It honestly just seems sloppy from top to bottom. I get the writing has been questionable, but for gosh sake, isn't anyone on the set noticing this crap? Don't the actor's in the scenes think "whoa, this isn't logical", etc! It just frustrates me because it is SOOOOOO sloppy! And it gives the impression that they no longer care about the product!
See this is a misconception, of sorts and is why I've been banging on about editing. We don't know what was filmed. They may have filmed a scene where exactly the lines of dialogue you suggested were said. Remember, movies & TV shows aren't shot in chronological order, the scene where Sam applies the cure may have been shot AFTER the scene where Jorah is cured, it all depends on the schedule. This is the fault of the editor (possibly the director not shooting enough but that's an unknown). It's often said you tell a story on film three times; once on the page, once on the set and once in the editing room. The editor has botched their job in this instance. Simply cut the line about Jorah having to leave the next day and separate the scenes by an episode. That is all on the editor. The nonsense north of the wall is a different issue. They botched that at all three stages of telling the story.
when they were north of the Wall surrounded by Wights they could have simple said something to the effect of "We only brought 4 days worth of food and almost out."
Simple solutions for simple problems and look at that, neither one of us runs a TV show. Well I don't, if you're secretly Scott Buck or something then can I just say fuck you for Iron Fist, the final season of Dexter & Inhumans
I didn't really care for any of the Netflix shows to be honest. I did like Jon Bernthal as Punisher though. Can't wait to watch that show!
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See this is a misconception, of sorts and is why I've been banging on about editing. We don't know what was filmed. They may have filmed a scene where exactly the lines of dialogue you suggested were said. Remember, movies & TV shows aren't shot in chronological order, the scene where Sam applies the cure may have been shot AFTER the scene where Jorah is cured, it all depends on the schedule. This is the fault of the editor (possibly the director not shooting enough but that's an unknown). It's often said you tell a story on film three times; once on the page, once on the set and once in the editing room. The editor has botched their job in this instance. Simply cut the line about Jorah having to leave the next day and separate the scenes by an episode. That is all on the editor. The nonsense north of the wall is a different issue. They botched that at all three stages of telling the story.
No doubt some of these things could be fixed in several ways, but the editor must be getting approval from someone higher on the chain than they are. And some of this stuff is the script. I get what you are saying, but it doesn't matter ultimately if it's step 1, 2, or 3 or all of the above that is botched, sloppy is still sloppy!
D&D are executive producer's. It's their job to catch these things, fix these things, and produce a decent finished project that makes sense. Of course, this is from me, a person who has no first hand knowledge of the detailed process involved in TV/Film production, but still ... I can spot what doesn't work. However, if the masses think that Season 7 is the best season to date, then there is obviously nothing that needs fixing from D&D's perspective.
Hey voice , in honor of wolfmaid7 and the funniest comment I have seen in a while, can we get a limp penis emoji? I would use that right now. I suppose that is not appropriate but it can't hurt to ask. Apologies, it's my vacation and I opened the wine early today!
D&D are executive producer's. It's their job to catch these things, fix these things, and produce a decent finished project that makes sense.
You are completely correct, I shouldn't be throwing the poor editor under the bus but I guess I was just trying to say that many of season 7's issues stem from editing not (necessarily) from the writing. I get the feeling that the gratuitous amount of CG & VFX this season is one of the causes of this as that will have made post an absolute nightmare. Principal photography wrapped at the end of Feb/beginning of March so they had about 3 months to do a Marvel movie amount of CGI, a feature film will typically take between 6 months and a year to do post production. What it seems like to me is that during post they weren't able to go back and do pick ups, or at the very least, not a lot of pick ups (pick ups are additional shooting to "pick up" things that you missed in principal then notice during editing). Again, the CG is the likely cause of this as they would have had to edit all the non process shots while the CGI was being rendered then edit the CGI stuff and I guess some shit got lost in the shuffle and at the end of the day they had a hard date to hit for the premiere and were simply unable to fix some stuff that didn't quite work.
...it made it look like she was quoting herself. I fixed that post to show that she was quoting the guest.
I tried to edit that as I was replying, but didn't check if it came through after posting. A bit cock sure of my self, haha! I just thought is was a hiccup and didn't allert anyone then. To my defence it was in the middle of the night for me, at a time when I usually sleep. Thanks for fixing!
I think the Catelyn lies to herself in her own POV, or at least alters her memories or her perception of events. We see this with Sansa, too. They are very similar and that is why I have a hard time trusting in Sansa's character. Time will tell.
