Thank you for pointing out a hint of Neddard's superstitious and spiritual side! Although, I do think Ned believes in ghosts, because he has been haunted by Lyanna's ghost for years. Pure speculation on my part!
I think that Sept needs to go! Maybe it burnt to the ground when Ramsay torched the place? I will need to look into that. However, I wonder if the old gods really care about a sept of the seven or not?
Looks like it...
Osha called softly through the blowing smoke as they went, but no one answered. They saw one dog worrying at a corpse, but he ran when he caught the scents of the direwolves; the rest had been slain in the kennels. The maester's ravens were paying court to some of the corpses, while the crows from the broken tower attended others. Bran recognized Poxy Tym, even though someone had taken an axe to his face. One charred corpse, outside the ashen shell of Mother's sept, sat with his arms drawn up and his hands balled into hard black fists, as if to punch anyone who dared approach him. "If the gods are good," Osha said in a low angry voice, "the Others will take them that did this work." ACoK Bran VII
Osha called softly through the blowing smoke as they went, but no one answered. They saw one dog worrying at a corpse, but he ran when he caught the scents of the direwolves; the rest had been slain in the kennels. The maester's ravens were paying court to some of the corpses, while the crows from the broken tower attended others. Bran recognized Poxy Tym, even though someone had taken an axe to his face. One charred corpse, outside the ashen shell of Mother's sept, sat with his arms drawn up and his hands balled into hard black fists, as if to punch anyone who dared approach him. "If the gods are good," Osha said in a low angry voice, "the Others will take them that did this work." ACoK Bran VII
A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.
This makes me think of this:
"Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."
Jon's changes at the Wall came from a place of love and logic but could not change the nature of all the men around him.
I love Osha! I wonder what kind of guidance she is giving to our wild child Rickon?
And these "sweet" things do draw our attention to Lyanna and Jon as a unit.
As to Jon at the wall, I love your statement! Jon was trying to do the best for everyone, not just the Watch, and it seems like some of his brothers did not care to understand. However, I still wonder about Bowen Marsh's tears and Wick Whittlestick's reactions? I just can't help but wonder about the true intent behind the actions!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I love Osha! I wonder what kind of guidance she is giving to our wild child Rickon?
It's funny, all the Starks have a base in WF/The North/The Old Gods but each one of them (sans Robb - who just so happens to be dead)) is getting lessons from different teachers from around the world. It's be great to see what those teachings produce.
As to Jon at the wall, I love your statement! Jon was trying to do the best for everyone, not just the Watch, and it seems like some of his brothers did not care to understand. However, I still wonder about Bowen Marsh's tears and Wick Whittlestick's reactions? I just can't help but wonder about the true intent behind the actions!
Thanks and I agree! Jon is clearly being pushed away after trying to crawl off a little. Lyanna may have crawled away from her family (betrothed included) when she was unhappy with the direction she was being pushed.
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
Yes, GRRM does seem to view women as soul suckers, but he doesn't seem hateful about it, which is generous! I also agree on the love triangles in GRRM life and writing. Who do you think the triangle was with the 13th Lord Commander and his Night Queen? His brother the Stark in Winterfell? Could they all have been siblings? Good lord, do I see incest in this story every where now???
LOL I'm hesitant to go quite that far.
In the case of the 13th man to lead the NW, I think the love triangle, for him, could be seen as a choice between love and duty. Unlike Benjen, his 'mistress' was not 'honor'. I think the vows were amended after this 13th hero's tenure because of his acts with his queen during the Long Night, but that is another topic.
But yes, rather than a case of sibling rivalry over a sister (lol), I think the love triangle in this case came down to a man's personality being split in two. ...a man by day, something else by night:
No, Bran thought, but he walked in this castle, where we'll sleep tonight. He did not like that notion very much at all. Night's King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule. And it's getting dark.
By day, he was a man like any other. This, to me, suggests that he was dutiful and human during what passed for 'daylight' during the long night... aka, the Winter Sun sigil of House Karstark:
This is all rather inferential and speculative, I know, but I think it does bear support in the text.
Robb and Rickon, yes. Bran, not so much. He's fairly calm and gentle. Not sure about the girls, Arya certainly has a temper, and Sansa has flashes, but both can be very tender. Jon, yes! But different than Robb or Rickon, who seem on the edge all the time. Jon simmers for a long time, then blows the lid of the pot!
Bran is calm and gentle, but he also engaged in cannibalism with a dead man (lunch with Coldhands), and regularly traumatizes a mentally-handicapped man by stealing control of his body just so he can go cave-exploring.
The Stark wargs have some serious issues with impulse control, and I think Ned's wolf-blood comment applies to them rather perfectly. Clearly, Robb was led to an early grave due to his wolf blood. Robb's wolf blood might even rival Brandon's, as each slid their swords into sheaths that violated their marriage pacts.
Regarding tenderness, yes. Both Arya and Sansa can be tender. But I don't think Lyanna was without tenderness. And even the actual wolves have their tender moments (such as Summer's guard over Bran's comatose body, or Nymeria's attempts to follow Arya even while being stoned by Arya). So in my mind, tenderness and wolf-blood are not mutually exclusive.
