LOL! I hear ya. BUT Lady was dead no matter who swung the sword. He did it so she wouldn't suffer a butcher's knife and so Cersei wouldn't get the pelt. She didn't want the DWs coming south and she was looking for a reason. Ned doing it was a mercy.
True, but what about the time he wanted to kill all of the puppies?
A Mercy, to be sure. Mayhaps baby Jon warranted the same mercy, once upon a time.
In each instance, Lyanna's blood may have convinced him to do otherwise.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
True, but what about the time he wanted to kill all of the puppies?
Wanted to? No sir!
"It be a mercy to kill them," Hullen said. Bran looked to his lord father for rescue, but got only a frown, a furrowed brow. "Hullen speaks truly, son. Better a swift death than a hard one from cold and starvation."
This was when the choice was to kill them there or let nature kill them. Not want, necessary. Before keeping them was even brought up as an option.
"The pups may die anyway, despite all you do."
Non-magical, all-brains, ice-blooded, dutiful Ned did not even consider that option until Jon showed him the way.
Last Edit: Mar 28, 2017 23:44:57 GMT by DarkSister1001: ETA - He may have considered it but I doubt it the way he asks Jon, "what of it?"
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
Meera doesn't dismiss Jojen's dreams the way Luwin does, or the way Ned would have. And Lyanna seems to know things she shouldn't know. Maybe that is just her inquisitive and intuitive capabilities. Maybe it's something more.
Recall that the Stark have crannog blood. So it would not be surprising if some of it surfaced occasionally.
These others, whose faces were carved in stone, might be just that: The Others. We know the Others retain individuality, as they can crack jokes with one another.
'these others', to reiterate your context, are Stark kings in the crypts as dreamed by Theon; so:
for every stark born, an 'other' is born? didn't ser waymar face 6 'others'? then later sam killed one, and Rob was killed....
We have no cause to believe Lyanna's sculpture is different from the others in this regard.
perhaps there is no sword on her lap; when bran and co escaped from the crypts, they took swords from the statues, none from Lyanna's.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
"It be a mercy to kill them," Hullen said. Bran looked to his lord father for rescue, but got only a frown, a furrowed brow. "Hullen speaks truly, son. Better a swift death than a hard one from cold and starvation."
This was when the choice was to kill them there or let nature kill them. Not want, necessary. Before keeping them was even brought up as an option.
"The pups may die anyway, despite all you do."
Non-magical, all-brains, ice-blooded, dutiful Ned did not even consider that option until Jon showed him the way.
LOL! No, you're right. Ned's thoughts of killing the direwolf pups were indeed merciful.
I am just wondering if he gave Lyanna that same coup de grâce... and if he considered it for Jon.
IIRC, Jon was at the Wall when Ned died. Can any of his crypt dreams be tied to the news of Ned's death?
It's difficult to say. But we know the crypt dreams began before Ned's death. The first time Jon mentions them was in Jon IV AGOT (chapter 26). Ned's death comes in chapter 65.
'these others', to reiterate your context, are Stark kings in the crypts as dreamed by Theon; so:
for every stark born, an 'other' is born? didn't ser waymar face 6 'others'? then later sam killed one, and Rob was killed....
I like the way you think.
We don't know if there were only six, but we know there were at least six in the Prologue:
They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them … four … five … Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them. Will had to call out. It was his duty. And his death, if he did. He shivered, and hugged the tree, and kept the silence.
And, in the next chapter, we learn that there are six direwolf pups, one for each of Winterfell's children.
If we are generous, we might include the previous generation as well. Ned and Ben would give us eight, six male (like the at least 6 male Others in the prologue) and two female.
Cat might give us another female, and nine total Starks & Others, if she qualifies as a Stark.
And, in the next chapter, we learn that there are six direwolf pups, one for each of Winterfell's children.
If we are generous, we might include the previous generation as well. Ned and Ben would give us eight, six male (like the at least 6 male Others in the prologue) and two female.
