Ice dragon beats fire in children's book. Not looking good for Dany's babies' chances against Craster's boys.
Not looking good for the other 2.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
PS : I'm actually the brown haired young man with the hammer.
greywaterwatcher has the full episode on his computer but I don't have a thumb drive to share it
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Most show watchers don't know who Rhaegar is at all. They've seen Arthur Dayne, and remember him. He was with baby Jon, after all.
I disagree on this. Go back and watch the pilot episode. They tell us the story of Lyanna and Rhaegar in the first minutes of the entire series. In fact it's one of the first things we learn about the world of Game of Thrones. It's that important.
Geek Report: A news aggregator for geeks and nerds
The Times asked the actor (Kit Harington) about the major revelation that came at the end of season 6 — that Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark are his parents.
“Mmmm … Well … It wasn’t revealed, actually,” Harington said. “What we know is that Lyanna Stark is my mother. While it’s heavily implied, we don’t know who my father is.”
This was in July 2017. After the graphic
Interesting! Especially given that in Ep 6, someone (Jorah, I think) tells Jon he doesn't look like Ned. Which of course goes against everything in the books, but still.... he then adds something like "you must come after your mother", but we know she was a Stark like Ned and had the same "look". So who does he look like? Rhaegar, with his silver hair and purple eyes? Or the dark-haired, dark-eyed Arthur Dayne?
Maybe in the books Jon will be the son of Arthur Dayne, but most show viewers are not going to know who Arthur Dayne is. I just feel that if D&D want Jon to be the son of Dayne that they would be more prevalent in the story right now.
This is a fair point, but I feel like most show watchers don't know who Rhaegar is either. Neither of these two characters has been well developed by the show. This is largely b/c they avoid flashbacks; and it's hard to get to know a character who is only ever talked about by others. They could have given us the tourney in Lannisport, where Aerys rejects Tywin's marriage suggestion, and/or the one at Harrenhall. This would have familiarized the viewer with the most important historical characters and their relationship to each other. Instead, most viewers will be confused/indifferent when they learn who Jon's dad is, regardless of who it ends up being.
I LOVED the Hound and Tormund discussing Brienne!!! But also Jon and Jorah being so civil with each other and talking about Jeor and Longclaw; Jon and Beric wondering why they were still alive (or rather, alive again), Gendry confronting Thoros and Beric about selling him to Melisandre. I really enjoyed almost all of it.
Everything in Winterfell, however, was terrible. It was like watching Mean Girls, exactly like you said. Searching through each other's rooms, reading each other's mail, throwing accusations around. Why is Arya being SO hostile? She threatened Sansa's life for a letter she wrote under duress when she was 13! WTF? This is uncalled for. Maybe it's her who has to be reminded by Sansa: when the snows come and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives. I did appreciate Sansa standing up to Arya and refusing to be intimidated, and refusing to play Arya's game. I wonder how LF will react when he learns that Arya trained with the Faceless Men? He knows what they are, even if Sansa does not. If they're smart, they'll think of a pretext to send her away. Maybe to King's Landing, to be the Stark representative. They would just have to make her think it was her own idea.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
I'm conflicted on this. I agree that the overall effect of this episode was to beef up the white walkers as a threat, by showing us that they can kill a full-grown dragon with relative ease. And then raise it for their side! This makes it insanely dangerous to use dragons against them. Also, just as an aside: the NK did not seem the least bit surprised to see the dragons. In fact, it seemed as though he had been waiting for them. As soon as they arrived, the other ww calmly handed him the spear, and he turned right around, aimed, and killed the dragon. One could almost say it looked like an ambush, designed to grab a dragon for Team Ice.
That being said, what I really REALLY didn't like was that apparently, if the NK is killed, all the others will drop dead as well. So the War for the Dawn is no longer about having to defeat the army of the dead; they just have to find a way to kill the NK. Lame...
I don't know.... if it were me, I would evacuate Westeros immediately. I can't imagine Dany wanting to risk her other dragons going against an ice dragon. Then again, if they really only have to kill the NK, and he is on the dragon... the two fire dragons could attack from both sides at once. One dragon + rider would surely die, but the other could burn NK and his ice dragon. That, or huge dragonglass or VS scorpion bolts... or bolts coated in wildfire...
While I would love for this to end in something other than a great battle, it seems the show is heading straight in that direction.
ALL the dragons ended up dead in the children's book. And that one was a real Ice Dragon, a different species - not a resurrected fire dragon. He was much bigger than the fire dragons, and actually made of ice (melted when he died, leaving behind a cold pool). But yes, he took out three fire dragons before crash landing and melting... On the other hand, they really only have to take out the rider, not necessarily the dragon. And that should technically be possible even with normal size, dragonglass-tipped arrows.
