If Lyanna sent Ned to TOJ, that could explain why Ned heard her in his dream.
It does give us a possibility. Ned certainly has her voice conflated in his memories of that place, both speaking and then screaming. And a storm of rose petals, and storms almost always make me think of Robert or of Dany. I suppose if Lyanna was already dead by this time, the sadness Ned feels makes sense, as well as his almost iron determination to "end" the situation, what ever that situation is. As lynn pointed out, the stages of grief could be playing through Eddard during his travels south from Kings Landing. I also have wondered if they knew of Lyanna's death by the time of the Battle of the Trident, which would make some sense of Robert not even seeming to try to find out her location from Rhaegar.
I read that implication as you do. But until a solid theory fits the implication (and I'm not convinced by any TOJ theory I have come across), I am trying not to assume my impressions about implications are correct.
I hear you. Implications in the story are dangerous to follow, as GRRM is like the pied piper, leading us down a merry path!
Lyanna would become one more character to spend an extended period in a dark place. It is a thread running through the story and there must be a purpose to it.
If she was in dark, cold place in life, and she ends up in a dark, cold place in death, is that part of the pattern. Does Robert know about a pattern and wishes it had been broke, even when considering her resting place. Robert didn't like Lyanna in the darkness of the crypts. He wanted her on a hill, under a fruit tree, with sun and clouds and rain. Maybe it's more than just summer and winter differences? If Robert had gotten his wish for a burial site for Lyanna, would it have stopped the course of events that still seem to be in motion?
When it comes to interpretations of unclear messages or events, our POV characters are often wrong. And a misdirect by Pycelle would be very fitting. But if Pycelle believed twincest, wouldn't he have informed Tywin?
I would bet that Pycelle is terrified of Tywin, and what he is capable of. I think all people probably should be! It might be that Tywin was sheltered from rumor's of Jaime and Cersei's affair, as who the heck would want to tell him about it. Although, it would be better for Tywin to know, so he would have time to defense it. Eventually, with Stannis' letters littering the kingdom, the accusations of Lannister incest are certainly placed before Tywin.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
It does give us a possibility. Ned certainly has her voice conflated in his memories of that place, both speaking and then screaming. And a storm of rose petals, and storms almost always make me think of Robert or of Dany. I suppose if Lyanna was already dead by this time, the sadness Ned feels makes sense, as well as his almost iron determination to "end" the situation, what ever that situation is. As lynn pointed out, the stages of grief could be playing through Eddard during his travels south from Kings Landing. I also have wondered if they knew of Lyanna's death by the time of the Battle of the Trident, which would make some sense of Robert not even seeming to try to find out her location from Rhaegar.
I'm just not sure that there was anyone in the tower of joy at all. I think Aerys moved Rhaegar and Viserys out of the way. I wouldn't put it beyond Aerys to send Rhaegar to preside over a pile of rocks in a fit of nastiness, with only a couple of his friends to keep him there. He took Dragonstone and the inheritance away from him and sent Viserys to what should be Rhaegar's seat. Now his inheritance is a place so rickety, it can be taken apart by Ned, Howland and some horses. Naming it the tower of joy seems tongue in cheek. It is a place of bitterness.
ETA: I think the KG stayed at the ToJ because they were ordered to stay there by Aerys. When Ned confronts them; they are still defending the king even though he is dead. Why? I imagine this is a ploy, a last ditch effort to get rid of Robert should the Targs fall. Ned knows where they are because a formal challenge has been issued, which is why he shows up with only seven men. It's likely that the ploy was to get Robert there and take him out. But Ned fought with Robert in his fury about who should go. In the end, it's Ned who is the only one who has ever said No to Robert.
It does give us a possibility. Ned certainly has her voice conflated in his memories of that place, both speaking and then screaming. And a storm of rose petals, and storms almost always make me think of Robert or of Dany. I suppose if Lyanna was already dead by this time, the sadness Ned feels makes sense, as well as his almost iron determination to "end" the situation, what ever that situation is. As lynn pointed out, the stages of grief could be playing through Eddard during his travels south from Kings Landing. I also have wondered if they knew of Lyanna's death by the time of the Battle of the Trident, which would make some sense of Robert not even seeming to try to find out her location from Rhaegar.