But Bran is not Old Nan's "sweet Summer child" anymore. He's as wild and powerhungry as they come. He's more like Varamyr Sixskins, today, than he is like the boy who dreamed of becoming a knight of the kingsguard.
If this gift/ability does lie in people who are in proximity to weirwoods and have First Men blood, then that certainly covers the north and north of the wall. I wonder about the Andal Manderly transplants who have a huge weirwood growing in their back yard. Or even some southron houses?
Casterly Rock is said to have a weirwood that is twisted (I think) and it grows over a huge rock that has tunnel's beneath it. Jaime did have that weirwood stump dream that caused him to return to Harrenhal and save Brienne.
It's easy to think of the Lannisters as Andals, and even GRRM himself seems to have made this mistake before, but according to the text, the Lannisters are fellow First Men. Like the wolves and Bran the Builder, the lions are descended from Lann the Clever – two Age of Heroes archetypes.
And in Highgarden, there are three weirwoods called the Three Singers. Singers sounds a bit Child of the Forest-ish to me! That Margaery Tyrell is pretty sly, maybe she knows a thing or two?
Considering GRRM's opinion of his mother, I have no doubt book-Margaery has more to offer us than show-Margaery:
Often, fans place a great deal of import on the identity of Jon's father. They forget that GRRM was estranged from his own father, and that he loved and respected his mother to a far greater degree. Art imitates life, and although you wouldn't know it from watching D&D rape Sansa on HBO, GRRM is a hardcore feminist.
Our beloved author's mother was Margaret Brady, and is idealized in the beautifula and intelligent character we know as Margaery Tyrell. He has stated that she would often guess the end of a book or movie, and that in ASOIAF he hoped to write a story that would be difficult for her to solve.
Notice that GRRM has not allowed any of Margaery's husbands to live very long. LOL
Heck, along with her very intelligent mother, Margaery killed the last asshole. I'm thinking GRRM loved and respected his maternal grandmother very much.
By contrast, George's father was Raymond Collins Martin. His occupation was that of longshoreman. We have precious few Raymonds in asoiaf (unless Rhaegar was one), but we have plenty of longshoremen. The Iron Islands teem with them. They are brutish, anti-intellectual, and their primary means of courtship is the act of stealing and raping women. There is one among them who is fond of learning, and he is derided as The Reader, while the others are praised as Reavers. GRRM has daddy issues.
In A Feast for Crows, Brienne IV, we meet the one and only Raymond in asoiaf:
"You leave me down here alone, I could bloody well steal your horses," Crabb called up from below. "Best you get them up the ladder too, m'lady." When she ignored him, he went on to say, "It's going to rain tonight. A cold hard rain. You and Pods will sleep all snug and warm, and poor old Dick will be shivering down here by myself." He shook his head, muttering, as he made a bed on a pile of hay. "I never knew such a mistrustful maid as you." Brienne curled up beneath her cloak, with Podrick yawning at her side. I was not always wary, she might have shouted down at Crabb. When I was a little girl I believed that all men were as noble as my father. Even the men who told her what a pretty girl she was, how tall and bright and clever, how graceful when she danced. It was Septa Roelle who had lifted the scales from her eyes. "They only say those things to win your lord father's favor," the woman had said. "You'll find truth in your looking glass, not on the tongues of men." It was a harsh lesson, one that left her weeping, but it had stood her in good stead at Harrenhal when Ser Hyle and his friends had played their game. A maid has to be mistrustful in this world, or she will not be a maid for long, she was thinking, as the rain began to fall. In the mêlée at Bitterbridge she had sought out her suitors and battered them one by one, Farrow and Ambrose and Bushy, Mark Mullendore and Raymond Nayland and Will the Stork. She had ridden over Harry Sawyer and broken Robin Potter's helm, giving him a nasty scar. And when the last of them had fallen, the Mother had delivered Connington to her. This time Ser Ronnet held a sword and not a rose. Every blow she dealt him was sweeter than a kiss.
Brienne, a strong and independent woman, beats the shit out of Raymond because in her youth, he was a disrespectful suitor.
So... apologies for that tangent. Hopefully it was interesting. LOL
To tie it back to our conversation, I think that for the character of Jon Snow, GRRM is doing two things:
He is toying with the notion of nobility for Jon's father. Jon's father sired a bastard. Jon believes it was Ned, who might be his uncle, or both his uncle and his father, and struggles to be as honorable as Lord Eddard of the House Stark. Yet, per Jon's understanding, his "father" sired a bastard and would not speak his mother's name.
He is toying with the notion of ignobility for Jon's mother. Jon's mother caused the dutiful Eddard Stark to stain his honor, and Jon is the stain. Jon believes she was common, but dreams that she was highborn and beautiful. He struggles with her identity, and wonders if she is alive, knows who he is, cares about him, etc. Toad and Donal Noye suggest Jon's mother might have been a whore, and this understandably bothers him and troubles him. He doesn't know what she was. Jon Snow knows nothing, tis true. But he does "know" that whoever she was, she caused Lord Eddard Stark to dishonor himself.
