Lyanna Stark: A Gift from Old Gods

I haven't seen it specifically mentioned but considering the wars between the Cotf/FM vs the Andals was more like a Holy War I think it's reasonable to assume there's still some bitterness.



Their gods are Cats gods too.

Narnia! L0L Mojo

    - GRRM  (source)

Interesting theory! I took the time to read the comments over here as well as over at the W before I commented on anything. It is always interesting to see how different the conversation is here versus there.

You draw a strong connection between Lya of A Song for Lya and Lyanna Stark. The name's are a pretty obvious attention getter, I agree. The first time I read A Song for Lya, I was struck by her name and Robb's. GRRM does seem to like to use some names several times, just like it seems like he reuses themes. The idea of the collective or a hive mind does show up in a couple of his stories that I have read. I would not be surprised if he is using that theme again with the weirwoods. I would use it, it's a pretty cool theme!

Besides the thought of a bio-organism riding around on my head, eating at me like a tumor from the outside, which isn't really like the weirwoods, the idea that Lya went into the collective without the usual time period, the "joining" because of her gift, and her ability because of this gift to contact Robb and try to entice him to join her does have some parallel's to the weirnet of this story. The weirnet seems to try to contact people, as Lya contacted Robb, even if all they hear are leaves blowing. Some of our characters even hear familiar voices from the weirwoods (Arya seems to hear Ned). I do think the collective/hive mind does exist in ASOIAF.

However, I struggle with what seems like a bit of a jump based on the similarity to Lya and Lyanna's names to connecting these two characters. Just because Lya had a gift, that cannot translate so easily to me that Lyanna had a similar type of gift. She might have, she might not have. Just because Lyanna felt like Robert would always be a cheater, does not mean she learned that from the weirnet, she might have just had better instincts about this than Ned did. Ned seems to want to always see the best in Robert, and not the reality. I don't see much similarity in the Robb characters in the separate stories, besides the obvious, which is their names.

That said, I can't say with any authority that the connection that you are drawing isn't exactly what GRRM intended. So, Lyanna of ASOIAF might have been a greenseer. But once she is dead, is her gift any more powerful than that of the rest of the collective? It's all one big thing, right? Individual knowledge joined together. How much influence would you have once you were dead? Enough influence to send a pregnant direwolf into a direct path with destiny? Maybe, I guess. Or not.




I am curious to see if you think there is a different between wargs and skinchangers? If warg's apply only to "slipping into" wolf's (or canines, I guess), and skin changers apply to all animals and beings, then maybe the odds you are describing are not so rare for the Starks. Maybe warging is more common than skinchanging which is more common that greensight? Certainly, Bran and Arya seem to be able to slip into animals that are not wolfves, but so far Jon only demonstrates wolf dreams with Ghost. Hard to say about Robb or Rickon, although I would guess they do "slip" into their wolves, and Sansa is even harder to say, since Lady died very early in our story.

So if there is a distinction between wargs and skinchangers, then 2 of 6 are skinchangers (that we know off) while 6/6 are wargs (since GRRM told us so). 33% is still however far above Bloodraven's 1:1000. But I wonder if we can trust what Bloodraven tells Bran, as I must assume he has some need for Bran that we have not yet seen.

I know that does not really have much to do with the meat of your theory about Lyanna and the weirnet, but I do wonder if there is a distinction between wargs and skinchangers.



I don't think Ned uses the term "wolf blood" to describe the ability to warg. I get that Neddard doesn't seem to believe in magic, so he would not believe in wargs, but I still don't think that is how he uses the term wolf blood. He seems to use it to describe a wildness, a temper, the lack of holding back in actions or emotions. I don't think that being wolfblooded means the ability to be a warg.



I think all Starks are born with the ability to warg, but in the last 200 years, they did not have direwolves to connect with. I think that is what you are saying here also? I would agree that Good Queen Alysanne's "gift" of stealing land from the Starks to give to the Watch, and closing the Nightfort hurt the Starks and the Night's Watch equally. A poisoned gift, whether it was accidental or intended.

So, I do think that the direwolf pup's being given to the Stark children is what awakened a gift that they all carried, but had been lying dormant. I would say that the ability was within Ned's generation just as strongly as with Ned's children's generation, the difference being the direwolf pups. I think the story hints at Brandon and Lyanna's ability with horses, so maybe they made a connection there, or they were just very good riders, as it seems most people from the north are.