I'm just not sure that there was anyone in the tower of joy at all. I think Aerys moved Rhaegar and Viserys out of the way. I wouldn't put it beyond Aerys to send Rhaegar to preside over a pile of rocks in a fit of nastiness, with only a couple of his friends to keep him there. He took Dragonstone and the inheritance away from him and sent Viserys to what should be Rhaegar's seat. Now his inheritance is a place so rickety, it can be taken apart by Ned, Howland and some horses. Naming it the tower of joy seems tongue in cheek. It is a place of bitterness.
ETA: I think the KG stayed at the ToJ because they were ordered to stay there by Aerys. When Ned confronts them; they are still defending the king even though he is dead. Why? I imagine this is a ploy, a last ditch effort to get rid of Robert should the Targs fall. Ned knows where they are because a formal challenge has been issued, which is why he shows up with only seven men. It's likely that the ploy was to get Robert there and take him out. But Ned fought with Robert in his fury about who should go. In the end, it's Ned who is the only one who has ever said No to Robert.
So you think that Aerys sent Rhaegar into exile? With kingsguard to keep him in one place? I am interested in the idea but have never considered it before. I would assume they (Aerys and Rhaegar) might have been at odds, but not this great a division.
At what point in the story did Aerys send Rhaegar away? Rhaegar is missing for a long time, but certainly he was no where to be found when Brandon came to the Red Keep to challenge him. This would depend on whom the kingsguard favored, Aerys or Rhaegar. I suppose if Aerys felt like Rhaegar's actions had started a civil war, he might think this was justified, but we don't see the rebellion getting kicked off until after Aerys demands Ned and Robert's heads. That was all Aerys, and can't be blamed directly on Rhaegar.
Is it possible that Rhaegar did get in the middle of some plot that Aerys was hatching after Harrenhal, and this is what could have earned the crown prince his exile? Does it all lie in the true reason that Rhaegar and his companions set out from Kings Landing and what really was involved with them and Lyanna's kidnapping (supposed kidnapping)?
While I like the idea of Rhaegar being imprisoned, and therefore out of the fray, so to speak, I am not sure how long this could go on for. Eventually, Aerys sent to "the south" for Rhaegar, and Rhaegar came back to the Red Keep, organized some time of army, and marched to the Trident. At this point, is the only thing that is forcing Rhaegar to help Aerys effort the knowledge that Aerys has Elia and the children? I suppose Rhaegar could have been fighting along side an enemy (Aerys) to attempt to maintain the Targaryen dynasty to keep a great enemy (Robert and Ned) at bay.
At this point, why would Hightower, Whent and Dayne stay at a rickety pile of rocks? It makes little sense if Aerys is withholding three of his supposedly best fighters away from the fight and to have them alone in the south. Unless they were guarding something that was there, something else that needed to be kept safe or contained? Could some of SAD's sadness be that he favored Rhaegar but was duty bound to follow Aerys commands? And now they all will end up dead? That seems like something GRRM could include in his story, very tragic!
I do like the idea of a formal challenge, or a trial by seven. Seven x three? I have avoided the Dunk and Egg stories so I am not really familiar with all of the things related to that concept. But the idea of a formal meeting fit's the imagery of the toj in Ned's fever dream, with two sides meeting at a designated spot. But even if the kingsguard wanted to kill the usurper, in Ned's mind, he and Robert argued about Rhaegar's dead children. Of course, that could be purposeful misleading by the author and they argued over several things before Ned stormed south to finish the war. If Lyanna is already dead, and Ned blames her death on the Targaryen's, then it makes sense that he wants to avenge her. Except Ned really never seems to feel anger toward Aerys or Rhaegar, only the Lannister's, and most especially Tywin.
This whole concept is a bit new for me, so while I find the idea refreshing, I am still pondering all the "but, what if's" involved and "why's".
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
So you think that Aerys sent Rhaegar into exile? With kingsguard to keep him in one place? I am interested in the idea but have never considered it before. I would assume they (Aerys and Rhaegar) might have been at odds, but not this great a division.
Disinheriting Rhaegar is no small matter. That's a huge breach. Wherever Rhaegar happened to be at any point during the Rebellion, Aerys certainly knew that at some point; he was at the ToJ when he sends for Rhaegar to return. I wouldn't say that he sent him into exhile but rather put him in cold storage without any comforts.
At this point, why would Hightower, Whent and Dayne stay at a rickety pile of rocks? It makes little sense if Aerys is withholding three of his supposedly best fighters away from the fight and to have them alone in the south. Unless they were guarding something that was there, something else that needed to be kept safe or contained? Could some of SAD's sadness be that he favored Rhaegar but was duty bound to follow Aerys commands? And now they all will end up dead? That seems like something GRRM could include in his story, very tragic!
