary of Bran the Builder and commissioned him to build the Hightower. Regardless of Bran the Builder's disputed existence, this is at least a good indicator that these two Hightower kings were alive during the early part of the Age of Heroes. This would place them around 6,000-10,000 years ago, at least 1,000 years before the Valyrians became an outward-looking power.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
I always figured Illusion sent them from Eason. Much easier due to slavery.
The most prominent example would be Arya, even though she isn't missing in the eyes of the reader. Of course, she wasn't taken in by Varys, but her experience with the Faceless Men represents a similar experience. I imagine we just don't know much about any of Varys' individual little birds because of the POVs GRRM has chosen to show us. Jon Snow is another one, particularly since most people have no idea that his "real" identity even exists.
ETA: It's quite likely Illyrio does provide some children from overseas, but it's also likely that there are situations in which only an unquestionably native-looking Westerosi will do. In Volantis, the hub of the western slave trade, the slavers do away with any sort of anonymity by tattooing the faces of slaves.
So do you think that Varys is the one who took Tyrek Lannister? He might have but he wouldn't be good as a little bird. I doubt Varys is secretly taking noble kids and using them as spies. Using them for other purposes... maybe.
Probably plenty of homeless or destute kids in KL if he needed Westerosi kids.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
The most prominent example would be Arya, even though she isn't missing in the eyes of the reader. Of course, she wasn't taken in by Varys, but her experience with the Faceless Men represents a similar experience. I imagine we just don't know much about any of Varys' individual little birds because of the POVs GRRM has chosen to show us. Jon Snow is another one, particularly since most people have no idea that his "real" identity even exists.
ETA: It's quite likely Illyrio does provide some children from overseas, but it's also likely that there are situations in which only an unquestionably native-looking Westerosi will do. In Volantis, the hub of the western slave trade, the slavers do away with any sort of anonymity by tattooing the faces of slaves.
So do you think that Varys is the one who took Tyrek Lannister? He might have but he wouldn't be good as a little bird. I doubt Varys is secretly taking noble kids and using them as spies. Using them for other purposes... maybe.
Probably plenty of homeless or destute kids in KL if he needed Westerosi kids.
Nah, if anyone took Tyrek, it was likely Littlefinger, who is a rather ham-fisted imitator of Varys' tactics. I actually don't remember specifically why I believe this about Tyrek, but one of my friends convinced me that Littlefinger was the most likely candidate a while back. I'll look for what he wrote.
Again though, the poor, common-born kids are nearly guaranteed to be illiterate. You will, however, be able to find worthy candidates among the kids who grew up in close contact with noble households. I'm thinking children of knights, highly placed servants, or lesser lords who don't rule their own holdfasts. Not only because of the educational opportunities, but because they'll know how to blend into the settings where important people reside. Jeyne Poole is a good fit here, though she was a bit older and got scooped up by Littlefinger. Hell, the Freys probably wouldn't notice if a few of Walder's several generations of progeny disappeared. Or they'd care so little that they would eventually forget; after all, every family MIA results in promotions in the line of inheritance. This is especially true for little girls, and has been demonstrated in-story in the way most of the powers that be stopped caring about Arya's fate once the Starks were finally subdued by the Lannisters.
I maintain that we haven't seen how any of Varys' little birds specifically came to be because of both POV limitations and the fact that Varys really is the best in the business. However, I realize that this is all likely just needless speculation born of restless anticipation for the next book. This would be more likely to be at play if GRRM was still in the process of "growing" the saga rather than trying to wrap things up.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
So do you think that Varys is the one who took Tyrek Lannister? He might have but he wouldn't be good as a little bird. I doubt Varys is secretly taking noble kids and using them as spies. Using them for other purposes... maybe.
Probably plenty of homeless or destute kids in KL if he needed Westerosi kids.
Nah, if anyone took Tyrek, it was likely Littlefinger, who is a rather ham-fisted imitator of Varys' tactics. I actually don't remember specifically why I believe this about Tyrek, but one of my friends convinced me that Littlefinger was the most likely candidate a while back. I'll look for what he wrote.
Again though, the poor, common-born kids are nearly guaranteed to be illiterate. You will, however, be able to find worthy candidates among the kids who grew up in close contact with noble households. I'm thinking children of knights, highly placed servants, or lesser lords who don't rule their own holdfasts. Not only because of the educational opportunities, but because they'll know how to blend into the settings where important people reside. Jeyne Poole is a good fit here, though she was a bit older and got scooped up by Littlefinger. Hell, the Freys probably wouldn't notice if a few of Walder's several generations of progeny disappeared. Or they'd care so little that they would eventually forget; after all, every family MIA results in promotions in the line of inheritance. This is especially true for little girls, and has been demonstrated in-story in the way most of the powers that be stopped caring about Arya's fate once the Starks were finally subdued by the Lannisters.