Jon Snow is a heart in conflict with itself, I believe, because he fears the wrong parent.
I agree on this concept wholeheartedly. I think that Starks were trying to breed the gift of magic into the Stark line to help grant them an advantage over the other Kings in the North. Combining that with the notion of justice is the reason they were able to conquer and solidify the North.
Of this, there can be no doubt. Aside from the warg-ly hints in the crypts and sigil, there is ample evidence that House Stark rose to power during the Long Night, and that this authority was tethered to magical gifts. There is the title, King of Winter, that should remind us of the Night's King (who was clearly the first Magnar/King of Winter). There is the sword Ice, whose name dates to the Age of Heroes (the era which ushered in the Long Night). And there is the Bolton tradition of flaying Starks, which seems to be a very literal acknowlegement of Stark-skinchangers.
Then we have the odd bits of intel; Bloodraven's comment that Bran's blood makes him a greenseer, for instance. Bran has the same blood as Robb and Sansa and Arya and Rickon. Thus their blood might've enabled them to become greenseers too, if they ate some weirwood paste. Jon seems to have a natural weirwood marriage happening via Ghost, so it seems that Jon's blood has given him this potential as well.
There is also this:
After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor. A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows. The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them. Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand. "No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.
Which Brandon?
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
It's easy to think of the Lannisters as Andals, and even GRRM himself seems to have made this mistake before, but according to the text, the Lannisters are fellow First Men.
indeed, Lann the Clever was a FM; an Andal FM:
WIF - The Westerlands That was when the golden-haired rogue called Lann the Clever appeared from out of the east. Some say he was an Andal adventurer from across the narrow sea, though this was millennia before the coming of the Andals to Westeros.
If you care to look at the basic Andal traits, the Lannisters are their closest match...but i admit that you need to look at the background history in Essos for that.
Why is it that most readers can only see ONE FM migration from Essos to Westeros when they can imagine DOZENS of parentage for Jon?
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
It's easy to think of the Lannisters as Andals, and even GRRM himself seems to have made this mistake before, but according to the text, the Lannisters are fellow First Men.
indeed, Lann the Clever was a FM; an Andal FM:
WIF - The Westerlands That was when the golden-haired rogue called Lann the Clever appeared from out of the east. Some say he was an Andal adventurer from across the narrow sea, though this was millennia before the coming of the Andals to Westeros.
If you care to look at the basic Andal traits, the Lannisters are their closest match...but i admit that you need to look at the background history in Essos for that.
Why is it that most readers can only see ONE FM migration from Essos to Westeros when they can imagine DOZENS of parentage for Jon?
You're completely right. I fall into that trap far too often.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Combining that with the notion of justice is the reason they were able to conquer and solidify the North.
i am not so sure that the ruthlessness of their invasion and subjugation of the north, the killing of their kings etc, has much to do with justice. Unless these kings were known tyrants, of which there is scant evidence.
But, i agree, it appears that over the millennia they have acquired a very loyal following. So, something changed them from ruthless invaders to benevolent rulers.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Combining that with the notion of justice is the reason they were able to conquer and solidify the North.
i am not so sure that the ruthlessness of their invasion and subjugation of the north, the killing of their kings etc, has much to do with justice. Unless these kings were known tyrants, of which there is scant evidence.
But, i agree, it appears that over the millennia they have acquired a very loyal following. So, something changed them from ruthless invaders to benevolent rulers.
I dropped a link to a essay on the Stark unification of the North on the previous page of this discussion. I was referring to Justice as more of the First Men notion and not the modern ideal. Speaking of which did you enjoy it stdaga,
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
I dropped a link to a essay on the Stark unification of the North on the previous page of this discussion.
yes, thanks for the link. I have read it, and it is definitely both well written and very interesting.
The author establishes that the Stark's conquests radiated from Winterfell, rather than on it's way north to WF; which could have been the case is the original 'Brandon' came from the Reach as per the WIF.
Unfortunately it sheds little light as to how they got to WF without being stopped at the Neck on their way there. There are alternatives:
- the link to Brandon the Bloody Blade and his massacres in the Reach (the Red lake) is mischievous rumours spread by subjugated foes - the link is true and the Brandons came north as part of the Last Hero's banding of the NW - the Brandons/Starks never came from the south, but like other northern FM came from the north and settled an empty WF First Keep; then BBB went south to cause mayhem.
I tend to think that a 'Brandon' rode north as part of the emerging NW, led by the LH and his magic sword, and fought in the battle for the Dawn. Whether that battle took place near WF or the NF remains to be learnt from the weirwoods. But the Wall was built at the NF and our Brandon appropriated WF (to the dejection of the Boltons, I may add). I also think that the Brandons not only erased the name of the NK from the records, but also that of the LH and whether he or the LH build the Wall, in the end he came with the accolades. This Brandon of WF had a showdown with the LH/NK at the Nightfort, then took control of the Wall and the Watch.
Looking at the etymology of the word Stark, one can surmise that the Brandons were renamed Starks considering their subsequent ruthless conquests.