They were under the kings orders to stay there, a sleeper cell if you will. There doesn't need to be any more reason than that. These three KG are the best: the sword, the horse and the shield of the king. Their purpose seems to avenge the king should he die and take out the traitor Robert in a trial of champions even if the form isn't observed exactly. Except that is should have been Robert instead of Ned.
So you think that Aerys sent Rhaegar into exile? With kingsguard to keep him in one place? I am interested in the idea but have never considered it before. I would assume they (Aerys and Rhaegar) might have been at odds, but not this great a division.
Disinheriting Rhaegar is no small matter. That's a huge breach. Wherever Rhaegar happened to be at any point during the Rebellion, Aerys certainly knew that at some point; he was at the ToJ when he sends for Rhaegar to return. I wouldn't say that he sent him into exhile but rather put him in cold storage without any comforts.
I had rather always imagined that Aerys was unsure of where Rhaegar was at, and that Hightower might have had to search to find him. Of course, this fit's the RLJ mold that has been embraced by the fan base, as in Rhaegar and Lyanna in a love nest that is the toj, with Hightower searching them out. I don't buy that, but I have always questioned why Rhaegar didn't seem to help with the war effort sooner than he did. It never has made sense to me that the kingsguard at the toj, or at least Arthur Dayne, supposedly the best sword in Westeros, sat out the rebellion while his prince and great friend Rhaegar fought and died.
Certainly, if Rhaegar had been leading the Targaryen army sooner, things could be much different. I still think its odd that Tyrell, Redwyne and Tarly were all camped out at Storms End for most of the war. They, and Rhaegar leading the loyalist forces might have changed the tide of the war. The win at the Trident is what secured the victory for the rebels.
I really have wondered if Rhaegar wasn't withholding himself from the war effort until he got a promise out of his father, either for himself or his children, and it was only then that Rhaegar decided to fight. Still, I like the idea that Rhaegar was sort of in a prison that Aerys made for him, and was unable to join the war effort sooner.
I suppose until we get more clues (books) from GRRM, any of these options is possible. I sometimes wonder if he doesn't want to finish the series because then the mysteries that he has woven into the text will no longer be mysteries, and the fans will lose interest! And I suppose that many of them will feel hoodwinked by what I feel his his very purposefully misleading text!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
At this point, why would Hightower, Whent and Dayne stay at a rickety pile of rocks? It makes little sense if Aerys is withholding three of his supposedly best fighters away from the fight and to have them alone in the south. Unless they were guarding something that was there, something else that needed to be kept safe or contained? Could some of SAD's sadness be that he favored Rhaegar but was duty bound to follow Aerys commands? And now they all will end up dead? That seems like something GRRM could include in his story, very tragic!
They were under the kings orders to stay there, a sleeper cell if you will. There doesn't need to be any more reason than that. These three KG are the best: the sword, the horse and the shield of the king. Their purpose seems to avenge the king should he die and take out the traitor Robert in a trial of champions even if the form isn't observed exactly. Except that is should have been Robert instead of Ned.
It's very possible that Hightower, Whent and Dayne were meant to be a last ditch effort, even if the war was lost, to avenge the Targaryen king, but it just is more logical to use them to fight and win the war, instead of letting them sit out the war effort, waiting to see who wins and what their duty might entail. Of course, I don't know how logical Aerys might have been at this point. I do think the kingsguard seem, at least in Eddard's fever dream, to be somewhat resigned and defiant at the same time, and Ned is also resigned.
But if they were meant to end Robert, why does SAD speak the words "and now it begins" if they are meant this to be an ending. Certainly, they seem to have taken what ever vow they are defending very seriously, but it's not Robert they end up meeting, if that was the plan. They seem resigned to lose and to die. Of course, if your idea is correct, they might have felt they could kill Ned and his boys, then survive to challenge Robert at some other time and place.
But if Ned feels he is going to a challenge/trial by combat type of situation, has Ned really picked his best six fighters to back him up? We learn eventually that Howland isn't much of a fighter, at least according to Meera's Harrenhal story? Of course, Ned seems to feel that it was Howland Reed that saved his life, but would you pick a friend who is a poor fighter to die beside you, or a better fighter who is not a friend to help you win? Is it possible that Howland is a better fighter that he let on, and his ploy at Harrenhal was to draw the attention, sympathy and friendship of the Stark's?
