Post by DarkSister1001 on Sept 23, 2017 17:06:04 GMT
There's so much in this chapter (like Viserys referring to Drogo as "Aegon the Conqueror come again") so I'll try to stick with just the parentage theme.
Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved.
This is information she got from Viserys who, based on this chapter alone, could have only gotten it from
1) Willem Darry: Master of Arms at the Red Keep. Trained Rhaegar in combat. Brother to Jonathor Darry of Aery's KG.
2) Rhaella: Their mother.
Their guardian and/or their mother believed Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna.
It's also possible that he heard tales from servants the same way that Cat heard about Ashara. BUT consider that Aerys wouldn't allow Rhaella to be alone with Viserys so all of their conversations would have had witnesses of some sort. So if the info came from Rhaella (prior to the Sack) others would have known about it.
Few other tidbits:
We learn the Targaryens have silver hair and violet eyes.
They engage freely in incest to keep their bloodline pure.
Dany is 13.
Rhaegar's wife, Elia, was Dornish and their son was killed during the Sack
Viserys was named King over Aegon, Rhaegar's son.
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
I'd also point out that we get the framework for her and Vicerys' life from his and Rhaella's flight to Dragonstone:
- Vicerys was 8 years old, while Dany was just a quickening in her mother's womb. - A midnight flight with black sails. - Rhaegar and his heir was killed, as was Aerys. - The storm that was so fierce that the castle was damaged, and their fleet destroyed - Vicerys wants his crown and throne, while Dany just want to go home: the big house with the red door and a lemontree outside her window.
"A gift from the Magister Illyrio," Viserys said, smiling. Her brother was in a high mood tonight. "The color will bring out the violet in your eyes. And you shall have gold as well, and jewels of all sorts. Illyrio has promised. Tonight you must look like a princess."
This is the very first mention of human beings with violet/purple/lilac eyes in the series, and is the reader's introduction to the trait.
I find this to be interesting in X+Y=Dany, because the second mention of this trait is in reference to Ashara Dayne.
Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved.
This is the very first mention in the books of Rhaegar Targaryen. This is the context!?!
In the very next chapter, we learn that Robert avenged Lyanna at the Trident.
Already, this soon... in only the third chapter of the book... we are told that Rhaegar died for "the woman he loved", and by the fourth, we know the woman's name that Rhaegar died for.
Rhaegar ♥ Lyanna, and dying for her, is one of the very first stories the books tell us, and the very first thing we are told about Rhaegar Targaryen.
This isn't subtle. This isn't a mystery that readers have to search for. There is no literary 'rule of three'.
This is literally the very first thing we learn about Rhaegar... that he loved Lyanna. Not the rape story. The rape is the second account we are given. (Credit to prestonjacobs for pointing this out, I'm pretty sure he was the first... but it might have been JNR or snowfyre.)
Contrarily, I hope to one day learn that the name Rhaegar spoke with his final breath was "Ashara." But, I fear that day is not as close as I'd like.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Contrarily, I hope to one day learn that the name Rhaegar spoke with his final breath was "Ashara." But, I fear that day is not as close as I'd like.
Unfortunately, we're more likely to find out what George's last words are rather than Rhaegar's. And for the record, my guess is "green chili".
And yes, your point is very well taken. From what I can recall from first reading GOT, waaay back when, the trick was figuring out that Jon was Lyanna's son. Rhaegar being the father then came automatically, because after all, we weren't given any other options, at least not any obvious ones. Robert was too drunk and brutal. Howland was too small and wimpy. And Lyanna's brothers were ewww, Lyanna's brothers. The Starks weren't strange and foreign like the Targaryens, and they weren't creepy like the Lannisters. They were the ones that were just like us. So obviously the thought would never have crossed our minds.