I maintain that we haven't seen how any of Varys' little birds specifically came to be because of both POV limitations and the fact that Varys really is the best in the business. However, I realize that this is all likely just needless speculation born of restless anticipation for the next book. This would be more likely to be at play if GRRM was still in the process of "growing" the saga rather than trying to wrap things up.
Well I think Baelish helped caused the Bread Riots. He could have taken him as PJ seems to think, but I have heard others think Varys took him in the confusion. Both are likely possibilities on who took Tyrek.
Varys and Baelish are two excellent players of the game but have much different goals and abilities.
Jeyne Pool in my mind is an isolated example. We presume her father was killed and her Lord (Ned) was killed. She is hundreds of miles from home and everyone she knew was killed or captured. She was only a steward's daughter not sure if that counts as nobility. We don't even know if she was literate but it seems likely enough.
Its interesting speculation but I don't see it being a major point in Winds. Still learning more about how Varys operates is something I would love to see, but he is one of those people that Martin says "knows too much," so we won't get a POV sadly.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Post by Dornish Neck Tie on Jul 27, 2016 3:56:04 GMT
Hm, maybe the takeaway from my suspicions re:Varys' little birds is that we should expect obvious hints of association and motivation from this series because GRRM himself has stated that he prefers to leave the route of his story very open through most of the writing process. As a result, he is required to leave all sorts of avenues open in the event that they eventually become necessary storytelling devices.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
Nah, if anyone took Tyrek, it was likely Littlefinger, who is a rather ham-fisted imitator of Varys' tactics. I actually don't remember specifically why I believe this about Tyrek, but one of my friends convinced me that Littlefinger was the most likely candidate a while back. I'll look for what he wrote.
Again though, the poor, common-born kids are nearly guaranteed to be illiterate. You will, however, be able to find worthy candidates among the kids who grew up in close contact with noble households. I'm thinking children of knights, highly placed servants, or lesser lords who don't rule their own holdfasts. Not only because of the educational opportunities, but because they'll know how to blend into the settings where important people reside. Jeyne Poole is a good fit here, though she was a bit older and got scooped up by Littlefinger. Hell, the Freys probably wouldn't notice if a few of Walder's several generations of progeny disappeared. Or they'd care so little that they would eventually forget; after all, every family MIA results in promotions in the line of inheritance. This is especially true for little girls, and has been demonstrated in-story in the way most of the powers that be stopped caring about Arya's fate once the Starks were finally subdued by the Lannisters.
I maintain that we haven't seen how any of Varys' little birds specifically came to be because of both POV limitations and the fact that Varys really is the best in the business. However, I realize that this is all likely just needless speculation born of restless anticipation for the next book. This would be more likely to be at play if GRRM was still in the process of "growing" the saga rather than trying to wrap things up.
Well I think Baelish helped caused the Bread Riots. He could have taken him as PJ seems to think, but I have heard others think Varys took him in the confusion. Both are likely possibilities on who took Tyrek.
Varys and Baelish are two excellent players of the game but have much different goals and abilities.
Jeyne Pool in my mind is an isolated example. We presume her father was killed and her Lord (Ned) was killed. She is hundreds of miles from home and everyone she knew was killed or captured. She was only a steward's daughter not sure if that counts as nobility. We don't even know if she was literate but it seems likely enough.
Its interesting speculation but I don't see it being a major point in Winds. Still learning more about how Varys operates is something I would love to see, but he is one of those people that Martin says "knows too much," so we won't get a POV sadly.
I should have phrased that better so as not to insult Littlefinger, one of my favorite characters. He's definitely a formidable player, along side the likes of Varys and Tywin. Varys' machinations just have a certain elegance and subtlety that the other players lack. Littlefinger and Tywin still have to resort to a lot of killing and buying people off, though it's more a difference in circumstance rather than skill.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
I assume Maester Jellicoe is merely referring to ships originating on the Valyrian Peninsula, and not ships of the Valyrian Freehold/Empire? Unless I'm mistaken, the maesters are supposed to predate the Valyrian Empire, no?
If you accept that the Arm of Dorne was broken at the time of the LN, then no ships could have come from Valyria before hand as the Narrow sea was not open southward. But ships could have come from Asshai or neighbouring places, with 'wizards, alchemists, and sorcerers'.
Also, at that time, FM only wrote runes on stones, which apparently maesters have a hard time deciphering. No Rosetta stone...
So I think maesters writing in books are much more recent. They wrote from the legacy of the singers of the time.
Certainly the Citadel would have been a centre of learning, but did they have a writing system based on a pure alphabet?
Feast Sam 1 . . we say that you're the nine hundred and ninety-eighth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but the oldest list I've found shows six hundred seventy-four commanders, which suggests that it was written during . . ."