And you bring Brandon's squire to this fight, who may just be a boy? Unless Ethan Glover came along to serve as some type of witness for the events that really went down in Kings Landing at the time of Brandon and Rickard's death? Hightower would also know, as he was there. But how good a fighter could Ethan Gover have been?
We get no hint that any of the men that arrived at the toj with Ned were very impressive fighters. We know they are proud, faithful, soft of speech and gentle of heart, and one of them had a great red stallion, but we know nothing about their fighting prowess. I guess we don't really know much about Ned's fighting, either, although he was doing a fair job against the Lannister soldiers in the street until his horse went down and he received his leg injury. Still, a mounted man against foot soldiers is almost always at an advantage.
I do think the there seems to be a level of formality at the toj meeting, between Ned and his wraith's and the three kingsguard. And maybe if you know you greatly out number the enemy, you might feel you are safe not to bring your strongest fighters. But still, SAD was supposed to be the best fighter in the realm, so does Ned arrive, thinking he is going to die? When he says, "now it ends" does he really mean his own life? If for some chance that Lyanna was still alive, did Ned think he could trade his life for hers, not to the kingsguard, but maybe to the old gods? He dies, she lives! But of course, that is not what happens, or maybe what was meant to be.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
It's very possible that Hightower, Whent and Dayne were meant to be a last ditch effort, even if the war was lost, to avenge the Targaryen king, but it just is more logical to use them to fight and win the war, instead of letting them sit out the war effort, waiting to see who wins and what their duty might entail. Of course, I don't know how logical Aerys might have been at this point. I do think the kingsguard seem, at least in Eddard's fever dream, to be somewhat resigned and defiant at the same time, and Ned is also resigned.
And yet, Gerold Hightower only orders Rhaegar back on behalf of the king. Aerys may have been mad; but Varys was not and he had the king's ear. We assume that is because they are guarding someone and yet their Q&A with Ned is all about defending the king.
The man's face grew strange. "Once, at the Citadel, I came into an empty room and saw an empty chair. Yet I knew a woman had been there, only a moment before. The cushion was dented where she'd sat, the cloth was still warm, and her scent lingered in the air. If we leave our smells behind us when we leave a room, surely something of our souls must remain when we leave this life?" Qyburn spread his hands. "The archmaesters did not like my thinking, though. Well, Marwyn did, but he was the only one."
A Storm of Swords - Sansa I
The old woman smelled of rosewater. Why, she's just the littlest bit of a thing. There was nothing the least bit thorny about her. "Kiss me, child," Lady Olenna said, tugging at Sansa's wrist with a soft spotted hand. "It is so kind of you to sup with me and my foolish flock of hens." Dutifully, Sansa kissed the old woman on the cheek. "It is kind of you to have me, my lady."
A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IX
"Lord Varys," the herald said, "master of whisperers." Powdered, primped, and smelling of rosewater, the Spider rubbed his hands one over the other all the time he spoke. Washing my life away, Tyrion thought, as he listened to the eunuch's mournful account of how the Imp had schemed to part Joffrey from the Hound's protection and spoken with Bronn of the benefits of having Tommen as king. Half-truths are worth more than outright lies. And unlike the others, Varys had documents; parchments painstakingly filled with notes, details, dates, whole conversations. So much material that its recitation took all day, and so much of it damning. Varys confirmed Tyrion's midnight visit to Grand Maester Pycelle's chambers and the theft of his poisons and potions, confirmed the threat he'd made to Cersei the night of their supper, confirmed every bloody thing but the poisoning itself. When Prince Oberyn asked him how he could possibly know all this, not having been present at any of these events, the eunuch only giggled and said, "My little birds told me. Knowing is their purpose, and mine."
A Feast for Crows - Cersei IX "Not kind," said Cersei, "merely truthful. Taena tells me that you are called the Blue Bard." "I am, Your Grace." The singer's boots were supple blue calfskin, his breeches fine blue wool. The tunic he wore was pale blue silk slashed with shiny blue satin. He had even gone so far as to dye his hair blue, in the Tyroshi fashion. Long and curly, it fell to his shoulders and smelled as if it had been washed in rosewater. From blue roses, no doubt. At least his teeth are white. They were good teeth, not the least bit crooked.