Having said all that, the essay is very good in explaining the success of these Starks, using the principle of 'Unite to conquer', more appropriate in such harsh lands.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
For the sake of your argument, I will say that Lyanna was a greenseer. I wonder what awakened her gift? It seems like Bran's gift being woken might have been related to his fall/possible death/possible rebirth situation, so what awakened Lyanna's gift? Or maybe it does not need to be awakened at all? Possibly, Bran's situation is different because the process needed to be hurried?
However, if there are 40-75 people in Westeros that have this gift, then I am inclined to think that Rickon also has it. That kid is not only a bit feral, but his direworlf has green eyes, and the CoF see red and green eyes as special. That would possibly indicate that Jon could have this gift as well, since Ghost has red eyes. Could all the Stark children of this generation also have the ability to be greenseer's? I must say I have often wondered about Sansa, and some of the dreams she has, dreams that almost seem prophetic. The more the merrier and makes a bit more sense with the 40-75 possibilities.
But back to Lyanna ...
Re Lyanna, I don't think her gift was ever awakened. I think she was sensitive to the old powers, and growing up next to a weirwood, was likely influenced by them to a large degree. But this is likely true for most, or even all, Starks. According to BR, Bran's blood makes him a greenseer.
And that is telling. It wasn't Bran's fall, nor the three-eyed crow, nor the opening of his third eye, nor his direwolf, nor his eye color, nor the eye color of his wolf.
Just his blood.
Bran's blood is unique in Westeros, but not unique in Winterfell. It may well be possible that BR would have said this same thing to Catelyn Tully when she was a little girl, but I somehow doubt it. I think BR is referencing Bran's Stark-lineage. I may well be wrong, and I admit that this is a biased way to look at it, but I think there is enough support in the text to entertain this idea.
"There must always be a Stark in Winterfell."
"Your blood makes you a greenseer."
Tyrion:
He remembered their godswood; the tall sentinels armored in their grey-green needles, the great oaks, the hawthorn and ash and soldier pines, and at the center the heart tree standing like some pale giant frozen in time. He could almost smell the place, earthy and brooding, the smell of centuries, and he remembered how dark the wood had been even by day. That wood was Winterfell. It was the north. I never felt so out of place as I did when I walked there, so much an unwelcome intruder. He wondered if the Greyjoys would feel it too. The castle might well be theirs, but never that godswood. Not in a year, or ten, or fifty.
Catelyn:
"Sometimes," Catelyn said slowly, "the best thing you can do is nothing. When I first came to Winterfell, I was hurt whenever Ned went to the godswood to sit beneath his heart tree. Part of his soul was in that tree, I knew, a part I would never share. Yet without that part, I soon realized, he would not have been Ned. Jeyne, child, you have wed the north, as I did . . . and in the north, the winters will come." She tried to smile. "Be patient. Be understanding. He loves you and he needs you, and he will come back to you soon enough. This very night, perhaps. Be there when he does. That is all I can tell you."
Starks belong to Winterfell. It quite literally possesses them, in both body and soul.
Rickon's wolf doesn't seem that special to me. Black fur and green eyes are normal in the wolf-world, even if they are rare for children of the forest.
But albinism is rare.
Interestingly, however, it can be caused by inbreeding.
Again, for the sake of your theory, we will say that Lyanna is Jon's mother, which I am pretty certain is the truth, but who knows what GRRM will actually throw at us. He can change a lot of our thoughts in one simple paragraph on tWoW if he so chooses.
Indeed. And it is a very worthwhile thing to remember. This is a theory built upon a theory. According to canon, Wylla is Jon's mother.
I wrote this theory for two main reasons. First, to demonstrate just how rare it is (today) for an entire generation of children to exhibit these gifts from the Old Gods, but also to demonstrate that House Stark might have always been gifted in this way. Secondly, it seems that Jon is more rare than the others. Even more rare than his rare-gift siblings.
Why is that?
Why is he being called to the crypts, yet shunned by the Kings of Winter?
As we know, every one of them are male. Every sculpture in those crypts is of a stern man. And every one of them seem to rebuke Jon Snow.
But deeper, lower, there is a presence that calls out to him. A silent beacon.
Okay, so if Lyanna sent the wolf pups, did she make one of them albino? How does one influence that? Is that why Brynden Rivers was albino, because some long ago greenseer influenced his genes? It seems a stretch.
I see Lyanna as a unique soul amidst many. A unique consciousness that was given special honors in WF's crypts. And I see WF's crypts as plant food for trees that preserve consciousness forever and ever. She is a part of the godhood, and direwolves are too.
I think Ghost came out unique, and marked by the Old Gods, because those children really were meant to have those pups, and one of those children was an outcast.
I can see why it seems like a stretch. But for me, it seems like an even bigger stretch to think that Ghost's albinism is a coincidence. If it isn't a coincidence, we must ask ourselves what makes Jon special in an Old Gods kind of way. And for me, personally, Lyanna is the only plausible explanation.
Ned can't be the reason, because the other children are Ned's, and their wolves are the normal colors of wolves.