Again, I don't question your numbers, but I do question Bloodraven's numbers. If his math is even close to correct, one in one million have the gift of greensight. He has it, and he tell's Bran he has it, but based on population of Westeros, how many other people could have this gift. And if he has it and Bran has it, what is similar about them to bless them with this gift? I have seen estimations of the population of Westeros being anywhere between 40 and 75 million, so if that is correct, then at the beginning of our story, we should have 40 to 75 greenseer's in Westeros. Where the heck are they?

Okay, I guess 40-75 of anything doesn't seem like much when compared to millions, but if 40-75 people share this gift at any one time, why don't more people know about them? I am not questioning you as much as just the general idea. Or maybe it's GRRM's numbers that are wonky! Like his timeline!

However, if there are that many, then Lyanna definitely could have been one. But so could a lot of other people. Howland Reed, maybe? But what is in these peoples genetic makeup that allows them this gift? Does it only lie in First Men houses? Or lie in the blood of people who could have bred at some point with the Children of the Forest? There is the story about the Warg King of Sea Dragon point, that the Starks killed (all the males of that line) and then took his daughters as prizes (wives/salt wives). This story is super interesting to me. Did the Stark's have the ability to be wargs before this or not? Did they have the ability but had lost it, and that is why they needed the Warg King's daughters blood, to replenish the line? Is this why Rickard married his cousin Lyarra, to help strengthen that gift again? Did Rickard know something? Did Lyarra? What happened to Lyarra? (okay, sorry, I got distracted from the original idea!)



For the sake of your argument, I will say that Lyanna was a greenseer. I wonder what awakened her gift? It seems like Bran's gift being woken might have been related to his fall/possible death/possible rebirth situation, so what awakened Lyanna's gift? Or maybe it does not need to be awakened at all? Possibly, Bran's situation is different because the process needed to be hurried?

However, if there are 40-75 people in Westeros that have this gift, then I am inclined to think that Rickon also has it. That kid is not only a bit feral, but his direworlf has green eyes, and the CoF see red and green eyes as special. That would possibly indicate that Jon could have this gift as well, since Ghost has red eyes. Could all the Stark children of this generation also have the ability to be greenseer's? I must say I have often wondered about Sansa, and some of the dreams she has, dreams that almost seem prophetic. The more the merrier and makes a bit more sense with the 40-75 possibilities. 

But back to Lyanna ...




Again, for the sake of your theory, we will say that Lyanna is Jon's mother, which I am pretty certain is the truth, but who knows what GRRM will actually throw at us. He can change a lot of our thoughts in one simple paragraph on tWoW if he so chooses.

Okay, so if Lyanna sent the wolf pups, did she make one of them albino? How does one influence that? Is that why Brynden Rivers was albino, because some long ago greenseer influenced his genes? It seems a stretch.



I do think that Lyanna does reside in the weirnet. We have this description of her in Ned's dreams as eyes weeping blood. The weirwood trees eyes look to be weeping blood, as the sap run from the carvings.



This is the tree in the village that the wights attack Sam and Gilly and incest baby Craster at. This tree more than any other reminds me of Lyanna and her tears of blood. I think she was watching Sam, trying to help him. Sam has strange dreams that night, and I would guess this is related to the weirwood. Maybe Lyanna sent Sam that dream, just as you speculate that Lyanna is sending Jon his crypt dreams? Sam and Gilly also received help from the ravens, who attacked the wights, so maybe there was more than one force trying to help them at that time, unless Lyanna sent the ravens. I think of Bloodraven of course, when I think of ravens, so I always attributed this to him. When Sam kills the Other with the dragonglass dagger, he hears a voice talking to him, telling him what to do; he thinks it is Jon's voice, but maybe it was Lyanna whispering to him, but I don't think a weirwood was near? We know Jon is alive so I don't see how he could be in the wiernet at this time. Maybe Sam just heard what he needed to hear to act?

So, I buy what you are selling me about Lyanna being part of the collective. But I think that Ned is, too.



How do people end up in the weirnet? Ned didn't die near a weirwood and as it seems like his bones are still missing and he has not been laid to rest under a weirwood or in the crypts, but I think his spirit resides in the collective. Maybe every living soul does end up a part of the weirnet when it dies, no matter where or how it dies (or if a greeshka consumes it)? Any way, Ned was obviously still alive when the direwolf pups showed up, so he could not have sent them, so possibly Lyanna did. I can't say for sure, but I do think that a being associated with the weirnet sent the pups. Certainly all the the pups are special.