Cat might give us another female, and nine total Starks & Others, if she qualifies as a Stark.
it appears tied together doesn't it? one crow escaped the 6 ww, then he turns up north of WF, just a short distance from the 6 direwolf pups, for the six starklings.
the previous generation: Brandon, Ned and Ben Jen. hmmm. I would not go as far as saying that one of them might have been paired with a direwolf who then ensured that the pups mum would not be labelled 'immaculate'. But many profess that the diremum was paired with Lyanna.
Cat cannot qualify. She is a trout, as you so elegantly put it.
I really hope someone gets the chance to ask GRRM this one.
look at the text:
They had three tomb swords taken from the crypts of Winterfell where Bran and his brother Rickon had hidden from Theon Greyjoy's ironmen. Bran claimed his uncle Brandon's sword, Meera the one she found upon the knees of his grandfather Lord Rickard. Hodor's blade was much older, a huge heavy piece of iron, dull from centuries of neglect and well spotted with rust.
both Bran and Meera who are slight picked up a man's sword, If Lyanna's statue had a sword it should have been somewhat smaller, more suitable for Bran, or is that too much to ask for? I don't think so, GRRM did create 'needle' for Arya.
I know what GRRM would say if asked: 'off topic'.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
I can't go that far, even if I kind of called her a greenseer in the OP. LOL
So maybe I can.
It's pure conjecture of course either way. What stands out to me about Lyanna (that reminds me of Jojen and Meera) is her certainty. Lyanna is extremely certain for a young child-woman. And, well, she's right, where Ned was soooo wrong:
"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."
Then there's her bravery, and her connection to Howland:
"He likes the stories where the knights fight monsters." "Sometimes the knights are the monsters, Bran. The little crannogman was walking across the field, enjoying the warm spring day and harming none, when he was set upon by three squires. They were none older than fifteen, yet even so they were bigger than him, all three. This was their world, as they saw it, and he had no right to be there. They snatched away his spear and knocked him to the ground, cursing him for a frogeater." "Were they Walders?" It sounded like something Little Walder Frey might have done. "None offered a name, but he marked their faces well so he could revenge himself upon them later. They shoved him down every time he tried to rise, and kicked him when he curled up on the ground. But then they heard a roar. 'That's my father's man you're kicking,' howled the she-wolf." "A wolf on four legs, or two?" "Two," said Meera. "The she-wolf laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all. The crannogman was bruised and bloodied, so she took him back to her lair to clean his cuts and bind them up with linen. There he met her pack brothers: the wild wolf who led them, the quiet wolf beside him, and the pup who was youngest of the four.
Meera and Jojen were not afraid to speak inconvenient truths to the heir of Winterfell, and neither was Lyanna.
it appears tied together doesn't it? one crow escaped the 6 ww, then he turns up north of WF, just a short distance from the 6 direwolf pups, for the six starklings.
the previous generation: Brandon, Ned and Ben Jen. hmmm. I would not go as far as saying that one of them might have been paired with a direwolf who then ensured that the pups mum would not be labelled 'immaculate'. But many profess that the diremum was paired with Lyanna.
Cat cannot qualify. She is a trout, as you so elegantly put it.
Glad we agree on the Cat-fish.
I'm definitely in the Lyanna Diremum camp, hence the OP. Only brought up Ned and Benjen to give us six Other men, not to connect them to the wolf.
They had three tomb swords taken from the crypts of Winterfell where Bran and his brother Rickon had hidden from Theon Greyjoy's ironmen. Bran claimed his uncle Brandon's sword, Meera the one she found upon the knees of his grandfather Lord Rickard. Hodor's blade was much older, a huge heavy piece of iron, dull from centuries of neglect and well spotted with rust.
both Bran and Meera who are slight picked up a man's sword, If Lyanna's statue had a sword it should have been somewhat smaller, more suitable for Bran, or is that too much to ask for? I don't think so, GRRM did create 'needle' for Arya.
I know what GRRM would say if asked: 'off topic'.
It makes sense, but still, it would be nice to know for sure. What if Ned gave Lyanna a wooden tourney blade, for example? It would be all the more meaningful, given the KotLT story.