When I finally got together with Parris again, it was the 80s, I was divorced, and she was living in Portland, Oregon and waiting tables at a lesbian feminist restaurant called Old Wives' Tales, where she was always getting in trouble for playing politically incorrect music. She wanted me to move to Oregon and I wanted her to move to New Mexico. I won, but I played dirty. I got her down to Santa Fe for a "visit" and addicted her to green chile and sopapillas, so she could never leave. Muwaaahahhaha.
karsa , what do you think about a "GRRM's last words" thread? Too mean?
And yes, your point is very well taken. From what I can recall from first reading GOT, waaay back when, the trick was figuring out that Jon was Lyanna's son. Rhaegar being the father then came automatically, because after all, we weren't given any other options, at least not any obvious ones.
Exactly. And this is exactly the process I used to see when I had fresh crops of students interested in reading the series. The fantasy fans always saw RLJ insanely quickly, and this was exactly how they came to it.
Even without that background, once you doubt Eddard (if nothing else, the "close as brothers" prayer casts some serious doubt upon him) and suspect Lyanna... Rhaegar really is automatic, and he really is the only explicit option we are given.
Chapter 3
Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved.
Chapter 4
The king touched her cheek, his fingers brushing across the rough stone as gently as if it were living flesh. "I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her." "You did," Ned reminded him. "Only once," Robert said bitterly. They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them, Robert with his warhammer and his great antlered helm, the Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight. The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert's hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it. When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor.
R&L are served on a golden platter in only four chapters. Not too bad. ...Lo and behold, the fifth chapter is Jon's.
Then we have the old Brotherhood without Banners notes from long before the fandom went crazy (2002). I can only imagine what the fandom was like in those simpler days between the release of Storm (2000) and Feast (2005). In the archives that remain, the discourse seems far more civil and open minded than Reddit and W. I like to think we've recreated a bit of that Middle Earth here at the Hearth.
Anyhoo, that was when a fan asked Parris McBride, GRRM's wife about R+L=J...
Trebla proceeded to talk about the R&L theory and how he believes it, hoping for a tidbit.
HER REPLY (paraphrasing): Do you really think George would do something so basic as Jon being the son of R&L?
*Trebla's jaw dropping open*
Here are the first three mentions of Rhaegar in the series:
Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved.
"I shall kill the Usurper myself," he promised, who had never killed anyone, "as he killed my brother Rhaegar.
The king touched her cheek, his fingers brushing across the rough stone as gently as if it were living flesh. "I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her."
And Lyanna's brothers were ewww, Lyanna's brothers. The Starks weren't strange and foreign like the Targaryens, and they weren't creepy like the Lannisters. They were the ones that were just like us. So obviously the thought would never have crossed our minds.
Like Parris said, hard to imagine something basic from George. Once you get a taste for GRRM's many levels of 'ewww', Lyanna+Brother seems pretty tame.
Last Edit: Sept 25, 2017 7:47:02 GMT by voice: Dornish keyboard
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Exactly. And this is exactly the process I used to see when I had fresh crops of students interested in reading the series. The fantasy fans always saw RLJ insanely quickly, and this was exactly how they came to it.
Even without that background, once you doubt Eddard (if nothing else, the "close as brothers" prayer casts some serious doubt upon him) and suspect Lyanna... Rhaegar really is automatic, and he really is the only explicit option we are given.
Haha, I actually didn't notice how fast R+L came up! As a sullied reader I dived in looking for anything other than that. It's kinda odd how obvious that is, and firmly placed in the back of your mind so early. No matter how soon you start suspecting Lyanna as the mother, you already have the conclution on a silver platter.
Haha, I actually didn't notice how fast R+L came up! As a sullied reader I dived in looking for anything other than that. It's kinda odd how obvious that is, and firmly placed in the back of your mind so early. No matter how soon you start suspecting Lyanna as the mother, you already have the conclution on a silver platter.
There's so much in this chapter (like Viserys referring to Drogo as "Aegon the Conqueror come again")
Interesting thing about this is that Viserys specifically says
Khal Drogo has never lost a fight. He is Aegon the Dragonlord come again, and you will be his queen.”