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
I assume Maester Jellicoe is merely referring to ships originating on the Valyrian Peninsula, and not ships of the Valyrian Freehold/Empire? Unless I'm mistaken, the maesters are supposed to predate the Valyrian Empire, no?
If you accept that the Arm of Dorne was broken at the time of the LN, then no ships could have come from Valyria before hand as the Narrow sea was not open southward. But ships could have come from Asshai or neighbouring places, with 'wizards, alchemists, and sorcerers'.
Also, at that time, FM only wrote runes on stones, which apparently maesters have a hard time deciphering. No Rosetta stone...
So I think maesters writing in books are much more recent. They wrote from the legacy of the singers of the time.
Certainly the Citadel would have been a centre of learning, but did they have a writing system based on a pure alphabet?
Feast Sam 1 . . we say that you're the nine hundred and ninety-eighth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but the oldest list I've found shows six hundred seventy-four commanders, which suggests that it was written during . . ."
Interesting. This begs the question of just how the maesters operated before the Andal writing system came to Westeros. The current iteration of the Citadel seems to be built around the knowledge base in their library. What did they use before? Were they human greenseers or something similar, sworn to serve the heart trees and their local houses?
If they always used writing and simply shifted to another language over time, there should absolutely be translations floating around somewhere, since it seems the institution itself has remained a constant. Are the maesters hiding the information necessary for translating the runes of the First Men for some reason?
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
This is going to start off as a simple request for information: can anyone find a documented age for the order of the maesters or the Citadel? Because I sure as hell cannot.
Who knows if this is even significant, but it's pretty odd that the maesters seem obsessed with telling us how old every population and historical site are, yet we've never been told how long the maesters themselves have been around from any POV (at least I don't think so).
A fascinating subject.
I may be ninja'd by now, but just to follow Wraith's first response, I believe the maesters learned ravenry from the children of the forest. It seems like we are told that in the actual novels, via Bran/Leaf/BR. The ravens once spoke the messages themselves, rather than carry letters.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Post by Dornish Neck Tie on Jul 27, 2016 15:51:16 GMT
I think maybe what's important about the maesters' role in Westerosi history is that they are the ones who are largely responsible for severing mankind's connection from the Old godhead, after initially serving as human ambassadors to the Children and the Old Gods.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
I think maybe what's important about the maesters' role in Westerosi history is that they are the ones who are largely responsible for severing mankind's connection from the Old godhead, after initially serving as human ambassadors to the Children and the Old Gods.
A very interesting idea. If true, it would seem that the maesters themselves would have negotiated the Pact -- or at the very least, played a major role in the negotiations.
I see more every-day, common men being the ones who severed the connection, but your idea does remind me of the possibly leaked / possibly fake Winds of Winter synopsis from amazon.in (India):
Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany's fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final clomactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.
The bold seems to suggest that the maesters and greenseers were once united, but developed a rivalry or blood feud.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Post by Dornish Neck Tie on Jul 27, 2016 18:06:32 GMT
Finally had my World Book returned to me today! Interesting tidbit I found on the base of the High Tower: it's made of the fused black stone favored by the dragonlords, but the style of architecture is distinctly not Valyrian. In fact, the plain style and inner layout consisting of twisting, labyrinthine tunnels bear some resemblance to a hill cave of the CotF.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
I think maybe what's important about the maesters' role in Westerosi history is that they are the ones who are largely responsible for severing mankind's connection from the Old godhead, after initially serving as human ambassadors to the Children and the Old Gods.
A very interesting idea. If true, it would seem that the maesters themselves would have negotiated the Pact -- or at the very least, played a major role in the negotiations.
I see more every-day, common men being the ones who severed the connection, but your idea does remind me of the possibly leaked / possibly fake Winds of Winter synopsis from amazon.in (India):
Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany's fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final clomactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.
The bold seems to suggest that the maesters and greenseers were once united, but developed a rivalry or blood feud.
Yup! The bolded is exactly what set me on this line of thinking. That, and the line about "the wise of both races" forming the Pact. I believe the maesters are numbered among these wise men, regardless of whether the Green Men or potential human greenseers are included as well, and that means they will bear some responsibility for cleaning up this mess.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
This is going to start off as a simple request for information: can anyone find a documented age for the order of the maesters or the Citadel? Because I sure as hell cannot.
Who knows if this is even significant, but it's pretty odd that the maesters seem obsessed with telling us how old every population and historical site are, yet we've never been told how long the maesters themselves have been around from any POV (at least I don't think so).
A fascinating subject.
I may be ninja'd by now, but just to follow Wraith 's first response, I believe the maesters learned ravenry from the children of the forest. It seems like we are told that in the actual novels, via Bran/Leaf/BR. The ravens once spoke the messages themselves, rather than carry letters.
Here is a fun idea. What if the Maesters or even some of them still know the language of ravens? Then they could send false messages with the paper and the ravens could tell the truth.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!