Winterfell is not Winterfell without that Heart Tree. And when the hour drew near for there to no longer be a Stark in Winterfell, an hour of ghosts in Winterfell (which is literally a chapter name, ADWD ch.46), that Heart Tree clung close to the side of but one of Winterfell's children. Just one.
They all have a kinship to Winterfell, and Winterfell possesses all of them, but Wintefell's heart accompanied only one. The bastard.
Bran saw his father's face change, saw the other men exchange glances. He loved Jon with all his heart at that moment. Even at seven, Bran understood what his brother had done. The count had come right only because Jon had omitted himself. He had included the girls, included even Rickon, the baby, but not the bastard who bore the surname Snow, the name that custom decreed be given to all those in the north unlucky enough to be born with no name of their own.
Jon speaks for the Old Gods, even without eating weirwood paste. I think that gift came from Lyanna.
I do think that Lyanna does reside in the weirnet. We have this description of her in Ned's dreams as eyes weeping blood. The weirwood trees eyes look to be weeping blood, as the sap run from the carvings.
If you accept that Lyanna resides in the weirnet, then the above doesn't seem like much of a stretch from that.
And I do not mean to suggest that she entered the she-wolf and manipulated the genes of Ghost, in utero. That isn't at all necessary. I think Lyanna's presence in the weirnet is enough to initiate such markings for her son's pup. Of all the children of Winterfell, Jon is the only one whose mother is a silent, unseen presence. A ghost.
This is the tree in the village that the wights attack Sam and Gilly and incest baby Craster at. This tree more than any other reminds me of Lyanna and her tears of blood. I think she was watching Sam, trying to help him. Sam has strange dreams that night, and I would guess this is related to the weirwood. Maybe Lyanna sent Sam that dream, just as you speculate that Lyanna is sending Jon his crypt dreams? Sam and Gilly also received help from the ravens, who attacked the wights, so maybe there was more than one force trying to help them at that time, unless Lyanna sent the ravens. I think of Bloodraven of course, when I think of ravens, so I always attributed this to him. When Sam kills the Other with the dragonglass dagger, he hears a voice talking to him, telling him what to do; he thinks it is Jon's voice, but maybe it was Lyanna whispering to him, but I don't think a weirwood was near? We know Jon is alive so I don't see how he could be in the wiernet at this time. Maybe Sam just heard what he needed to hear to act?
So, I buy what you are selling me about Lyanna being part of the collective. But I think that Ned is, too.
I wouldn't be surprised if she or Bloodraven had influenced Sam's dreams. But I do not think that anyone is "sending" Jon his crypt dreams. This is where my culture/upbringing colors my interpretation quite a bit.
I view dreams as forms of spirit flight – cycles in which our consciousness becomes unthetered from waking physical experiences. Rather than view the crypt dreams as implants installed by a another power/spirit/consciousness, I view them as Jon's own power/his own ability/his own lucid spirit flight/journey.
Jon is Jon in his crypt dreams. These dreams are not at all like his wolf dreams, in which he is Ghost. In his crypt dreams, Jon is the outcast, the bastard. And the Kings of Winter do not abide bastards in their crypts.
But someone/something in that barrow is drawing him deeper in spite of those granite voices.
I view those things as actually happening. Not happening in waking-life. They are only happening in the realm of untethered consciousness. Some might view the latter as not-real. And I don't disagree. But I can appreciate the idea that the latter is simply a different reality. Many dreams are silly, but so are many waking moments. Moments of import, and life changing events, are rare – in both dreams and waking. But both exist for a reason, and we should respect each. At least, that's how I was raised.
So in this way, I view Jon as escaping his waking life and returning to his untethered consciousness on a regular basis. In that latter state, someone/something is drawing him deeper into the crypts in spite of the cold, hard, granite voices of the Kings of Winter and Lords of Winterfell.
It calls to him while he is awake, too. But waking-senses are different, as are waking-duties. But even in spite of those waking-disadvantages to understanding untethered consciousness, Jon is able to hear the silent voices of that other realm.
Halfway across the bridge, Jon pulled up suddenly. "What is it, Jon?" their lord father asked. "Can't you hear it?" Bran could hear the wind in the trees, the clatter of their hooves on the ironwood planks, the whimpering of his hungry pup, but Jon was listening to something else.
Lyanna's weirwood presence is the only possible explanation for Jon being the only person able to hear Ghost – who makes no sound – in my opinion.
How do people end up in the weirnet? Ned didn't die near a weirwood and as it seems like his bones are still missing and he has not been laid to rest under a weirwood or in the crypts, but I think his spirit resides in the collective. Maybe every living soul does end up a part of the weirnet when it dies, no matter where or how it dies (or if a greeshka consumes it)? Any way, Ned was obviously still alive when the direwolf pups showed up, so he could not have sent them, so possibly Lyanna did. I can't say for sure, but I do think that a being associated with the weirnet sent the pups. Certainly all the the pups are special.
All the pups are certainly special. But I have a feeling they would not have been special in the arms of non-Starks.
Starks+Direwolves=Special
Wildlings+Direwolves=Meh
We have no family of Free Folk with an entire pack of direwolves at their heels, even though direwolves are not uncommon north of the Wall. House Stark of the Wolfswood is unique in this regard. And among them, Jon seems to be the most unique of all.