She really does! I will get to that Catelyn-thing in time, and at the very least ask a few pointed questions based on a few oddities in her thoughts.
If he is Brandon's, he is much older than we have been lead to believe. But the timeline on all of the children born around this time is vague. Jon, Dany, Robb, Sam, (f)Aegon, Meera, Gendry are all around the same age but who knows who comes first. Robb is the most specific, and it is still vague in the greater timeline. Meera is certainly interesting, as she is listed as the same age as Jon, Sam, Gendry, Robb, but if Howland was away fighting in the Rebellion for a year, where does her conception and birth lie, and who the hell is Jyana Reed? Jyana is VERY similar to Lyanna but it screams Red Herring to me. It's all so darn confusing.
Bran refers to Jon and Robb being "of an age" which indicates they are about the same age, or at least thought to be. When Ned meets Gendry at Tobho Mott's shop, he notes that Gendry is "about Robb's age", which indicates to me that Ned see's somewhat of a difference in the ages of Jon and Robb. Part of the tangled web of mystery we have been served up with no conclusion in site!
Yeah, I think it's possible for Jon to be older than what's official, but it still is a limit to how much Ned could get away with I think. That passage from Ned made me think too, and is a big basis for my speculation. Still, I try to keep it in the realistic difference so to speak. For example, I think it would be difficult to make him a year younger than he really is. I haven't speculated on Meeras birth and parentage much, in general I don't have a problem with her being consieved before Ned raised his banners to fight the rebellion. In that case she is somewhat older than Robb. Something can be up of course, I just don't see that much to put my finger on at the moment. As for the timeline, I try not to pick at it too much as Martin himself suggests. Unless these SSMs are lies, he didn't write them with a tight timeline.
Assuming that the Rhaegar and Lyanna marriage is book cannon, I certainly hope that GRRM chooses to explain WHY it was necessary to keep it much a big secret. Here is a thought. She could have left a note saying she was willingly running off with Rhaegar. Nope, instead they keep it a secret and perhaps hundreds of thousands of people die, including almost her entire family.
Of course, it is possible that the "story" was changed after the rebel's won the war, to make their cause look more just. Rhaegar needed to look like the bad guy; the Targaryens needed to be at fault! If it appeared like a stupid girl falling in love with a handsome prince caused this whole mess, then it probably weakens the cause of the Usurper's claim. I don't actually know if it does, as they still won the war by conquest, but it might have been an argument used.
I question that the rallying cry for rebellion was Lyannas kidnapping. It could be part of the propaganda at the time of course, but not the main thing. That came later, and is convenient for the singers to sing about. I am no history expert, but if he used our world as a basis for this, blood was often used in some way or another to justify usurping the crown. Robert did use his Targ blood after it was done. I do hope Martin can come up with a better explanation if he goes this way!
If it is true, then it makes Rhaegar and Lyanna both look very bad, and it should. They made poor choices that affected millions of people, and if the only reason is for "love" I might have a stroke!
Yeah, I have a problem with this. If Rhaegar had won the rebellion (and dethroned his father, or sire as he prefered to call him) him saying "No, I didn't kidnap her, we eloped and got married" wouldn't go down easily and in no way give him a good start as a king.
I have seen arguments made that indicate that Lyanna did "leave a note" or in some way try to tell people that she eloped with Rhaegar by her own choice, but that message was lost or kept hidden. I don't know if I buy any of that. Usually I see Littlefinger getting the blame for this, but everything can't be his fault, right?
Huh, haven't seen the note thing before. But I haven't read that many RLJ-threads as most just I have say the same thing. Well, everything was Bloodraven's fault in his time as Hand, and everything was Tyrion's fault when he was Hand. Thus everything could be Littlefinger's fault! I hear ya! It's possible to lay this at LF as well, but I have my doubts. If he did have a finger in this too, it was just one small detail in a lot of things going on. There were many players, and several of them was huge!
No doubt, if RLJ is the case in the books, GRRM will do a much better job of explaining it than the show has done!
The only way I can see RLJ is if the fell in love after she fell off the map, when they both were nowhere to be found. He has to do a way better job than the show and most fans imo.
Could be the case about Robert, but he is already written in many shades of grey, and I don't see him moving toward the darker or lighter spectrum. I think it's our characters that are introduced to us as dark (like Jaime) who will move toward the light, and characters that are introduced to us as light (like the Neddard) who will move toward the dark.