And surely she must at least have a wolf. The show messed me up on this.
There's no way she's just standing there with her hands out, waiting for a feather. LOL
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
so, having a "touch of the magic" is hereditary and runs in the Starks and Eurons... those that don't inherit it are solid and those that do are wild - or intuitive. And they know. Does that sound right?
Faces he had only seen in stone... Lyanna is one, Brandon another. Lord Rickard is there. But then there are the others, pale shades with long faces. These others, whose faces were carved in stone, might be just that: The Others. We know the Others retain individuality, as they can crack jokes with one another.
There's no way Ned didn't give Lyanna a sword and a wolf. No way I tell you!
Depends on the meaning of a sword and a wolf. If they are an honor of nobility and Starkness, then maybe she got them. If they are specific to Lords of Winterfell, then maybe not. If the purpose is to keep the spirit from wandering, then he probably did. If they have another meaning or purpose, then it depends.
I was thinking Lyanna might have offended them in a different way. Not by her Starky Starkishness but by her dishonorable conception of a bastard child.
I think there is some dark purpose in the Lords of Winter. Lyanna learned of that purpose. Lyanna's actions that ultimately lead to her death were either in opposition to that purpose or were involving herself in that purpose. If the Low rejected Lyanna before her abduction, the most obvious reason is RLJ; they knew she was to give birth to a fiery hero
Considering Ned seems to have pardoned Lyanna's behavior, and given her special honors, I get the feeling Ned's welcome to the crypts was also less than amicable. (Not to mention the fact that he personally killed a direwolf)
I wouldn't say he pardoned her. Whatever her actions and whatever the means of her death, she paid for those actions with her life. And that statue had a particular meaning -- giving her an honor that is reserved for the LoW is either somehow putting her in a class with them or is just bizarre.
We are coming upon a high tide of power all over the world in asoiaf, but Westeros feels more like a wind farm and Essos feels more like a nuclear power plant.
And Ned's building of the Sept for her is blasphemy in the eyes of the OGs.
Is it? Polytheists tend to be rather tolerant of other gods. And I haven't seen anything in the text that indicates that the old gods care about someone's religious practice (other than Roose's comment about Stannis, and that is different since the worship of the red god involves burning of Weirwoods)
Ned's proclivity to kill direwolf pups as an act of mercy, "promise me" might have been Lyanna pleading with Ned not to kill her forbidden lovechild.
Alright Bub, you've crossed a line. LOL No way would she even thought Ned capable of such an act! We know how Ned feels about killing children and Robert tells us he's the same as he was as a boy.
But that tendency to protect children might have been caused by his promise to Lya. He wanted to kill those wolf pups. And eventually, he did kill the smallest, gentlest, most trusting one of the litter... just sayin.
Do we have any indication of what Ned was talking about when he argued with King Bob: "Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?" We have a few indications about Ned's opposition to the killing of children, but there seems to be a context that we are not aware of.
They had three tomb swords taken from the crypts of Winterfell where Bran and his brother Rickon had hidden from Theon Greyjoy's ironmen. Bran claimed his uncle Brandon's sword, Meera the one she found upon the knees of his grandfather Lord Rickard. Hodor's blade was much older, a huge heavy piece of iron, dull from centuries of neglect and well spotted with rust.
I wonder if Rickard's bones are in the crypts. Aerys likely burned them to ashes.
both Bran and Meera who are slight picked up a man's sword, If Lyanna's statue had a sword it should have been somewhat smaller, more suitable for Bran, or is that too much to ask for?
When Meera goes looking for a sword she takes Rickard's... which she complains is too heavy for her. If a smaller sword, one fashioned for a woman's hand, were present then Meera would've taken it. Instead she's forced to take a blade she knows is too big for her. Either Lyanna's sword is the same size as Rickard's and thus there was no difference, or there was no sword to take from Lyanna's tomb
Additionally, but Bran however takes Brandon's sword and specifically comments that it feels right in his hand. Brandon's sword is not too big for Bran like Rickard's was for Meera because Bran is still a boy who had practiced with longswords before his injury. And of course Bran is bigger than the crannogmen anyways. Brandon's blade feels right because Bran is the right size for it. Again, indicating IMO that Lyanna would've had a woman sized blade if her statue had one.