I used to think Bran was the most unique. I have a not-so-secret obsession with Brandon the Builder, and all Brandon Starks. But Bran isn't very special. Bran happened upon a half-Blackwood/half-Targaryen bastard who has the same gift as he. Blackwoods and Targaryens are certainly mysterious and magical, but not nearly so relevant in Westeros and the North as House Stark. The Long Night, Winter is Coming, the Last Hero and a Grey Wolf racing across an Ice White field, etc etc. There's simply too much symbolism around House Stark and the not-seen-in-8000-years Winds of Winter to suggest otherwise.
I'm not saying Blackwoods and Targaryens are unimportant. They are awesome, and fascinating in their own ways. But House Stark's connection to Winter and the Long Night is what this series is about, imo. Call me an old bear, but the rest is simply window dressing...
"Do you think your brother's war is more important than ours?" the old man barked. "It's not," Mormont told him. "Gods save us, boy, you're not blind and you're not stupid. When dead men come hunting in the night, do you think it matters who sits the Iron Throne?" "No." Jon had not thought of it that way.
Jon's pup seems the most special, I guess. His and Rickon's, although Ghost draws clear comparisons to the weirwoods and weirnet. I am not sure what the black and green eyes mean for Shaggydog and Rickon, but that is neither here nor there.
Jon obviously has a connection with the weirwoods and the old gods, in an obvious manner through Ghost. Ghost's coloring is a beaming light to draw our attention.
Several times when Jon is faced with a huge decision, it comes down to the weirwoods and Ghost. He associates Ghost with the old gods, with his fathers gods and he seems to make choices based on that. But Jon also seems to have a sort of intuition about the weirwoods.
Absolutely. Jon's gift is not subtle. What is, imo, is the origin of it.
"Let me give you some counsel, bastard," Lannister said. "Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you."
Jon could feel the power. Yes, because he has a connection to the weirwoods. But Jon is special and we know that. He has been gaining our attention from the very first chapter (okay, not counting the prologue) when he was our hero, and Bran and Robb's, when he talked Ned into letting them keep the direwolf pups. This bastard son of Eddard Stark was rushed to our attention, and has kept our attention since that time.
Indeed. And, even long before the white wolf, a silent presence loomed over Jon like a ghost.
One might say it clings to Jon Snow like a woman's blue flower perfume.
Catelyn softened then, to see his pain. Eddard Stark had married her in Brandon's place, as custom decreed, but the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them, as did the other, the shadow of the woman he would not name, the woman who had borne him his bastard son.
Two shadows lie between Ned and Catelyn, in the Lord of Winterfell's bed.
These two shadows also happen to have been given statues in the crypts, even though it was out of turn for Ned to do so.
I did not intend for this thread to become another parentage debate, and won't go down that road. But it would be bad form to not point out that Brandon+Lyanna=Jon is a very strong implication of the above quote.
Did Lyanna send that direwolf female to welp her pups in the direct path of the Stark party that day? Maybe she did. I can't say that it was not her. But I am not 100% that it was her. To be fair, I am not 100% convinced of any one idea in this story. It's too complex, full of important details and subtle ideas and misdirections to the point that I don't know the truth. I sometimes wonder if even GRRM himself is sure of it all. But I like the idea that it could have been Lyanna, as opposed to the other commonly accepted idea that it was Bloodraven that sent the pups. Either is possible and could be true. Or both of them if they are together as part of the collective.
I think GRRM is sure. His obfuscation is too careful and deliberate for him to not-know what secrets he is guarding.
And regarding your lack of certainty, in this, or any theory, that is to be commended. Certainty is for religion. Science and logic require doubt.
There are few things more powerful than a mind that is both critical and open.
Really, we know very little about Lyanna. We know that Ned loved her with all his heart, that Robert loved her more, we know of the idea of Rhaegar "kidnapping" her and "raping" her, but we have no proof of either, we know that she was "fond of flowers", we know that Robert killed Rhaegar in her name and has lived his whole life since the rebellion trying to replace the void she left in his heart, we know that Lyanna felt Robert would not remain faithful to her or any woman, we know that Lyanna had Ned make promises that he kept, in spite of the cost to himself, we know that Lyanna fiercely defended Howland Reed at Harrenhal, and we know that when she died, Ned blacked out and does not remember much of what happened before and after (it was obviously a painful thing for him). But what we actually know about Lyanna really is not that much.
I keep a word doc on all we know regarding Lyanna. I posted the list here before, but I can't find it now. I'll put it in a spoiler below. It includes only the novels and the world book, and does not yet contain information from SSMs.