Last Edit: Aug 16, 2017 19:37:48 GMT by Maester Sam
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
Interesting! Especially given that in Ep 6, someone (Jorah, I think) tells Jon he doesn't look like Ned. Which of course goes against everything in the books, but still.... he then adds something like "you must come after your mother", but we know she was a Stark like Ned and had the same "look". So who does he look like? Rhaegar, with his silver hair and purple eyes? Or the dark-haired, dark-eyed Arthur Dayne?
Well--they did have the Lyanna actress have very, very similar coloring to Jon.
Though no curls.
Am now imagining either Rhaegar or Arthur with ringlets. No--Lacks gravitas.
The Game of Thrones crew still tried their level best to keep the news under wraps. The words “Jon Snow” were never used on set. Instead everyone called the character “LC” as in “Lord Commander.”
Used them even after the entire cast knew he was back.
And they were REALLY mad when the secret got out via leaked photo--at both leakers and fans who read/look at spoilers (like me--and you):
Despite their best efforts to keep the twist on lock down, a set photo of Snow alive, well, and in costume did leak out last September. “I just want to point out that guy’s an a–hole,” Benioff recently said of the photographer who infiltrated the set. “You’re not cool for doing that, you’re an a–hole.” He was even more frustrated by the Game of Thrones fans who wanted to read all about it. “It’s crazy enough to be the person crawling through the bushes in Northern Ireland with a telescopic lens taking pictures—there are crazy people out there. But the idea that people want to go to sites and find out those spoilers … it’s like if there was a website called Last Pages of Great Books, would you read that?”
I'm not a big fan of the idea that they leaked the scripts themselves clear back last year (in August, I think)
But given how badly leaks have happened, could they have "protected" themselves by not putting the correct names in the outline they gave to HBO?
Yeah--I could see that. Or not--no idea what they are doing right now.
I LOVED the Hound and Tormund discussing Brienne!!! But also Jon and Jorah being so civil with each other and talking about Jeor and Longclaw; Jon and Beric wondering why they were still alive (or rather, alive again), Gendry confronting Thoros and Beric about selling him to Melisandre. I really enjoyed almost all of it.
Why is Arya being SO hostile? She threatened Sansa's life for a letter she wrote under duress when she was 13! WTF? This is uncalled for. Maybe it's her who has to be reminded by Sansa: when the snows come and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives.
I wonder how LF will react when he learns that Arya trained with the Faceless Men? He knows what they are, even if Sansa does not. If they're smart, they'll think of a pretext to send her away. Maybe to King's Landing, to be the Stark representative. They would just have to make her think it was her own idea.
Not sure he's living long enough to figure that out.
Though that would be an interesting twist.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Also, just as an aside: the NK did not seem the least bit surprised to see the dragons. In fact, it seemed as though he had been waiting for them. As soon as they arrived, the other ww calmly handed him the spear, and he turned right around, aimed, and killed the dragon. One could almost say it looked like an ambush, designed to grab a dragon for Team Ice.
Well, that would fit with the idea that he's a greenseer.. Which I buy in the books. And even could work with him as skin changer.
That being said, what I really REALLY didn't like was that apparently, if the NK is killed, all the others will drop dead as well. So the War for the Dawn is no longer about having to defeat the army of the dead; they just have to find a way to kill the NK. Lame...
Yup. They are really simplifying things. The idea that a
They are nukes, just like the Walkers. No matter how cute they are. The devastation Jaime and Bronn and Tyrion were looking at after Dany torched everything--looked as much of a wasteland as the cold in the north.
It will make some fans upset. But I do think that's where we are going.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Pictures, too. Though a bit late, given the leaks.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
This is a fair point, but I feel like most show watchers don't know who Rhaegar is either. Neither of these two characters has been well developed by the show. This is largely b/c they avoid flashbacks; and it's hard to get to know a character who is only ever talked about by others. They could have given us the tourney in Lannisport, where Aerys rejects Tywin's marriage suggestion, and/or the one at Harrenhall. This would have familiarized the viewer with the most important historical characters and their relationship to each other. Instead, most viewers will be confused/indifferent when they learn who Jon's dad is, regardless of who it ends up being.
True, but go back and watch the pilot episode. The first thing they do when King Baratheon does is go to the crypt and talk about Rhaegar and Lyanna. They didn't waste any time telling the backstory. First it was up at the Wall, then it was Jon finding the Direwolves, and then Rhaegar and Lyanna. He's more important than Dayne, and probably one of the most important parts of the story in as far as they told it almost immediately.
Geek Report: A news aggregator for geeks and nerds
Most show watchers don't know who Rhaegar is at all. They've seen Arthur Dayne, and remember him. He was with baby Jon, after all.
I disagree on this. Go back and watch the pilot episode. They tell us the story of Lyanna and Rhaegar in the first minutes of the entire series. In fact it's one of the first things we learn about the world of Game of Thrones. It's that important.
