All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Yes, Voice. TMI! WHATEVER! did you even see that sword in flames?????? And how he schools Jon into the fact that death always wins but we have to fight it anyways! If Sandor tells him to shut his hole I'm going to eat every fucking chicken in the room.
Speaking of swords: a fragment of the episode leaked on Youtube.
All about the Longclaw and how one must be worthy to carry an ancestral sword.
Hound, Gendry, Beric, and Thoros are standing around in a clump. Clip starts mid-“issues”
Hound (to Gendry): Your lips are moving and you’re complaining about something. That’s whinging. This one’s (indicating Beric) been killed 6 times—you don’t hear him bitching about it.
Hound walks away from Gendry. Gendry gives up whatever was bugging him takes a drink from Thoros.
Thoros: Good lad.
Camera moves away to Jon and Jorah walking together.
Jon: The first time I went north of the Wall was with your father.
Jorah: He was a good man. He deserved a better son. Were you with him at the end?
Jon: I was a prisoner of the wildlings. But we avenged him. I want you to know that. Every mutineer found justice.
Jorah: Can’t think of a worse way for him to go. The Night’s Watch was his life. He would have died to protect every one of those men. And they butchered him.
Jon: I hate that he died that way. My father was the most honorable man I ever met. He was good. All the way through. And he died on the executioner’s block.
Jorah: Your father wanted to execute me, you know.
Jon: I heard.
Jorah: He was in the right, of course. Didn’t make me hate him any less.
Jon: I’m glad he didn’t catch you.
Jorah: Me, too.
They stop and face each other. Jon takes off Longclaw as he speaks.
Jon: Your father gave me this sword. Changed the pommel from a bear to a wolf. But it’s still Longclaw.
Jon hands sword to Jorah. Pause.
Jon: Lord Commander Mormont thought you’d never come back to Westeros. But you are back. And it’s been in your family for centuries. It’s not right for me to have it.
Jorah: He gave it to you.
Jon: I’m not his son.
Jorah pulls Longclaw partly out of the sheath and looks at it.
Jorah: I brought shame into my house.
End of the clip. But it really looks like Jorah is refusing his ancestral sword because blood isn’t enough. He must also be worthy.
LMAO! Sandor is hilarious! His lines are generally a goldmine of snark and wiseass-ness.
I normally don't read spoilers actually, this is the first one I do because it didn't seem a huge one by the topic you listed (sword-worthyness). I am curious now what will be the result of that scene.
“Don’t fight in the North, or the South. Fight every battle everywhere. Always, in your mind.”
Most show watchers don't know who Rhaegar is at all. They've seen Arthur Dayne, and remember him. He was with baby Jon, after all.
I disagree on this. Go back and watch the pilot episode. They tell us the story of Lyanna and Rhaegar in the first minutes of the entire series. In fact it's one of the first things we learn about the world of Game of Thrones. It's that important.
Yes, it's like the super famous baseball player from the 80's that always gets namedropped when it comes to "back in the old days"! And it's even worse that nobody has actually seen him on screen, because it's even more suspect that they keep mentioning him.
I remember the ep when Barristan Selmy was murdered by Benioff and Weiss writing, in the most inglorious and unbefitting scene in the back alleys of Meereen. He was waxing poetic on this amazing prince who happened to be the brother of the Dragon queen just scenes before. Some show only peeps on Mon at lunch were musing what kind of awesome HE must have been. They remembered he's the one who foiled Bobby B's plans. That was like 5 seasons later. Don't know how many times he was mentioned in between but yes, he got mentioned every season.
“Don’t fight in the North, or the South. Fight every battle everywhere. Always, in your mind.”
the way the wights charge onto the frozen lake and fall through the ice somehow seemed familiar. I would bet that D&D took this scene from the battle of Stannis vs Freys that is about to take place in the books. I remember being disappointed that we never got to see this maneuver in the show; now it appears they used a variation of it in this other context b/c it was just too cool to leave out completely.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
Hound, Gendry, Beric, and Thoros are standing around in a clump. Clip starts mid-“issues”
Hound (to Gendry): Your lips are moving and you’re complaining about something. That’s whinging. This one’s (indicating Beric) been killed 6 times—you don’t hear him bitching about it.
Hound walks away from Gendry. Gendry gives up whatever was bugging him takes a drink from Thoros.
Thoros: Good lad.
Camera moves away to Jon and Jorah walking together.
Jon: The first time I went north of the Wall was with your father.
Jorah: He was a good man. He deserved a better son. Were you with him at the end?
Jon: I was a prisoner of the wildlings. But we avenged him. I want you to know that. Every mutineer found justice.
Jorah: Can’t think of a worse way for him to go. The Night’s Watch was his life. He would have died to protect every one of those men. And they butchered him.