Blue roses and blue winter roses? Are they the same?
I agree that reading more than one book concurrently does help a person make some connections they might not otherwise have made. Whether we mislead ourselves with these connections is hard to say. I have wondered if I have done this before. Made a connection that maybe isn't one, just because I came across them so close to together.
In other words, tossing possible connections at the Wall and see what sticks in the end!
While I think of Robert as loving the ladies, I don't know if I think of him as a seducer or womanizer. I have a feeling most women sought Robert out.
Honestly, who seduces whom can at times be hard to say. To me Robert seems to be the kind of guy who might see a womans interest as a green light if he likes her, even if the woman isn't necessarily thinking of a tumble in the haystack (not singling out men for this, women does this too). Considering his charm, he could be the seducer even if it's more inadvertently on his part. If that made sense... Been a hectic week, so I'm a bit tired.
While I have thought a sword might need to be reforged, I had always thought it would be the two parts of Ice and more recently I felt like the sword hilt that would be used would be Waymar Royces. But I do see the idea if Dawn being broke into a million unfixable pieces! And if Dawn did break, maybe this is the catalyst for the beginning of the return of the Long Night imagery, winter, the Other's, etc.
It could be the reason for the Other's return. If Dawn played a significant role in the last Long Night and somehow held the Others in place, it's breaking could release them. And if so, maybe the total destruction of the sword was needed. But it could also be a different sword!
Well, if he does something like this, I don't think it will be this direct,but much more subtle, and I also think it will be a total homage to Tolkien. Still, GRRM is a huge fan of LotR, and I would be surprised if in some ways he wasn't trying to pay tribute and challenge Tolkien's story at the same time, much as he does with Ned the apparent hero's early death.
Homage yes, but with a twist I'd say. Having the sword being non-reforgable would be in line with this, as the reforging is so imortant in LotR.
I think it's an interesting idea, but I am not sure that GRRM would have been aware of it 20+ years ago, as the internet was young, and it is not a name found commonly in name books. But all it takes is one link, one meeting with a Wylla sometime, or trip to the Land Down Under for GRRM to make this connection and inject it into his story.
It is hard to say, and I have little and less knowledge of Aboriginal languages or of how Martin could become aware of it. But for the sake of argument, the translation is "wife" but also "woman" which I found far more interesting! That made me think of
"I don't even know who my mother was," Jon said. "Some woman, no doubt. Most of them are." Jon I, GoT
But as I have nothing to base the accuarcy of this translation on, for all I know it could be fake. Just found that part very interesting! As for other alternatives, my initial notes on this has disappeared so I'll have to start over... Might take a few days.
I think it's pretty possible that Jorah did set the poisoning attempt into motion, to earn both Dany's trust as well as promote Drogo to action. It seems like after Dany's egg's hatch and she survives the fire that Jorah has some changed idea's about her. After that he want's her to go to Asshai. Asshai seem's about as far away from Westeros as we can get.
I think if was the surviving the fire part that "turned" him, as I'm not sure if the hatching was unexpected. Wanting her to go to Asshai is interesting, but I have no idea what that would lead to. I'm inclined to think it has more to do with distance to Westeros, but that might be a given.
Well, Ned seems to understand lust, and so that might be more forgiven as part of a broken vow. And maybe when Ned claims that Jaime's shame was because he killed the king he made a vow to protect, it might be he actually was just angry that Jaime was the man to kill Aerys, and Ned didn't get the chance to serve first men justice to the man who had killed his father and brother!
Could be. But if so, would he then feel justice was served 15 years later? It clashes with his later non-existing feelings for Aerys in GoT in my mind.
But I do find your idea of Lyanna in the black cell's as intriguing. It would be a connection to her and Ned in a dark place, not the crypts, but similar in coldness and darkness.
Considering Martin's love for windowless towers in his story, Lyanna spending a prolonged period in darkness is possible while still being in a tower. It would be the inversion of Ned's period in darkness - her being above ground, him being below, but both still in darkness.
A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.
Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.
The other thing that is described this way is the Iron Throne itself and the one who sits on it.