There's also the sheer order of the longswords taken. Hodor takes a random many centuries old one after wandering off, but Meera takes Rickard's, Bran takes Brandon's, and Osha takes Eddard. Do you see what I see here? There's a gap in that timeline of who died when: Lyanna. Osha shouldn't have had to take Eddard's sword if Lyanna's sword was there. If they're looking for 3 swords, then why did they skip Lyanna's statue and walk further into the crypts to take the sword from Eddard's statue? Or if they started at Eddard's statue then why did they have to walk to Rickard's tomb to get a 3rd sword? There's 4 statues, yet either way you need to skip someone to only have 3 swords taken from those 3 individuals. And Lyanna is the only one not mentioned.
Another reason why I'd say it's all but certain that Lyanna doesn't have a sword is because the whole purpose of the swords is to lock away their spirit. Yet if you go over it, which seems to have spawned this whole thread, but it seems like Lyanna ghost's clearly isn't at rest.
- Eddard complains of having troubled sleep for conveniently the same amount of time since Lyanna's been dead - Eddard thinks about Lyanna all of AGOT despite her having been long dead, all while barely thinking about other dead people from that time (like his father and brother) - Eddard off the top of my head has 2 dreams featuring Lyanna in AGOT - Robert mentions he dreams of killing Rhaegar every night yet it brings him no joy - While dying Robert hopes for a dream of Lyanna and then dies in peace in his sleep - Jon mentions he's dreamed of a highborn beautiful woman he thinks is his mom - Theon moves into Eddard's bed and has a nightmare featuring Lyanna - Something's been calling Jon to the crypts
Seems to me that there's a strong possibility that Lyanna's ghost is still present and entering peoples dreams and memories. Which would say that her statue doesn't have a sword as that's exactly what it's supposed to prevent.
And finally, while you slightly touched on Eddard mentioning that he knew that Rickard denied Lyanna a sword, I think you went about analyzing that scene the wrong way. Lyanna might have carried a sword IF SHE SO DESIRED. Not if Ned so desired also. Because keep in mind that the actual focus of that scene is not Eddard's dead sister: it's his alive daughter. Who hasn't yet been given Eddard's permission to wield a blade yet. The whole conversation is Eddard FINALLY accepting his daughter for who she is and allowing her to keep Needle. If he'd already decided 15 years ago that Lyanna could've and should've carried a sword, then what does he need to be convinced of with Arya? He'd already spiritually let his sister finally have her sword in death so letting Arya have her sword in life should've been a no brainer, and not something he had to decide on. Or Eddard never gave Lyanna her sword and is only being faced with a similar decision now.
Or, as old Black Crow suggests, "Promise me that Rhaegar died screaming."
Said it before and I'll say it again but we can't just ignore that a promise me DOES occur immediately after Ned tells Robert that he avenged Lyanna at the Trident
"You avenged Lyanna at the Trident," Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.
It pretty glaringly stands out if the promise me stuff was just about "Raise Jon Snow, yadda yadda". Why would Rhaegar's death and Lyanna having been avenged prompt a promise me flashback if there was nothing in the promise me about Rhaegar's death and Lyanna being avenged? This one does point to a darker nature, though I know the standard response is that right before Ned's quote Robert talks about asking Lyanna about "the dragon's honor" so RLJers will say that Lyanna's response would be that Rhaegar did have honor, yadda yadda. Still though, Lyanna ain't Ned. It's Ned who brings up avenging Lyanna and flashing back to whatever he promised her.
Additionally, but it's quite interesting that this promise me occurs after a promise is referenced as having been fulfilled. That is at least, Robert's promise was fulfilled
The king touched her cheek, his fingers brushing across the rough stone as gently as if it were living flesh. "I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her."
After all, what is a vow but another word for a promise?