Jon: I hate that he died that way. My father was the most honorable man I ever met. He was good. All the way through. And he died on the executioner’s block.
Jorah: Your father wanted to execute me, you know.
Jon: I heard.
Jorah: He was in the right, of course. Didn’t make me hate him any less.
Jon: I’m glad he didn’t catch you.
Jorah: Me, too.
They stop and face each other. Jon takes off Longclaw as he speaks.
Jon: Your father gave me this sword. Changed the pommel from a bear to a wolf. But it’s still Longclaw.
Jon hands sword to Jorah. Pause.
Jon: Lord Commander Mormont thought you’d never come back to Westeros. But you are back. And it’s been in your family for centuries. It’s not right for me to have it.
Jorah: He gave it to you.
Jon: I’m not his son.
Jorah pulls Longclaw partly out of the sheath and looks at it.
Jorah: I brought shame into my house.
End of the clip. But it really looks like Jorah is refusing his ancestral sword because blood isn’t enough. He must also be worthy.
LMAO! Sandor is hilarious! His lines are generally a goldmine of snark and wiseass-ness.
I normally don't read spoilers actually, this is the first one I do because it didn't seem a huge one by the topic you listed (sword-worthyness). I am curious now what will be the result of that scene.
Oh my God!!! They will not possibly give Longclaw/Mormonts the Dawn/Dayne plot???!!! Real book readers would never forgive this. Since they had Dawn already in the show and "the famous Arthur Dayne". But it looks like they are doing it. And Jorah being the new "Sword of the Morning" Oh my goodness ..I have no words for this. This makes me angry.
It certainly seems that HBO will go the fan service route and make Rhaegar the daddy. However, and take this with a grain of salt since I am no film director, I thought the Tower of Joy presented a clear visual cue that indicated Arthur as the father. At the very least, it's the exact visual cue I would use in such context: When Ned finds Lyanna, he lays Dawn at the foot of her bed, and we are given an oddly long, lingering shot of Arthur Dayne's "sword" at such an angle that it appears to be pointing directly towards Lyanna's womb. I definitely don't buy the argument that pure show-watchers will somehow be familiar with Rhaegar, yet won't have any idea who Arthur Dayne is. Arthur Dayne has been mentioned far more often in the show, not to mention his being the only one of the two to actually appear on screen.
I don't think they are doing fan service. I think that D&D are limited on what they can do with the creative content on GoT. I think they have an outline of where the story is going and they have to stick with it. I think that is why we have 13 episodes instead of 30 episodes. We already know that GRRM doesn't want anyone else finishing the novels for him in the event he dies, so it is a good assumption that he wouldn't give D&D full creative control over the story now that the HBO series has overtaken the books. That's why I don't think it's fan service. We know D&D met with GRRM over how the series ended, and I think GRRM gave them an outline that they had to stick with. Jon is a Targaryian is where the books are going...
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BTW, I really appreciate all the use of the spoiler tags!
I don’t know if you use YouTube, but just an FYI….. There are some short clips floating around of Episode 6. If you watch any ASOIAF/GOT channels they might pop up on your homepage or in your recommended. The clips are pretty spoilerish on major plot points for the episode.
...and I'm sorry to say that it's the worst episode of the series so far, by far. Yes, worse than that horrible UUU episode. The last of my emotional investment towards the series evaporated in a laughter over the most ridiculous change of fabric I've seen on screen. Wow. The Frozen soundtrack would have fitted better as theme over the suspense this episode mustered.
The best thing the show once had going for it was the ability to make the viewer believe anyone could die if they fukked up. When the NK launched the Ice spear against the moving target with no riders way further away it was full on Disney-plot-armour-mode. Terrible. To me it was that bad and not only does the story not track or make sense, but the previous quality of production just could not keep it together anymore.
Also: Why not bring a raven on the trip up north? makes more sense than to have Hicham El Guerrouj appear out of nowhere.
This episode was tough for me to rate, but I have to agree with caliban.
I thought it was one of the worst examples of the series thus far. Far worse than anything we've seen this season imo. And yet, it contained one epic addition to the story.
As Maester Sam would surely agree, one does not simply dismiss
The Ice Dragon, aside from being a great stand alone story with a fascinating cognate in Bitterblooms, has been looming over A Song of Ice and Fire for a very long time:
A Clash of Kings - Bran V "Osha," Bran asked as they crossed the yard. "Do you know the way north? To the Wall and . . . and even past?" "The way's easy. Look for the Ice Dragon, and chase the blue star in the rider's eye." She backed through a door and started up the winding steps.