A Game of Thrones - Eddard XI "They would of done the same for us, but the Sherrer holdfast's made of stone," Joss said. "Some wanted to smoke us out, but the big one said there was riper fruit up river, and they made for the Mummer's Ford." Ned could feel cold steel against his fingers as he leaned forward. Between each finger was a blade, the points of twisted swords fanning out like talons from arms of the throne. Even after three centuries, some were still sharp enough to cut. The Iron Throne was full of traps for the unwary. The songs said it had taken a thousand blades to make it, heated white-hot in the furnace breath of Balerion the Black Dread. The hammering had taken fifty-nine days. The end of it was this hunched black beast made of razor edges and barbs and ribbons of sharp metal; a chair that could kill a man, and had, if the stories could be believed.
So when Ned dreams that the crown of roses is hiding thorns beneath it, scratching and clawing; are we being told that Aerys is behind Rhaegar awarding the crown to Lyanna? Is this why he bypasses Elia and gives Lyanna the roses from the end of his lance? Because what follows is Lyanna's disappearance and Aerys' attempt to destroy House Stark.
I don't see any romance here and please don't give me the skinny fox's interp that the thorns represent the hardship in Rhaegar/Lyanna's relationship.
It does give us a possibility. Ned certainly has her voice conflated in his memories of that place, both speaking and then screaming. And a storm of rose petals, and storms almost always make me think of Robert or of Dany. I suppose if Lyanna was already dead by this time, the sadness Ned feels makes sense, as well as his almost iron determination to "end" the situation, what ever that situation is. As lynn pointed out, the stages of grief could be playing through Eddard during his travels south from Kings Landing. I also have wondered if they knew of Lyanna's death by the time of the Battle of the Trident, which would make some sense of Robert not even seeming to try to find out her location from Rhaegar.
It had occurred to me that Ned might have known but for some reason I had assumed that he withheld the fact from Robert. I guess I'm constantly trying to put pieces into that place of things Ned is not telling Robert. But it does make sense that Robert would have known. That said, Robert is all id; he wasn't defending his lady love, he was attacking his enemy. There might have been smart ways to try to get the truth from Rhaegar (although battle might have made that attempt impossible) but Robert's rage was driving him.
If she was in dark, cold place in life, and she ends up in a dark, cold place in death, is that part of the pattern. Does Robert know about a pattern and wishes it had been broke, even when considering her resting place. Robert didn't like Lyanna in the darkness of the crypts. He wanted her on a hill, under a fruit tree, with sun and clouds and rain. Maybe it's more than just summer and winter differences? If Robert had gotten his wish for a burial site for Lyanna, would it have stopped the course of events that still seem to be in motion?
Another area where I suspect that Ned understands something that Robert does not. But maybe, whatever the significance the crypts hold, maybe Robert has some understanding of that. Maybe I have it reversed, maybe Robert know something about those dark crypts that Ned did not. Maybe Robert intentionally drew Ned away from Winterfell because he understood its secrets. Without another hint or two at the nature of those secrets, either notion seems to make as much sense. Ned clearly has secrets from Robert, but the inverse could also be true. Robert may even know what Ned's secrets are, and more. I doubt it. Robert doesn't seem like a good vehicle for secrets. He is too direct and undisciplined. He would be my candidate for 'least likely to have a double identity.'
A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.
Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.
The other thing that is described this way is the Iron Throne itself and the one who sits on it.
That is an interesting observation. It is interesting that Ned reaches for the crown as if it is something desirable, then it cuts him. Why would Ned claim that crown of roses? Was it somehow directed to him? I hadn't seen the parallel with the Iron Throne, but I can't unsee it now that you have pointed to it. Making sense of it is another matter. I don't think the observation necessarily means it came from Aerys. If Rhaegar was offering Ned (or the Starks) power, and if Aerys recognized that, then Aerys may have begun his anti-Stark campaign for that reason. Or it could have been a warning from Rhaegar -- you can grab what you want, but there are thorns within. Until now, I have simply assumed that Ned reached for those roses in his role as protector of Lyanna. They were given to her, and shouldn't have been, so in his dream, he took them. But this may open some far more interesting possibilities
That is an interesting observation. It is interesting that Ned reaches for the crown as if it is something desirable, then it cuts him. Why would Ned claim that crown of roses? Was it somehow directed to him? I hadn't seen the parallel with the Iron Throne, but I can't unsee it now that you have pointed to it. Making sense of it is another matter.