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
so, having a "touch of the magic" is hereditary and runs in the Starks and Eurons... those that don't inherit it are solid and those that do are wild - or intuitive. And they know. Does that sound right?
It sounds very likely, but I must admit I'm not fully on board with the idea of Euron as one with an Old Gods gift. His talents are more Essosi in nature (the nuclear kind), than Old Gods-y (the renewable wind farm).
What I mean to imply for Theon, is that his Stark-influences run deeper than merely wearing furs and jewels not purchased for the iron price.
Theon, unlike other Greyjoys, seems heavily influenced by weirwoods. In fact, it is the weirwood which leads him lifts him from the fog of his reprogramming as Reek, and returns his consciousness to the original Theon operating system.
For House Stark, I believe the weirwood gift is hereditary. Wolf Blood.
For Theon, he was living at ground zero for many years, and then had a very close encounter with sigils born from "Gods" that had been 200 years dead.
Thanks. It's been a point of some contention, believe it or not. Many have argued over the years that the Others are not autonomously sentient. While I believe this is true of the wights, our encounters with the Others, I believe, strongly suggests otherwise.
They use a spoken language with one another, and use this language for humor. This suggests a high level of cognitive capacity as well as individual and independent minds. Otherwise, there would be no need for spoken language, and everyone would already be laughing at the joke in unison.
Depends on the meaning of a sword and a wolf. If they are an honor of nobility and Starkness, then maybe she got them. If they are specific to Lords of Winterfell, then maybe not. If the purpose is to keep the spirit from wandering, then he probably did. If they have another meaning or purpose, then it depends.
Great point. But as markg171 so astutely pointed out above, the lack of a sword is a strong innuendo in favor of my OP. So I must needs turn my cloak on this issue for that very selfish reason... LOL
I think there is some dark purpose in the Lords of Winter. Lyanna learned of that purpose. Lyanna's actions that ultimately lead to her death were either in opposition to that purpose or were involving herself in that purpose. If the Low rejected Lyanna before her abduction, the most obvious reason is RLJ; they knew she was to give birth to a fiery hero
It is difficult to say how much Lyanna knew of House Stark's dark past, but clearly that dark past exists. Old Nan spelled some of it out for us rather explicitly:
He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.
"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."
Lyanna was certainly inquisitive, intuitive, and intelligent. Add wolf-blood to those mental capacities, and you have yourself a child-woman of surpassing knowingness.
To your other point, I don't think the Lords of Winterfell would shun Lyanna for the mere act of concieving a child with a dragon. According to the semi-canonical world book, they themselves once proposed such a union:
We have earlier discussed House Stark's role in the Dance of the Dragons. Let it be added that Lord Cregan Stark reaped many rewards for his loyal support of King Aegon III...even if it was not a royal princess marrying into his family, as had been agreed in the Pact of Ice and Fire made when the doomed prince Jacaerys Velaryon had flown to Winterfell upon his dragon.
And, Westeros is, traditionally, patrilocal. Male heirs stay home to rule. Brides leave home to marry male heirs who are staying home.
So Lyanna's actions would be very much in line with what was expected of her, socially speaking, if she left and married Rhaegar.
What might be a sin, or at least, a dishonor upon the North, is the act of a lustful woman concieving a bastard out of wedlock. That practice is permitted (if not encouraged) for Lords, but noble women in the Seven Kingdoms are expected to remain virgin until they are wed.
And, I don't think RLJ supports the idea of Jon being a hero. Dragon are not saviors, they are conquerors. Many readers seem to think that Lyanna was gentle and would temper the dragon's wrath.
Why?
Lyanna was not gentle. And wolf-blood does not tame things, it is a wildness within...
If Jon is the product of dragon+direwolf, he will thirst for blood and fire even more than your typical Targaryen. And those are crazy enough.
I wouldn't say he pardoned her. Whatever her actions and whatever the means of her death, she paid for those actions with her life. And that statue had a particular meaning -- giving her an honor that is reserved for the LoW is either somehow putting her in a class with them or is just bizarre.