A Storm of Swords - Bran II When they lost their way, as happened once or twice, they need only wait for a clear cold night when the clouds did not intrude, and look up in the sky for the Ice Dragon. The blue star in the dragon's eye pointed the way north, as Osha told him once. Thinking of Osha made Bran wonder where she was. He pictured her safe in White Harbor with Rickon and Shaggydog, eating eels and fish and hot crab pie with fat Lord Manderly. Or maybe they were warming themselves at the Last Hearth before the Greatjon's fires. But Bran's life had turned into endless chilly days on Hodor's back, riding his basket up and down the slopes of mountains.
A Storm of Swords - Jon III The last night fell black and moonless, but for once the sky was clear. "I am going up the hill to look for Ghost," he told the Thenns at the cave mouth, and they grunted and let him pass. So many stars, he thought as he trudged up the slope through pines and firs and ash. Maester Luwin had taught him his stars as a boy in Winterfell; he had learned the names of the twelve houses of heaven and the rulers of each; he could find the seven wanderers sacred to the Faith; he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning. All those he shared with Ygritte, but not some of the others. We look up at the same stars, and see such different things. The King's Crown was the Cradle, to hear her tell it; the Stallion was the Horned Lord; the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief. And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. "Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night."
A Storm of Swords - Davos VI At the north window, he leaned against the sill for a breath of the cold night air, hoping to catch a glimpse of Mad Prendos raising sail, but the sea seemed black and empty as far as the eye could see. Is she gone already? He could only pray that she was, and the boy with her. A half moon was sliding in and out amongst thin high clouds, and Davos could see familiar stars. There was the Galley, sailing west; there the Crone's Lantern, four bright stars that enclosed a golden haze. The clouds hid most of the Ice Dragon, all but the bright blue eye that marked due north. The sky is full of smugglers' stars. They were old friends, those stars; Davos hoped that meant good luck.
A Storm of Swords - Jon VIII Jon nodded weakly. The door swung open. Pyp led them in, followed by Clydas and the lantern. It was all Jon could do to keep up with Maester Aemon. The ice pressed close around them, and he could feel the cold seeping into his bones, the weight of the Wall above his head. It felt like walking down the gullet of an ice dragon. The tunnel took a twist, and then another. Pyp unlocked a second iron gate. They walked farther, turned again, and saw light ahead, faint and pale through the ice. That's bad, Jon knew at once. That's very bad.
A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII The road beneath the Wall was as dark and cold as the belly of an ice dragon and as twisty as a serpent. Dolorous Edd led them through with a torch in hand. Mully had the keys for the three gates, where bars of black iron as thick as a man's arm closed off the passage. Spearmen at each gate knuckled their foreheads at Jon Snow but stared openly at Val and her garron.
A Dance with Dragons - Jon X The snowfall was light today, a thin scattering of flakes dancing in the air, but the wind was blowing from the east along the Wall, cold as the breath of the ice dragon in the tales Old Nan used to tell. Even Melisandre's fire was shivering; the flames huddled down in the ditch, crackling softly as the red priestess sang. Only Ghost seemed not to feel the chill.
And then we had the semicanonical world book:
The World of Ice and Fire - Beyond the Free Cities: The Shivering Sea Of all the queer and fabulous denizens of the Shivering Sea, however, the greatest are the ice dragons. These colossal beasts, many times larger than the dragons of Valyria, are said to be made of living ice, with eyes of pale blue crystal and vast translucent wings through which the moon and stars can be glimpsed as they wheel across the sky. Whereas common dragons (if any dragon can truly be said to be common) breathe flame, ice dragons supposedly breathe cold, a chill so terrible that it can freeze a man solid in half a heartbeat. Sailors from half a hundred nations have glimpsed these great beasts over the centuries, so mayhaps there is some truth behind the tales. Archmaester Margate has suggested that many legends of the north—freezing mists, ice ships, Cannibal Bay, and the like—can be explained as distorted reports of ice-dragon activity. Though an amusing notion, and not without a certain elegance, this remains the purest conjecture. As ice dragons supposedly melt when slain, no actual proof of their existence has ever been found. Ice dragons notwithstanding, the true kings of these northern waters are the whales. Half a dozen types of these great beasts make their homes in the Shivering Sea, amongst them grey whales, white whales, humpbacks, savage spotted whales with their hunting packs (which many call the wolves of the wild sea), and the mighty leviathans, the oldest and largest of all the living creatures of the earth.
But beyond that, I really didn't care for this episode. I had high hopes for this director, and aside from the feat above, this episode was awful.
Why the fuck were Tormund and the Hound talking about dicks? Why the fuck did Jon and Gendry become instant bff's? And, as caliban pointed out, why the fuck would any group survive being overrun with that many wights, and why the fuck would NK miss Drogon?