Jon's pup seems the most special, I guess. His and Rickon's, although Ghost draws clear comparisons to the weirwoods and weirnet. I am not sure what the black and green eyes mean for Shaggydog and Rickon, but that is neither here nor there.



Jon obviously has a connection with the weirwoods and the old gods, in an obvious manner through Ghost. Ghost's coloring is a beaming light to draw our attention.

Several times when Jon is faced with a huge decision, it comes down to the weirwoods and Ghost. He associates Ghost with the old gods, with his fathers gods and he seems to make choices based on that. But Jon also seems to have a sort of intuition about the weirwoods.



Jon could feel the power. Yes, because he has a connection to the weirwoods. But Jon is special and we know that. He has been gaining our attention from the very first chapter (okay, not counting the prologue) when he was our hero, and Bran and Robb's, when he talked Ned into letting them keep the direwolf pups. This bastard son of Eddard Stark was rushed to our attention, and has kept our attention since that time.

Did Lyanna send that direwolf female to welp her pups in the direct path of the Stark party that day? Maybe she did. I can't say that it was not her. But I am not 100% that it was her. To be fair, I am not 100% convinced of any one idea in this story. It's too complex, full of important details and subtle ideas and misdirections to the point that I don't know the truth. I sometimes wonder if even GRRM himself is sure of it all. But I like the idea that it could have been Lyanna, as opposed to the other commonly accepted idea that it was Bloodraven that sent the pups. Either is possible and could be true. Or both of them if they are together as part of the collective.

Really, we know very little about Lyanna. We know that Ned loved her with all his heart, that Robert loved her more, we know of the idea of Rhaegar "kidnapping" her and "raping" her, but we have no proof of either, we know that she was "fond of flowers", we know that Robert killed Rhaegar in her name and has lived his whole life since the rebellion trying to replace the void she left in his heart, we know that Lyanna felt Robert would not remain faithful to her or any woman, we know that Lyanna had Ned make promises that he kept, in spite of the cost to himself, we know that Lyanna fiercely defended Howland Reed at Harrenhal, and we know that when she died, Ned blacked out and does not remember much of what happened before and after (it was obviously a painful thing for him). But what we actually know about Lyanna really is not that much.

So we idealize her, make up stories about how she would have acted and why she might have done what she did, imagine how and why and when she died, if she had a child or not. Did love lead her down her path, or was it the wolf blood, or was it the weirnet? Lot's of good theories out there about her, but little actually in the text. And hope that someday GRRM will give us another book and a few more ideas that are fact and not fiction (yes, I know it's all fiction, but you get my meaning). I know you think that Lyanna might be a darker character than we would like to believe and I to think this. She is many shades of grey, just like all the other characters that GRRM has given us.

I am hoping to comment on some of the response posts, but this post feels like it is getting very long, so I will break it up.

voice , I have also read this theory post on Westeros and the comments over there, and am planning to drop a few of my thoughts on that board as well. Thanks again for a though provoking idea!

Here is the other half (hopefully)


I have before wondered if what it takes for the world to fix itself is the death of the Starks, along with the destruction of Winterfell. That would certainly be bittersweet to me! Beyond sad as they are the people we relate to as the primary source of POV's in the story. Sad!


Thank you for pointing out a hint of Neddard's superstitious and spiritual side! Although, I do think Ned believes in ghosts, because he has been haunted by Lyanna's ghost for years. Pure speculation on my part!


I think that Sept needs to go! Maybe it burnt to the ground when Ramsay torched the place? I will need to look into that. However, I wonder if the old gods really care about a sept of the seven or not?


This is interesting. Are you implying because an Other died, then Robb needed to die? But Ned died too, between those deaths, so how does that work? Maybe an Other death we don't know about? The idea is intriguing!


Seriously, what is up with that guy? He has to matter or GRRM would not be so darn vague about him. It's as odd as no mention of Lyarra Stark in the text. Weirdness!


I agree that we are missing something hugely important regarding this idea. What children is Ned talking about? Robert must have known, because he doesn't ask to be reminded. But there is much to what triggered the rebellion that we have yet to be told by our author. I highly doubt it was because of Rhaegar and Lyanna or anything that supposedly snowballed from that incident, or even Jon Arryn calling his banners rather than kill Ned and Robert. Something else, for sure!