Agreed. And I think the honor Ned gave her is both bizarre, and putting her in a class with them.
What we must wonder is why. The reason cannot be the Gift of Old Gods. Ned was famously not a man who put faith in signs.
What stands out to me, as I brought up in the Are El Jay? thread, is that the placement and treatment of Lyanna would put her right next to Ned upon his death. Ned mentions no place for Catelyn. Ned will rest (or be unrestful) beside Lyanna for eternity.
Do we have any indication of what Ned was talking about when he argued with King Bob: "Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?"
Imo, it is in reference to the Mad King's extermination of every man, woman, and child from Houses Darklyn and Hollard after the Defiance of Duskendale.
This made the Mad King even madder, and provided rebels with just cause to argue their usurpation.
both Bran and Meera who are slight picked up a man's sword, If Lyanna's statue had a sword it should have been somewhat smaller, more suitable for Bran, or is that too much to ask for?
When Meera goes looking for a sword she takes Rickard's... which she complains is too heavy for her. If a smaller sword, one fashioned for a woman's hand, were present then Meera would've taken it. Instead she's forced to take a blade she knows is too big for her. Either Lyanna's sword is the same size as Rickard's and thus there was no difference, or there was no sword to take from Lyanna's tomb
Well done arrysfleas and markg171. After all this canon, I can only agree.
Additionally, but Bran however takes Brandon's sword and specifically comments that it feels right in his hand. Brandon's sword is not too big for Bran like Rickard's was for Meera because Bran is still a boy who had practiced with longswords before his injury. And of course Bran is bigger than the crannogmen anyways. Brandon's blade feels right because Bran is the right size for it. Again, indicating IMO that Lyanna would've had a woman sized blade if her statue had one.
So there's hope for the wooden tourney sword from Harrenhal? LOL
There's also the sheer order of the longswords taken. Hodor takes a random many centuries old one after wandering off, but Meera takes Rickard's, Bran takes Brandon's, and Osha takes Eddard. Do you see what I see here? There's a gap in that timeline of who died when: Lyanna. Osha shouldn't have had to take Eddard's sword if Lyanna's sword was there. If they're looking for 3 swords, then why did they skip Lyanna's statue and walk further into the crypts to take the sword from Eddard's statue? Or if they started at Eddard's statue then why did they have to walk to Rickard's tomb to get a 3rd sword? There's 4 statues, yet either way you need to skip someone to only have 3 swords taken from those 3 individuals. And Lyanna is the only one not mentioned.
I really like this. I've become a fan of this sort of pragmatic chronological reasoning. Hard to argue with a canonical timeline.
Another reason why I'd say it's all but certain that Lyanna doesn't have a sword is because the whole purpose of the swords is to lock away their spirit. Yet if you go over it, which seems to have spawned this whole thread, but it seems like Lyanna ghost's clearly isn't at rest.
- Eddard complains of having troubled sleep for conveniently the same amount of time since Lyanna's been dead - Eddard thinks about Lyanna all of AGOT despite her having been long dead, all while barely thinking about other dead people from that time (like his father and brother) - Eddard off the top of my head has 2 dreams featuring Lyanna in AGOT - Robert mentions he dreams of killing Rhaegar every night yet it brings him no joy - While dying Robert hopes for a dream of Lyanna and then dies in peace in his sleep - Jon mentions he's dreamed of a highborn beautiful woman he thinks is his mom - Theon moves into Eddard's bed and has a nightmare featuring Lyanna - Something's been calling Jon to the crypts
Seems to me that there's a strong possibility that Lyanna's ghost is still present and entering peoples dreams and memories. Which would say that her statue doesn't have a sword as that's exactly what it's supposed to prevent.
Sold.
And great points. I can only thank you for raising them.