I was left waiting for Pippin to faint. But no canon here...
D&D had just watched Peter Jackson's version and erred on the side of closeups in slow-motion amidst battle, and of course, the coming of the eagles. Dany was even waiting by Jon's bed to tickle his tummy when he woke up.
LMAO! Sandor is hilarious! His lines are generally a goldmine of snark and wiseass-ness.
I normally don't read spoilers actually, this is the first one I do because it didn't seem a huge one by the topic you listed (sword-worthyness). I am curious now what will be the result of that scene.
Oh my God!!! They will not possibly give Longclaw/Mormonts the Dawn/Dayne plot???!!! Real book readers would never forgive this. Since they had Dawn already in the show and "the famous Arthur Dayne". But it looks like they are doing it. And Jorah being the new "Sword of the Morning" Oh my goodness ..I have no words for this. This makes me angry.
Lol you got all that from the small transcript SlyWren posted in spoilertags? Holy Seven! I just read two dudes bonding, one dude returning the ancestral sword to the house it has always belonged to, and the other dude being humbled and hesitant because well... his dad was not so proud of what he did in the past.
However, Longclaw is a Valyrian steel sword so it is kind of special. Not Dawn special, clearly, as it is not made of meteor and not wielded by Ser Arthur Dayne Sword of the Morning, but still... pretty special.
I like the reliable, humble and hard-working Longclaw (one of the few Valyrian steel swords who is getting used quite a LOT unlike the rest of them with the possible exception of Oathbreaker) and I always suspected it of being the actual Lightbringer for example and I am a real book reader
“Don’t fight in the North, or the South. Fight every battle everywhere. Always, in your mind.”
I normally don't read spoilers actually, this is the first one I do because it didn't seem a huge one by the topic you listed (sword-worthyness). I am curious now what will be the result of that scene.
Yes--it is an interesting point--in light of lots of things.
As I've noted many times, I have Dawn-blindness.
But Martin's made it very, very clear in SSM's and the books how unique Dawn is via worthiness. It's showing up.
Oh my God!!! They will not possibly give Longclaw/Mormonts the Dawn/Dayne plot???!!! Real book readers would never forgive this. Since they had Dawn already in the show and "the famous Arthur Dayne". But it looks like they are doing it. And Jorah being the new "Sword of the Morning" Oh my goodness ..I have no words for this. This makes me angry.
I'll be genuinely stunned if that's the meaning of the scene--they will have waited money and time on making Dawn look at all distinctive and centering the camera on it.
No--either Dawn's coming back as Dawn somehow, or they will drop it off a narrative cliff--which is also a weird way to spend their cash.
But if they do what you've said--I'm happy to riot.
Hitchcock Bird-Style:
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
It certainly seems that HBO will go the fan service route and make Rhaegar the daddy. However, and take this with a grain of salt since I am no film director, I thought the Tower of Joy presented a clear visual cue that indicated Arthur as the father. At the very least, it's the exact visual cue I would use in such context: When Ned finds Lyanna, he lays Dawn at the foot of her bed, and we are given an oddly long, lingering shot of Arthur Dayne's "sword" at such an angle that it appears to be pointing directly towards Lyanna's womb.
Yup
That film cue was clear and deliberate--I've been in and on enough sets to tell you that.
Same with Dawn being in the center of the shot as Ned goes through the door into Lyanna's room.
Plus, the camera-man for the scene where we see Baelish's dagger in one os Sam and Gilly's books--the cameraman said in an interview that he was specifically told to linger on that page. So, we know that they use this common technique.
And the Freudian sword pointing--yes.
NO idea if they are going to take all this anywhere or just drop it off of a cliff. But they put in the effort. One has to wonder why.
definitely don't buy the argument that pure show-watchers will somehow be familiar with Rhaegar, yet won't have any idea who Arthur Dayne is. Arthur Dayne has been mentioned far more often in the show, not to mention his being the only one of the two to actually appear on screen.
Not mentioned more, no. But shown more and given emotional impact? Absolutely. He's fairly meme-able: apparently fans like him. A lot.
And no, I didn't make any of these memes. Just googled.
Bottom line: character made an impact for show fans.
Will have to see what they decide to do with that impact.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I thought it was one of the worst examples of the series thus far. Far worse than anything we've seen this season imo. And yet, it contained one epic addition to the story.
Dany's badass dragons are not only not invincible or effective at wiping out the Walkers (unlike their ability to take out troops), but those dragons are a potential liability.
Long as the Night King has his magic exploding javelins, he can not only kill, but turn the dragons against people.
I really hope this drives home the idea that dragons, cool as they are, aren't heroes.
This "war" has to be won by people, not nukes.
Song of Amergin unity, not an arms race.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.