6.wanted to come home and rest beside Brandon and Rickard
7.cried "Promise me" in a room that smelled of blood and roses
8.fever took her strength, made voice soft as a whisper
9.was fearful, but then the fear went away once Ned gave her his word, and she smiled
10.was able to clutch Ned's fingers tightly with her own before giving up her hold on life
11.had dead and black rose petals in her palm (not fresh nor blue)
12.her body was discovered by several people in the arms of a despondent Eddard Stark
13.her hand was removed from Eddard's by Howland Reed
14.was...fond of flowers
15.would have bound Eddard and Robert by blood as well as affection had she lived
16.would have joined Houses Stark and Baratheon - Direwolf and Stag
17.was insipid (according to Cersei)
18.even dead, was still loved by Robert
19.caused Cersei to fear being put aside for some new Lyanna
20.is believed to an authority "about the dragon's honor" by Robert
21.is said to have been avenged at the Trident
22.once pleaded like Sansa did at the Trident when Ned determined he would kill her wolf pup
23.had a touch of wolf blood, like her brother Brandon
24.might of carried a sword, if allowed by Rickard
25.looked like her niece, Arya
26.rumored to have looked like Margaery Tyrell
27.her brother Ned disagreed with the rumor she looked like Renly's painting of Margaery Tyrell
28.her brother Ned believed he knew her better than Robert did
29.had "iron" underneath "her beauty"
30.would have prevented Robert from entering the melee
31.was taken from Robert, leaving him with no wish to marry
32.believed Robert would never keep to one bed
33.was at Winterfell "on the night" long ago when Rickard promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End
34.had heard that Robert had gotten a child on some girl in the Vale
35.was not lied to by her brother Ned
36.was assured by her brother Ned that Robert's actions before their betrothal were of no matter
37.was assured by her brother Ned that Robert was a good man and true
38.was assured by her brother Ned that Robert would love her will all his heart
39.smilingly claimed that "Love is sweet"
40.added the caveat that love cannot change a man's nature
41.was given costly "promises" by Ned as she lay dying
42.had a bed of blood
43.screamed
44.called "Eddard!"
45.called again, "Lord Eddard"
46.was called Lya
47.is had by Rhaegar now (together in death), in Robert's opinion
48.name was evoked by Robert when consummating his marriage to Cersei
49.haunts Ned's dreams as a statue that whispers, "Promise me, Ned"
50.haunts Ned's dreams as a statue wearing a garland of pale blue roses
51.haunts Ned's dreams as a statue with eyes that weep blood
52.name was evoked by Robert on his deathbed, as he says he'll give her Eddard's love
53.lies in tomb beyond Rickard and Brandon, adjacent to tombs waiting for the Stark children where there are stubby candles, spiders, rats as big as dogs, and the dead walk
54.her father, Rickard, was "beheaded" by Mad King Aerys II, according to Bran
55.was not supposed to have a statue - as they are only for the kings and lords
56.received the queen of beauty's laurel in her lap from Rhaegar at the Tourney of HH, making all the smiles die
57.her qolab crown was of winter roses, blue as frost
58.her crown haunts Ned in the dungeons, he reached out to grasp it, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden, they claw at his skin sharp and cruel, and cause a slow trickle of blood to run down his fingers
59.whispered "Promise me, Ned," from her bed of blood
60.had loved the scent of winter roses
61.was loved by Ned so much, she was given a statue
62.was said to have a "fair" statue by Osha
63.was said to have been carried off and raped by Prince Rhaegar, by Bran
64.died, and was never gotten back by Robert
65.name was given to a ship that sailed for Dorne with King Robert's Hammer, Lionstar, Bold Wind, and Seaswift (which carried Princess Myrcella)
66.when reports of her reached Brandon Stark, he went to KL instead of continuing on his way to Riverrun like a gallant fool (according to Hoster Tully)
67.haunts Theon Greyjoy's dreams as a slim, sad girl, wearing a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore
68.stands beside Brandon, in front of Rickard, when haunting Theon's dreams
69.was believed to have been "loved and lost" by Robert (according to Davos Seaworth)
70.appears to rise from the dead with other dead Starks when shadows move in the crypts
71.rode horses "like a northman," same as her niece Arya
72.was crowned queen of love and beauty instead of Princess Elia, by the Prince of Dragonstone at the Tourney of Harrenhal
73.was stolen away from her betrothed, according to Daenerys
74.shares a name with an unruly Mormont girl who writes rude letters to kings
75.was the loved Lady of Prince Rhaegar, causing thousands of deaths, according to Barristan Selmy
76.was chosen queen of love and beauty by Rhaegar, causing otherwise avoidable war and woe, according to Barristan Selmy
77.was believed to have attracted Rhaegar's gaze due to the prince having an unimpressive wife, according to Kevan Lannister
78.had a wild beauty, like a bright burning torch that could never match the rising sun, according to Kevan Lannister
79.died, leaving Robert to marry the unbetrothed Cersei
80.received a garland of blue roses in her lap from the tip of Rhaegar's lance, according to Yandel
81.her qolab coronation was taken as a slight upon her honor by Brandon Stark, according to Yandel
82.her qolab coronation was seen as her due by Robert, until he brooded upon it, according to Yandel
83.was fallen upon and carried off by Rhaegar not ten leagues from Harrenhal, according to Yandel
84.her "abduction" brought about the ruin of House Targaryen, according to Yandel
85.her "abduction" was part of a series of actions that nearly ended the Stark line, according to Yandel
So we idealize her, make up stories about how she would have acted and why she might have done what she did, imagine how and why and when she died, if she had a child or not. Did love lead her down her path, or was it the wolf blood, or was it the weirnet? Lot's of good theories out there about her, but little actually in the text. And hope that someday GRRM will give us another book and a few more ideas that are fact and not fiction (yes, I know it's all fiction, but you get my meaning). I know you think that Lyanna might be a darker character than we would like to believe and I to think this. She is many shades of grey, just like all the other characters that GRRM has given us.