No I agree it's important, and that Rhaegar is important. But, the relative importance of these two men has been flipped.
You said that Watchers would know Rhaegar better than Arthur, when it's quite the other way around. They saw Arthur in a high drama scene last year, while they've only heard Rhaegar's name in passing comments.
In fact, Unsullied saw far more Arthur, in a far more dramatic light, than we Readers did.
And on the reverse side of this, Rhaegar casts a much larger shadow in the books than he does in the show.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I disagree on this. Go back and watch the pilot episode. They tell us the story of Lyanna and Rhaegar in the first minutes of the entire series. In fact it's one of the first things we learn about the world of Game of Thrones. It's that important.
No I agree it's important, and that Rhaegar is important. But, the relative importance of these two men has been flipped.
You said that Watchers would know Rhaegar better than Arthur, when it's quite the other way around. They saw Arthur in a high drama scene last year, while they've only heard Rhaegar's name in passing comments.
In fact, Unsullied saw far more Arthur, in a far more dramatic light, than we Readers did.
And on the reverse side of this, Rhaegar casts a much larger shadow in the books than he does in the show.
Depends. There's more written about Rhaegar on online articles, and every website seems to have something on this show. I see articles on CNN Money, Forbes, and other oddball websites that you wouldn't think would be discussing the mysteries of Westeros, so I take that into account. I assume even casual fans read a few articles when they see them online.
Geek Report: A news aggregator for geeks and nerds
It definitely could! Dead ravens are great spies, I'm sure, just like living ones. We know the NK can interact with Bran inside his visions, so he must have somewhat related abilities. And at least for now, he seems much more powerful than Bran. He probably saw them the moment they left Eastwatch, and was tracking their movements the whole time.
Also strange how the blizzard cleared up in time for the battle. Isn't this when it should be most intense- when ALL the WW's and wights are all around them? Unless, again, the NK knew the dragons were coming and wanted a clear shot at them...
Maybe--though I'm thinking it may end up being a version Jon's
Hardhome fight with a Walker
and
Ned's fight with Arthur at the tower.
It could
start out like a big battle and end up a duel between the Night King and the Day King.
Maybe.
It's certainly possible, but still slightly cliche, IMO. Very Lord of the Rings; a big battle as a distraction while the heroes sneak in to kill the evil lord. Not loving it.
They are nukes, just like the Walkers. No matter how cute they are. The devastation Jaime and Bronn and Tyrion were looking at after Dany torched everything--looked as much of a wasteland as the cold in the north.
It will make some fans upset. But I do think that's where we are going.
True, but go back and watch the pilot episode. The first thing they do when King Baratheon does is go to the crypt and talk about Rhaegar and Lyanna. They didn't waste any time telling the backstory. First it was up at the Wall, then it was Jon finding the Direwolves, and then Rhaegar and Lyanna. He's more important than Dayne, and probably one of the most important parts of the story in as far as they told it almost immediately.
True- Rhaegar comes up repeatedly throughout the show. Oberyn brings him up too in season 4, and LF in the crypts in season 5. Barristan tells Dany about him in season 6. He is definitely an important character - but, IMO, he is important mainly b/c he "kidnapped" Lyanna and helped start a war that ended his family. It is in this context that he comes up, except when Barristan talks about how he loved to sing on the street corner rather than fight in tourneys. So that's not super flattering for Jon, to be the son of this relative douchebag. (He is portrayed much more positively in the books, IMO).
On the other hand, we got to see Arthur Dayne in action. We were told (by BR) and shown what a great fighter he was. We then learned from Ramsay that Jon is apparently known as an exceptionally good swordsman as well. And we've now had Jon repeating his line about the wars to come. Not to mention the title Sword of the Morning would be incredibly fitting for one apparently chosen to help end the Long Night.
So I'm still on the fence on this one. I would love for it to be Arthur Dayne, but honestly don't think it will make a difference in the show. Unless Dawn is the only weapon that can stop the NK. If we learn anything along those lines, or if VS & dragonglass fail to kill him, then obviously we'll need a Dayne to wield Dawn.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
No I agree it's important, and that Rhaegar is important. But, the relative importance of these two men has been flipped.
You said that Watchers would know Rhaegar better than Arthur, when it's quite the other way around. They saw Arthur in a high drama scene last year, while they've only heard Rhaegar's name in passing comments.
In fact, Unsullied saw far more Arthur, in a far more dramatic light, than we Readers did.
And on the reverse side of this, Rhaegar casts a much larger shadow in the books than he does in the show.
Depends. There's more written about Rhaegar on online articles, and every website seems to have something on this show. I see articles on CNN Money, Forbes, and other oddball websites that you wouldn't think would be discussing the mysteries of Westeros, so I take that into account. I assume even casual fans read a few articles when they see them online.
Yup. Rhaegar has been clickbait for a good decade.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."