So, if any of this kidnapping/eloping stuff pans out, maybe it was Ned that Lyanna notified, and therefore more of the responsibility/blame of the previous war falls into his shoulders, as well as this current war. I think Ned is bound to fall a bit from the pedestal that he has been placed on. I like a darker shade of Ned, myself!
I'd like a darker Neddard too, but I don't think he got a note. It's possible Benjen knew, if they hid at Winterfell, but I don't really se Ned being the culprit in hiding Rhaegar and Lyanna.
Principal photography wrapped at the end of Feb/beginning of March so they had about 3 months to do a Marvel movie amount of CGI, a feature film will typically take between 6 months and a year to do post production. What it seems like to me is that during post they weren't able to go back and do pick ups, or at the very least, not a lot of pick ups
Editing could be the cause, you make good points! Still, it shows poor time management imo, and that falls on D&D no?
Editing could be the cause, you make good points! Still, it shows poor time management imo, and that falls on D&D no?
Absolutely. If you can find an interview the director of Battle of the Bastards gave then you'll see that D&D are not good showrunners. I'm still stunned that HBO gave them so much money and didn't insist on a more experienced producer. I'm just trying to illustrate that poor writing (and there is plenty of that) is just one of many failings that led us to where we are. Yes, as showrunners the buck ultimately stops with D&D but I'm reticent to completely shit all over them because they've produced a show that essentially makes 5-7 feature films a year in about half the time it usually takes to make one !!! A certain amount of credit needs to be given that they even got the show to air. Sorry, I can't help myself, I have a natural urge to play D&Devil's advocate
Yes, as showrunners the buck ultimately stops with D&D but I'm reticent to completely shit all over them because they've produced a show that essentially makes 5-7 feature films a year in about half the time it usually takes to make one !!!
We must remember to give them credit were it's due! It's easy to forget that if the disapointment is too great, and that is the risk of every huge show or film. I still haven't seen the last Hobbit film, as I was too disapointed with the first two. Maybe when it gets really really cheap I'll get it.
Sorry, I can't help myself, I have a natural urge to play D&Devil's advocate
Haha, I know the feeling! I have no idea how many times I've jumped to defend something I don't really like or even care about! A tendency I've managed to curb somewhat over the years.
If you can find an interview the director of Battle of the Bastards gave then you'll see that D&D are not good showrunners. I'm still stunned that HBO gave them so much money and didn't insist on a more experienced producer.
Oh, forgot this part! I've read that interview. At least they concented to a change... As for not insisting on at least one with more experience, it makes one wonder! Still, in the end it probably payed off considering the following and that most seem saticfied.
As for the timeline, I try not to pick at it too much as Martin himself suggests. Unless these SSMs are lies, he didn't write them with a tight timeline.
I think GRRM is really bad with the timeline, and he tries to leave it vague on purpose, but we as readers, with time on our hands and questions in our hearts, try to peace together a puzzle that might never be meant to fit together in a smooth and concise manner. Frustrating for us, and probably for GRRM as well!
I question that the rallying cry for rebellion was Lyannas kidnapping. It could be part of the propaganda at the time of course, but not the main thing. That came later, and is convenient for the singers to sing about.
It the books, I don't think people blame the kidnapping on causing the war, although I suppose there is a trickle down effect. Still, people don't even seem to claim the execution of Rickard and Brandon Stark as the starting point, or even Aerys demand of Ned and Roberts heads. We are explicitly told that Robert's Rebellion started when Jon Arryn raised his banners in revolt!
But the show is trying to make it less complicated for the audience, I guess, and that is why we get "Robert's Rebellion was based on a lie" implying that the lie of the kidnapping vs elopement of Rhaegar and Lyanna is the cause of the war. Which was a part of the puzzle, but not the direct cause.
I agree, I think that the story of Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna was postwar propaganda. I just don't think the kidnapping part is the only lie, I question that Lyanna really ever spent anytime with Rhaegar after the "crowning" at Harrenhal. Of course, this is highly unpopular idea with a large part of the fandome! And that's okay. We all think what we think and are entitled to see it however we want!
Huh, haven't seen the note thing before. But I haven't read that many RLJ-threads as most just I have say the same thing.
I certainly have not had time to read them all. There are lot's of pro and against arguments presented in those threads. There is a lot of repeated arguments, over and over again, like 170+ threads now, but I have to admire the people who unwaveringly believe and defend it. And there is honestly a certain type of beauty in that much discussion that says the same thing over and over again!
I'd like a darker Neddard too, but I don't think he got a note. It's possible Benjen knew, if they hid at Winterfell, but I don't really se Ned being the culprit in hiding Rhaegar and Lyanna.