Maybe that is why her statue does not have a sword. Because Ned wants her spirit to roam, to visit him in his dreams? I know that is pretty crack pot but Ned himself thinks about the statues without swords having spirits free to roam. He doesn't seem to like the idea of the old Kings of Winter roaming, but maybe he does not mind Lyanna so much!




I am not a purveyor of RLJ, but I don't think that a vengeful, angry Jon would be just the fault of the Targaryen blood, if he has some. I mean, look at Arya, she is almost surviving completely on the idea of vengeance, and she has no dragon blood. The Starks have a bit of hardness themselves. After all, they did conqueror the north. Ned even tells us in his first POV that the Kings of Winter "had vengeful spirits" and "had been men as hard as the land they ruled". This doesn't sound like super nice guys. Certainly not people you want to cross! I think these Starks were just as scary as the dragon lords ever were.

This was after Jon found out he was to be a steward and not a ranger. His anger was so awful he could not care if the whole world was damned! I am reminded of how often Ned feels rage in this story, or people associate Ned with rage. The Stark's have rage! To be fair, I think Viserys and Daenerys have plenty of rage, too!

I do wonder about Jon's reaction after his assassination (or attempt). What might his rage cause him to do?


Ahhh, yes, I remember that discussion. And I agree, then and now. I think it possible that Ned hoped/planned to lay beside Lyanna in death as he was unable to do in life.


I don't know if it was important for Brandon to see, but I do think that Aerys chose fire by execution for his icy Warden of the North, a descendant of the Kings of Winter for a reason. Maybe it had something to do with this prophecy that seems to drive half of the Targaryens mad? Maybe Aerys knew those dead kings could return? Hmm, that sounds pretty crazy when I actually type it out, but I think the idea of burning them could apply to the Starks as well as the Others.


Yes, either because he was told to do it, or he was hedging his bets and hoping for some kind of life after death for Lyanna.


Of course, there is the idea that the swords are not there to keep vengeful spirits at contained, but that the statues, the swords and the direwolves are waiting, waiting for a time when an army of the dead Stark kings needs to rise and fight. The swords are iron, which is a material that Old Nan tells us that the Others hate.


I guess it depends of if you think the this Stark army is to stand beside the Others or fight them back? I honestly don't know which it might be. Can't wait to find out!

**The second bolded area is just me associating the Others, not with the Starks, but the Boltons. Hunting maids through a forest is a very Ramsay-like thing to do, and I would not put it past Roose. (Sorry, I know that has nothing to do with this post, I just always find it super interesting and it involves that quote)


I love tinfoil and cracked pots. I do wonder however if Rickard was a wight, would people have not noticed? Blue eyes like stars, black hands. I guess gloves could cover hands, but not the eyes. And didn't Rickard challenge Aerys? That would take a voice and it seems like wights don't speak. Unless Stark wights are different? That could change things up! Like the show version of Coldhands.


Are you saying that you think Eddard wanted the Others to come???


Are you saying that the Starks came from the south, but in a different way than the First Men. I mean, the First Men migrated to Westeros, and then warred with the CoF. Before the First Men came, I thought just CoF and giants lived in Westeros? Do you see something in the text that makes you think that the Stark's did not come with this wave of First Men?
I guess I always felt this line by the Great Jon as showing us a difference between the Andals of the south and the First Men of the North.
****
Okay, I haven't posted in weeks and weeks and now I feel like I am starving and need to gorge myself. Sorry for the length of this but there are so many good comments from people!

It's going to take me quite a while to comment on all of these great arguments, stdaga , but I will. Thank you for the in-depth responses!


It is. LOL

I was surprised the W thread veered off into nobility and incest. I really didn't intend for that to happen. 



Lya=Lyanna isn't really my argument. I only brought her up because in A Song for Lya we see a very absolute and complete influence that consumes every single member of the population. In And Seven Times Never Kill Man!, we find another strong influence that, like weirwoods and greeshka, bonds with members of the resident population. 

While ASfL gives us 100% efficiency, ASTNKM is somewhat less. And in ASoIaF, we have a comparable force that yields influence that is substantially less than even that found in ASTNKM.

Except, the current generation of House Stark seems to be more like the resident population found in ASfL, the Shkeen. Like the Shkeen, every single individual from this generation from Winterfell is sensitive to this influence. 

Thus they are at the far end of the spectrum by GRRM-standards. On the other end, we have Westeros/Planetos. Even if we take Bloodraven's ratios as exaggerations, it is clear that weirwood influences in Westeros are not nearly as strong as such powers are in ASTNKM or ASfL.