LOL! The crown of roses is tied to the events at Harrenhal and Lyanna. Whatever was going on behind the scenes with Rhaegar; Aerys was probably not wrong that some conspiracy was underway and decides to show up himself. Lyanna calls attention to the Starks first by making the point that the Starks defend their bannermen. Then the KotLT essentially tells everybody that Aerys' liege lords have no honor. All under the aegis of the old gods, a unifying force in the North. I think the thorns hidden in the crown, scraping and scratching, cutting and cruel represent Aerys (the crown and the iron throne) actions towards the Starks starting with Lyanna. I think Rhaegar was told to give the crown to Lyanna by Aerys as a warning to the Starks, from the end of Rhaegar's lance. What follows is that Lyanna disappears and Aerys attempts to eliminate House Stark and Robert Baratheon. So it may be that the Northern Lords were 'reaching for crown' with Ned and Robert and Lyanna was part of the price that was paid.
It wouldn't surprise me if Ned found Lyanna in the black cells when he took Kingslanding.
It's very possible that Hightower, Whent and Dayne were meant to be a last ditch effort, even if the war was lost, to avenge the Targaryen king, but it just is more logical to use them to fight and win the war, instead of letting them sit out the war effort, waiting to see who wins and what their duty might entail. Of course, I don't know how logical Aerys might have been at this point. I do think the kingsguard seem, at least in Eddard's fever dream, to be somewhat resigned and defiant at the same time, and Ned is also resigned.
And yet, Gerold Hightower only orders Rhaegar back on behalf of the king. Aerys may have been mad; but Varys was not and he had the king's ear. We assume that is because they are guarding someone and yet their Q&A with Ned is all about defending the king.
So, in the published text, the reason that Rhaegar came back from the south is not known, only that he returned from the south. I think that is in the world book, and not the novels. I think the information on Gerald Hightower being sent to get Rhaegar is from the app. I don't have that and not planning on getting access to it. But I do question how valid some of that information might be. I even question what the World Book tells us. What we have is a lot of speculation about where Rhaegar was and what he was doing, and what is plans were. And we still have no real idea what Hightower, Whent and Dayne were up to by missing the majority of the rebellion.
I agree the conversation between Ned and the kingsguard seem to be about defending the Targaryen throne, or at least the idea of a Targaryen as the true king as opposed to the usurper, but the conversation is still very vague, and leads to many more questions than answers. The kingsguard feel that Willem Darry has "fled" by taking the queen and Viserys to Dragonstone, but that they themselves will not "flee". Of course, this the idea that supports so many ideas that Rhaegar's son (it must be Jon with Lyanna dying giving him birth to make the RLJ faction happy) was in the tower of joy. I certainly don't think Jon was there, and maybe any other infant, so what where they doing? Another prince? Aegon the trueborn son of Rhaegar and Elia? Maybe. Or no one else at all, and it is as you speculate. That they were there to fulfill some type of vow that they made or order that they had been given!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
And yet, Gerold Hightower only orders Rhaegar back on behalf of the king. Aerys may have been mad; but Varys was not and he had the king's ear. We assume that is because they are guarding someone and yet their Q&A with Ned is all about defending the king.
So, in the published text, the reason that Rhaegar came back from the south is not known, only that he returned from the south. I think that is in the world book, and not the novels. I think the information on Gerald Hightower being sent to get Rhaegar is from the app. I don't have that and not planning on getting access to it. But I do question how valid some of that information might be. I even question what the World Book tells us. What we have is a lot of speculation about where Rhaegar was and what he was doing, and what is plans were. And we still have no real idea what Hightower, Whent and Dayne were up to by missing the majority of the rebellion.
I agree the conversation between Ned and the kingsguard seem to be about defending the Targaryen throne, or at least the idea of a Targaryen as the true king as opposed to the usurper, but the conversation is still very vague, and leads to many more questions than answers. The kingsguard feel that Willem Darry has "fled" by taking the queen and Viserys to Dragonstone, but that they themselves will not "flee". Of course, this the idea that supports so many ideas that Rhaegar's son (it must be Jon with Lyanna dying giving him birth to make the RLJ faction happy) was in the tower of joy. I certainly don't think Jon was there, and maybe any other infant, so what where they doing? Another prince? Aegon the trueborn son of Rhaegar and Elia? Maybe. Or no one else at all, and it is as you speculate. That they were there to fulfill some type of vow that they made or order that they had been given!
Much of what is written is fantasizing about Rhaegar. The lance is a phallus, the thorns hidden in the crown symbolic of their troubled relationship when they run off together, Lyanna still had the crown with her when she died. What is the whole point of RLJ in the first place? Why is there an underlying assumption that Jon must have Targ/Stark blood?