And finally, while you slightly touched on Eddard mentioning that he knew that Rickard denied Lyanna a sword, I think you went about analyzing that scene the wrong way. Lyanna might have carried a sword IF SHE SO DESIRED. Not if Ned so desired also. Because keep in mind that the actual focus of that scene is not Eddard's dead sister: it's his alive daughter. Who hasn't yet been given Eddard's permission to wield a blade yet. The whole conversation is Eddard FINALLY accepting his daughter for who she is and allowing her to keep Needle. If he'd already decided 15 years ago that Lyanna could've and should've carried a sword, then what does he need to be convinced of with Arya? He'd already spiritually let his sister finally have her sword in death so letting Arya have her sword in life should've been a no brainer, and not something he had to decide on. Or Eddard never gave Lyanna her sword and is only being faced with a similar decision now.
You're right of course. I was copying Ned's acceptance of Arya's Needle, and pasting it onto early-grave Lyanna.
But I'd still like her to have had a wooden tourney sword placed on her lap. 14 years in a dark tomb is plenty of time for it to rot. And rather than ward against spirits, as Iron is said to do, wood (in asoiaf) carries them.
Said it before and I'll say it again but we can't just ignore that a promise me DOES occur immediately after Ned tells Robert that he avenged Lyanna at the Trident
"You avenged Lyanna at the Trident," Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.
It pretty glaringly stands out if the promise me stuff was just about "Raise Jon Snow, yadda yadda". Why would Rhaegar's death and Lyanna having been avenged prompt a promise me flashback if there was nothing in the promise me about Rhaegar's death and Lyanna being avenged? This one does point to a darker nature, though I know the standard response is that right before Ned's quote Robert talks about asking Lyanna about "the dragon's honor" so RLJers will say that Lyanna's response would be that Rhaegar did have honor, yadda yadda. Still though, Lyanna ain't Ned. It's Ned who brings up avenging Lyanna and flashing back to whatever he promised her.
I don't want to turn this thread into an RLJ vs alternative thread, but I do agree this statement from Ned supports the idea that Robert did indeed avenge Lyanna at the Trident. It may well be that this was one of Lyanna's requested promises, but it still feels like a bit of a leap to make.
Additionally, but it's quite interesting that this promise me occurs after a promise is referenced as having been fulfilled. That is at least, Robert's promise was fulfilled
The king touched her cheek, his fingers brushing across the rough stone as gently as if it were living flesh. "I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her."
After all, what is a vow but another word for a promise?
LOL! Agreed. And Ned draws this same equation:
"I will," Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept hisvows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
It pretty glaringly stands out if the promise me stuff was just about "Raise Jon Snow, yadda yadda". Why would Rhaegar's death and Lyanna having been avenged prompt a promise me flashback if there was nothing in the promise me about Rhaegar's death and Lyanna being avenged?
It was Ned who made the promises that were kept. I take that "promise me" as "Don't let Robert learn the truth."
Thanks. It's been a point of some contention, believe it or not. Many have argued over the years that the Others are not autonomously sentient. While I believe this is true of the wights, our encounters with the Others, I believe, strongly suggests otherwise.
They use a spoken language with one another, and use this language for humor. This suggests a high level of cognitive capacity as well as individual and independent minds. Otherwise, there would be no need for spoken language, and everyone would already be laughing at the joke in unison.
Oh, I can believe it. I quite like the theories that the Others have some sort of hive-mind, but I don't think there is evidence to support it.
Great point. But as markg171 so astutely pointed out above, the lack of a sword is a strong innuendo in favor of my OP. So I must needs turn my cloak on this issue for that very selfish reason... LOL
At least for the moment, I am convinced that there is no sword. I don't like it, but markg171 wins the day with an elegant argument
It is difficult to say how much Lyanna knew of House Stark's dark past, but clearly that dark past exists.
I think that dark past is more recent as well. I think the Mad King burned Rickard and made Brandon watch in order to reveal something about Rickard. Benjen went to the Wall for a reason. And Ned is pragmatic enough that he wouldn't have paid a high price to keep promises simply for sentimental reasons.
To your other point, I don't think the Lords of Winterfell would shun Lyanna for the mere act of concieving a child with a dragon.