This makes for a very stark contrast, and seems to be the defining feature of House Stark. 



Well, the direwolves might in fact be bio-organisms that ride around inside Stark heads. 

But yes, I did not intend to imply that Lyanna Stark=Lya in ASfL. They are two different characters. But, I do think that GRRM used the name intentionally, and I view "Lyanna" as an archetype. 

GRRM's Lyannas tend to be willful, find early graves, and haunt men's dreams. In this way, I view ASfL's "Robb" as being a bit closer to ASoIaF's "Ned," rather than its "Robb." ASoIaF's "Brandon" (wolf-blooded brother of Ned) might be another good parallel. 

If the original Brandon Stark (the "Builder") was the Last Hero and thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, then in some ways, this doomed love trope is something GRRM just can't seem to escape. The Night's King's starry-eyed queen took his soul. In this way, she was very much like a succubus or lilin. This is probably a good time to mention Lilith, the original "Night's Queen" 





For a self-proclaimed feminist, GRRM certainly seems fond of the female-soul-suck motif. The story of the Night's King is but one in ASoIaF. Melisandre's soul-sucking sexual habits, and Khal Drogo's catatonia, are two more recent examples. 

Notably, in Mercy (the WoW sample chapter), we see Arya use her sexuality to lure, trick, and take a man's life. 



There is a distinction, but they are not exactly mutually exclusive, imo. 

All wargs are skinchangers, but not all skinchangers are wargs. 

    A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

If wolves and women wed for life, I can only imagine what a marriage to a wolf-woman would entail. One might think that such a bride would be rather possessive. Mayhaps they even haunt their partners after death. 



Certainly. That was a bit of speculation and word play. Ned doesn't clarify what the wolf blood is, exactly. But it does lead people to early graves, and Lya in ASfL was led to an early grave. One might also say that Bloodraven was led to an early grave, even if he is late in 'the dying' part of it. 

But do you see how the wildness, temper, lack of holding back in actions/emotions all sound a lot like our Stark wargs?

Rickon, Bran, Arya, Robb... only Sansa, whose wolf was sacrificed, is able to check those impulses. 



Yup. It all comes down to this: 200 years ago, the ancient symbiotic relationship of direwolves and Starks came to an end. 

Rather than see the current generation of Starks as an oddity, I think they are a return to wolf-blooded normalcy. 

We must then wonder at what has allowed this power to return, and sneak passed GQA's barricade. I think Lyanna is the answer:

    Dany IV, ACOK

    Bran I, AGOT

    Eddard I, AGOT




Regarding the ratios, I can only agree. BR's numbers either seem far too low (compared to the number of sculptures in WF's crypts with direwolves), or not low enough (compared to the 1 greenseer the house currently bears). I think the big wall of ice might have something to do with the reason why we only have 2 human greenseers in Westeros, rather than 40-75. 

I can't put much faith in population estimates until GRRM himself states something on the matter, but I must put faith in the text. Bloodraven's ratios were written by GRRM to let us know that skinchangers are rare, and that greenseers are a thousand times more rare than skinchangers. We might quibble over how exact those numbers are, but they are all we have at the moment. 

Regarding the origin of the gift, I think it is a product of living in proximity to weirwoods. Just as they awaken the gifts in the children of the forest, so too have they awakened the gifts in the First Men. That, combined with the adoption of the Old Gods, and adoption of a godswood barrow as a crypt, and any possible green ceremonies (Final Unions) would amplify that influence, I'm thinking. 

I would expect the influence to eventually begin to manifest itself in Andal and Rhoynar populations as well, but they are recent additions. And, in the case of the Andals, they have actively shunned weirwoods in favor of their newer gods. 

I have to cut this post short, but I'll continue it when I get back from lunch and a few errands. 

You are probably right that the Starks gained some "green" gift in the blood with intermarriage to House Reed. They also did this with the Warg King of Sea Dragon point, taking his daughters (I assume as brides or at least mistresses). It seems like when the Starks defeated a House, they then intermarried into it. Smart politically! But if these houses all had special genes, then the Starks would have absorbed those genes and the gifts that went along with them! And that is smart magically!


I have just recently watched a video that draws parallel's between the Authurian legend and Excalibur and there was a hint of more video's to come, but I can't remember the channel. It was a youtube video, and it was interesting. The idea of a special sword wielded by a man named Arthur might be all GRRM gives us, however. Maybe if he gets us a new book sometime, we can see!