I agree people idealize her. And this theory might be seen that way for good reason. LOL
But I really don't. I see Lyanna as a willful and wild teenager. In other words, a pretty common type of teenager. While she might have loved, we only have canonical support for her love of family.
In terms of her dark side, and shades of grey, this too is demonstrated by the text. Aside from the fact that Arya is the only other Stark said to have had the wolf blood, and all the comparisons between Arya (who is more than a little dark, at times) and Lyanna, we are told quite explicitly that Lyanna was not the vapid, home-wrecking beauty queen that so many readers seem to think she was. (That RLJ lens does funny things to people):
"You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert," Ned told him. "You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath. She would have told you that you have no business in the melee."
In terms of her cause of death, the text is quite clear: it was her wolf blood that led her to an early grave.
I am hoping to comment on some of the response posts, but this post feels like it is getting very long, so I will break it up.
voice , I have also read this theory post on Westeros and the comments over there, and am planning to drop a few of my thoughts on that board as well. Thanks again for a though provoking idea!
Thanks for the thoughtful reply and arguments! An unchallenged theory is as useful as a writer who doesn't write!
I'll get to the others asap. Didn't want to break this first response into two parts, but real life work kept me from this far more interesting conversation.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Re Lyanna, I don't think her gift was ever awakened. I think she was sensitive to the old powers, and growing up next to a weirwood, was likely influenced by them to a large degree. But this is likely true for most, or even all, Starks. According to BR, Bran's blood makes him a greenseer.
Bran's gift's development was quickened by his coma/injuries. CROCKPOT ALERT It could be that she had the gift but it was under/undeveloped and it quickened on her deathbed giving her the ability of a second life. One worthy of a queen.
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
It's easy to think of the Lannisters as Andals, and even GRRM himself seems to have made this mistake before, but according to the text, the Lannisters are fellow First Men. Like the wolves and Bran the Builder, the lions are descended from Lann the Clever – two Age of Heroes archetypes.
It's easy to think of the Lannisters as Andals, and even GRRM himself seems to have made this mistake before, but according to the text, the Lannisters are fellow First Men.
indeed, Lann the Clever was a FM; an Andal FM:
WIF - The Westerlands That was when the golden-haired rogue called Lann the Clever appeared from out of the east. Some say he was an Andal adventurer from across the narrow sea, though this was millennia before the coming of the Andals to Westeros.
If you care to look at the basic Andal traits, the Lannisters are their closest match...but i admit that you need to look at the background history in Essos for that.
You both point out valid information according to text we have. Yes, TWOIAF does claim that Lann the Clever was a First Man during the age of hero's, but it also claims some think he might have been an Andal, which you have already pointed out. Why is there this hinted at discrepancy? Maybe GRRM didn't make a mistake, maybe this is a hint? Though what outcome it could have, I don't have a clue.
That was when the golden-haired rogue called Lann the Clever appeared from out of the east. Some say he was an Andal adventurer from across the narrow sea, though this was millennia before the coming of the Andals to Westeros. Regardless of his origins, the tales agree that somehow Lann the Clever winkled the Casterlys out of their Rock and took it for his own. TWOIAF
I don't know what he was or wasn't, or even if he was at all, but in legend Lann did manage to steal The Rock from the Casterly's. And why is there some question that Lann was an Andal? Where there is smoke, there is fire, me thinks!
I think of this quote from The World book (semi-canon, at best, I know) about the names of the First Men
Even their house names mark them out, for the First Men bore names that were short and blunt and to the point; names like Stark, Wull, Umber, and Stout all stem from the days when the Andals had no influence on the North. TWOIAF
This might sound a bit nit picky, but Lannister certainly does not sound like a First Men name, as described above.
Rather than attempting to throw back the invaders, these sage kings arranged marriages for the more powerful of the Andal war chiefs with the daughters of the great houses of the west. TWOIAF-The Westerlands
Certainly, we know that the First Men of southron Westeros intermarried frequently with the Andals (as the North did not) and probably carry more blood of the Andal invaders than they carry of the First Men. At this point of the story, House Lannister is far more Andal then First Man, in blood and tradition.
Why is it that most readers can only see ONE FM migration from Essos to Westeros when they can imagine DOZENS of parentage for Jon?
As you point out, if we consider that there could be more than one migration of the First Men, then we should also consider that there may have been an earlier expedition of Andal's that may have arrived as explorers more than invaders before the main Andal push. And our shifty, golden-haired Lann might have been one of those very Andal's. I just can't help but think that it is hinted at several times for a reason. I don't think this Andal vs First Man situation is mentioned of any other house in Westeros than Lannister. It might not matter to the story but GRRM gives us clues for a reason.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.