Agreed. But they might shun her for being the mother of a fiery prophecy-baby. I'm not saying that is the reason. I not really on-board with RLJ (although it has some strong attractions). But I do think Lyanna had some dark purpose in her actions.
And, I don't think RLJ supports the idea of Jon being a hero. Dragon are not saviors, they are conquerors.
Most conquerors are heroes from someone's perspective. If agree with you that RLJ likely leads to Jon the Terrible. In the real world (and in GRRM's world) heroes are (at best) morally ambiguous.
What we must wonder is why. The reason cannot be the Gift of Old Gods. Ned was famously not a man who put faith in signs.
Ned was never meant to be Lord and doesn't seem to have the gift, but he seems to know things. When Ned dismisses prophecy, I wonder if he isn't trying to hide something (as he seems to be doing with Dany). I wonder whether Ned killed Will in order to silence him. I think Lyanna wanted the power of the crypt-net and Ned's actions with her bones and statue are related to that desire.
What stands out to me, as I brought up in the Are El Jay? thread, is that the placement and treatment of Lyanna would put her right next to Ned upon his death. Ned mentions no place for Catelyn. Ned will rest (or be unrestful) beside Lyanna for eternity.
Maybe, but I don't think sentimentality is enough to justify a statue. He went to that amount of trouble because he believes in some form of life after death.
Oh, I can believe it. I quite like the theories that the Others have some sort of hive-mind, but I don't think there is evidence to support it.
I think there is evidence to support the idea that the Others control wights using a sort of hive-mind ability. But, the text is pretty clear, in my opinion, that the Others are autonomously sentient.
I think the Night's King, for example, would find Varamyr's "six skins" to be rather unimpressive.
I think that dark past is more recent as well. I think the Mad King burned Rickard and made Brandon watch in order to reveal something about Rickard. Benjen went to the Wall for a reason. And Ned is pragmatic enough that he wouldn't have paid a high price to keep promises simply for sentimental reasons.
Mayhaps. I see Lyanna as a return to the norm for House Stark (200+ years ago "normal"), rather than an abomination of it.
But I do agree she may have comitted an act they found abhorrent.
With Rickard and Brandon, it is harder to say. What do you imagine the Mad King revealed?
Agreed. But they might shun her for being the mother of a fiery prophecy-baby. I'm not saying that is the reason. I not really on-board with RLJ (although it has some strong attractions). But I do think Lyanna had some dark purpose in her actions.
It is hard for me to associate her with a dark purpose. Although if Arya is cut from the same cloth as Lyanna, I suppose it really shouldn't be.
Most conquerors are heroes from someone's perspective. If agree with you that RLJ likely leads to Jon the Terrible. In the real world (and in GRRM's world) heroes are (at best) morally ambiguous.
True.
I'm just saying that a wolf riding a dragon might not be inspiring to the smallfolk as their eyes begin to melt from their heads ala Quentyn Martell.
Ned was never meant to be Lord and doesn't seem to have the gift, but he seems to know things. When Ned dismisses prophecy, I wonder if he isn't trying to hide something (as he seems to be doing with Dany). I wonder whether Ned killed Will in order to silence him. I think Lyanna wanted the power of the crypt-net and Ned's actions with her bones and statue are related to that desire.
Ned is clearly hiding something, but I think that something is simply Lyanna.
In the show, Ned killed Will, but in the books, Ned killed Gared. But yes, I do think Ned was troubled by what Gared had to say.
I'm torn regarding how active Lyanna was in this. She might have had weir-net ambitions, or she might have simply felt at home in Winterfell's godswood. I lean towards the latter, but definitely would not dismiss the former.
Maybe, but I don't think sentimentality is enough to justify a statue. He went to that amount of trouble because he believes in some form of life after death.
It is odd that the Starks would build such statues only to give them swords to keep their spirits at bay. Why not just not-build the statues? That way the swords wouldn't be able to go missing or rust away...
It feels like an unnecessary addition. But GRRM does like to make his characters pay for being honorable. Perhaps the honor of having a statue in Wintefell's crypts are meant to hide a similar consequence.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."