I doubt Ned (or Benjen) had anything to do with hiding Rhaegar and Lyanna, but then I also don't think they were together. I do think Ned could have known more about Lyanna's whereabouts when she was "missing" than we have been told. I could be completely wrong, however!
Last Edit: Sept 4, 2017 17:58:28 GMT by stdaga: clarification
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I think GRRM is really bad with the timeline, and he tries to leave it vague on purpose, but we as readers, with time on our hands and questions in our hearts, try to peace together a puzzle that might never be meant to fit together in a smooth and concise manner. Frustrating for us, and probably for GRRM as well!
I guess I haven't been at it long enough to start down that road yet, as long as it's not glaringly impossible I'm ok with it.
It the books, I don't think people blame the kidnapping on causing the war, although I suppose there is a trickle down effect. Still, people don't even seem to claim the execution of Rickard and Brandon Stark as the starting point, or even Aerys demand of Ned and Roberts heads. We are explicitly told that Robert's Rebellion started when Jon Arryn raised his banners in revolt!
But the show is trying to make it less complicated for the audience, I guess, and that is why we get "Robert's Rebellion was based on a lie" implying that the lie of the kidnapping vs elopement of Rhaegar and Lyanna is the cause of the war. Which was a part of the puzzle, but not the direct cause.
I agree, I think that the story of Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna was postwar propaganda. I just don't think the kidnapping part is the lie, I question that Lyanna really ever spent anytime with Rhaegar after the "crowning" at Harrenhal. Of course, this is highly unpopular idea with a large part of the fandome! And that's okay. We all think what we think and are entitled to see it however we want!
True! Many (book)discussions focus on her it seems, so it's easy to get slightly off the cannon path. If she spent any time with Rhaegar is dependent on his movements, in my mind. I'm quite sure she was in the hands of Arthur for some time, so that leaves the door open when it comes to the Silver Prince.
I certainly have not had time to read them all. There are lot's of pro and against arguments presented in those threads. There is a lot of repeated arguments, over and over again, like 170+ threads now, but I have to admire the people who unwaveringly believe and defend it. And there is honestly a certain type of beauty in that much discussion that says the same thing over and over again!
I looked at a few in spring, but soon noticed the repeating pattern and started skimming. As I was looking for information more than discussion, most ended up as "irrelevant" so to speak. I was really glad when I found the alphabet section here, where all alternatives were looked at. As for people who truly believe... Not sure how I think about it. On one side it reminds me of religion, on another like a democratic vote has been had over this. But that might be my natural tendency to question the current paradigme.
I doubt Ned (or Benjen) had anything to do with hiding Rhaegar and Lyanna, but then I also don't think they were together. I do think Ned could have known more about Lyanna's whereabouts when she was "missing" than we have been told. I could be completely wrong, however!
I have no firm beliefs of their movements, together or apart, at this time. If Lyanna was held as a hostage, that is one way Ned could know. Or he might question the whole kidnapping story from the start. I have no (firm) idea really!
I certainly have not had time to read them all. There are lot's of pro and against arguments presented in those threads. There is a lot of repeated arguments, over and over again, like 170+ threads now
I wanted to clarify my own absurd exaggeration and report there are currently only 164 R+L=J threads to catch up on, if anyone is so inclined.
As for people who truly believe... Not sure how I think about it. On one side it reminds me of religion, on another like a democratic vote has been had over this. But that might be my natural tendency to question the current paradigme.
Haha! It is a bit like an election. The most people believe it, therefore it must be true!
I'm still holding out for GRRM being so crafty as to have just lead a lot of people down the wrong path! I tiptoed down that path for a while, but never walked it with a firm step! And I still peek at that path every now and then. The text allows me up to consider almost any possibility!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I wanted to clarify my own absurd exaggeration and report there are currently only 164 R+L=J threads to catch up on, if anyone is so inclined.
Only 164? Damn, I might just have to join so that I can wip people into action and making more! Buuuuut on second thought, how many decimals are in the counting...?
Haha! It is a bit like an election. The most people believe it, therefore it must be true!
I'm still holding out for GRRM being so crafty as to have just lead a lot of people down the wrong path! I tiptoed down that path for a while, but never walked it with a firm step! And I still peek at that path every now and then. The text allows me up to consider almost any possibility!
Yeah, I've seen quite a few comments saying something like "We've already discussed that many times, and now everyone agrees on this:___________"! Oddly fascinating to read! There is a possibility he goes this way, but I honestly think not. Until we get it in (undemocratic) writing, I'll play with it as much as I'd like.