I had a flashback at Jon & Dany boatsex right there. Ugh. So, maybe a bit of foreshadowing (?) after all Jon's name is most likely Aegon. And he didn't really lose the real fight so far, has he. I mean he always wiggled out of losing in the end and cheated death(the real enemy according to Berric Dondarrion). But I'm going on show territory here.
I was still surprised to read that Dany is 13. Sure, I knew her age but poor kid.... I don't care what everyone says about the books but even Viserys is surprised that Drogo would like them that young. I don't think it's quite as normal as some make it sound in Martin's world if Viserys himself would point that out.
“Don’t fight in the North, or the South. Fight every battle everywhere. Always, in your mind.”
I know this was a recurrent discussion in other threads but I wanted to be on topic for once !
That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever.
Would the Dornish let their servants steal from Dany and Viserys and have them put out on the street? I mean if the house with the red door would be in Dorne. Sure, it could be a story that they spread so nobody would realize it was the Targaryen kids they hosted in that house but wouldn't Viserys be in on this? He was old enough by then (Bran's age) and effectively the head of the house with no protector in Ser Darry. I don't know. It seems weird.
Of course we have sweet lemon scent right there in Pentos in Illiryo's manse
Inside the manse, the air was heavy with the scent of spices, pinchfire and sweet lemon and cinnamon.
I always thought the House with the red door might be in Pentos and Illyrio probably just moved them to another of the three cities since he was sure the Targs have no power or leverage yet to contract viable alliances. Kids were too young.
Also, oddly enough Pentos is conveniently missing from Dany's travels.
“Don’t fight in the North, or the South. Fight every battle everywhere. Always, in your mind.”
I have to go with Marg on this one. I don't think these are false memories but mixed up in some way. I think the house with the red door is on the Summer Islands and she shipped with trading vessels and fishing ships around the southern part of the Narrow Sea.
A Game of Thrones - Eddard IV And so Ned had come striding into the council chambers, bone-tired and dressed in borrowed clothing, to find four members of the small council waiting for him.
The chamber was richly furnished. Myrish carpets covered the floor instead of rushes, and in one corner a hundred fabulous beasts cavorted in bright paints on a carved screen from the Summer Isles. The walls were hung with tapestries from Norvos and Qohor and Lys, and a pair of Valyrian sphinxes flanked the door, eyes of polished garnet smoldering in black marble faces
A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV She fled from him, but only as far as the next open door. I know this room, she thought. She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them. And there outside the window, a lemon tree! The sight of it made her heart ache with longing. It is the house with the red door, the house in Braavos.
At the market in Vaes Dothrak with Summer Islanders she remembers the smells of home:
A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VI Dany smiled shyly. It was sweet to laugh. She felt half a girl again.
They wandered for half the morning. She saw a beautiful feathered cloak from the Summer Isles, and took it for a gift. In return, she gave the merchant a silver medallion from her belt. That was how it was done among the Dothraki. A birdseller taught a green-and-red parrot to say her name, and Dany laughed again, yet still refused to take him. What would she do with a green-and-red parrot in a khalasar? She did take a dozen flasks of scented oils, the perfumes of her childhood; she had only to close her eyes and sniff them and she could see the big house with the red door once more. When Doreah looked longingly at a fertility charm at a magician's booth, Dany took that too and gave it to the handmaid, thinking that now she should find something for Irri and Jhiqui as well.
Trebla proceeded to talk about the R&L theory and how he believes it, hoping for a tidbit.
HER REPLY (paraphrasing): Do you really think George would do something so basic as Jon being the son of R&L?
*Trebla's jaw dropping open*
Holy shit! How have I never seen that before?
And wait... when do we learn that Ashara was one of Elia's handmaidens? Seems like not until ADwD right? If this SSM was right after AFfC release, why in the world are people suspecting Ashara as water to put out the Rhaegar+Lyanna fire speculation? I can't think of any evidence that links them before Barristan's POV and CERTAINLY not in regards to Jon.
What a weird couple answers, I wish I knew more about the context or had it on video or something.