1.12 Eddard II

King Bob's version is not necessarily the official story. He was probably given hints that he was told were not to be told to anyone. I think the only 'official' story is that Ned brought a bastard home and would not identify the mother. Since Wylla really exists, I doubt that Ned would want her name circulated as Jon's mother.

Maybe they have had this conversation before. Maybe Ned believes King Bob should know that he should not prod for information here. I do suspect that deceiving Bob is required is the promises to Lyanna are to be kept.

Ned's odd reactions cause me to wonder about his perspective on the Targs. Maybe Ned is primarily opposed to the murder of Targ children? I can only think of two occasions when he vehemently protests the murder of children, Targs in both cases. It's not really enough data to find a pattern, but put it with his lack of resentment toward Aerys or Rhaegar and I think there is some sort of affinity with the Targs.

Maybe Ned did intend to tell some key truth about the rebellion, that is was all without honor. Of course Bob didn't want to hear it, and he didn't. Maybe Ned wants to reveal that RR was based on lies, but doesn't because that would risk bringing other secrets to light.

I agree that Robert's info likely came from Ned. But Robert was fishing for an unremembered name -- likely one that he had been given earlier by Ned.

One of those two was Jon's wetnurse. That makes her a strong candidate

A close reading of ASOIAF breeds that sort of paranoia

I've wondered whether Arryn was a puppetmaster behind RR. There is precious little evidence to support that, but not much pointing in any particular direction, so maybe

My main interest in this conversation is Ned and his reactions. IIRC we get three times where he's confronted with questions of Jon's mother, one off page, and with this as one of two on page. So I'm not going to ignore it!
Also, it's the place where we get another alternative for Jon's mother, and frankly she opens up some possible paths for speculation.
I do think it's possible that Robert had a mini-fishing here, but not out of something negative. As he has plenty of bastards himself, it's not a big deal for him. But I can see his curiosity being peeked somewhat at Winterfell, and it has been many years and maybe he could get something more out of Ned. So the not remembering of the name might be something or it might be nothing. In any case, we'll never know.


Maybe, maybe not. I agree that it seems like Ned didn't circulate her name, but the Daynes gave another story to Little Ned and that's a bit perplexing. So was that an internal family story, or something more publicly known at Starfall? Or it could be a story given to a child to explain why he and Jon was milkbrothers, but a deeper investigation would be ruled out as Jon's mother? Hard to say at this point.
I'm inclined to think that if Wylla indeed was Jon's mother, it's not the Wylla we hear about.


Nah, no paranoia! All we know is that Ned refused to speak about her to anyone, the protection part comes into later speculations. I'll probably keep this little piece of tinfoil until we get an answer, though. How prominent it will be would depend who I might think the mystery mother is.


We don't really get many options on who did what at the time leading up to the rebellion, so it's speculation on most of the players. But players there were, and one big question is who stood to gain the most. Arrys certainly gained alot! I'll keep him as one of the major hands in what took place until I get solid information on the opposite.


Oh, I'd say much more than a double meaning! I get some trouble with that part, as I see so many possibilities for several layers. Who/why the rebellion started in the first place, Tywin's real reason for taking KL (at least two possible here), etc etc. It's one of those that makes my head spin a little.
As for Lyanna, I'm not even sure she was a bit rallying cry for the lords and troops but something that made the rebellion more romantic after it was done. She could still be a spark for what followed, but not a major part of the war propaganda. It depends on what really happened there.


Nice! Arya also had a similar reaction as she first enters the skull-room IIRC. But soon brushes it off after seeing it was only skulls. But she is a hardcore realist!


I'd say he's accurate on some, but not all. But that's because I like the idea that Jamie was nudged to do what he did by a certain firstborn son that never came home. And it's the fall of that son that is his biggest disappointment and disillusionment. His true king.

I agree that Robert doesn't know the whole story, but I think it is Robert's version that is the official rebellion story. There are important details that are missing from the official story.

I don't know about affinity with the Targaryen's. Ned certainly doesn't want to see Cersei's children meet the same fate as Rhaegar's children and that is why he gives her a chance to get them safe. But he was still going to tell Robert the truth. But Ned might have argued and fought in defense of Robert not harming those children either. And honestly, I don't know if Robert could have killed them, or even ordered it. It's one think to order the death of Dany, a girl whom he had never met, but much harder to order the death of children you had known since they were babies, especially Myrcella and Tommen, who are nice kids. 

Truly, I think Ned's wants to reveal something more about the Lannister's, possibly that Tywin had a lot more to do with orchestrating the rebellion, or even might have been responsible for the death's of Rickard and Brandon. I agree that Ned doesn't seem to have much hate in his heart for Aerys over these deaths. It is odd. Or Ned is completely blanketing himself in denial.

Hahahaha! Truth!

I think it's very likely!

I think that Robert was hiding things from Ned over the beginnings of the rebellion, just like it seems Ned might have been hiding things from Robert. I think they probably both were manipulated in some way's to promote a response. Jon Arryn seems like the likely person to do this, and he had some influence over them both. But I also think that Tywin and Hoster Tully also played a manipulative role.

I am going to try to not hit on points already made by others, and I am going to try to stick to ideas just related to parentage, but I might get waylaid.

Just a quick look at the names that Robert and Ned mention. Becca, Aleena, Merryl, Wylla.

One thing they all have in common is a repetition of letters. CC, EE, RR, LL. I am not sure if that means anything, but I find it interesting. All of these sames could be without the repetition, Beca, Alena, Meryl, Wyla, as well as with the names  Lyana, and Lyara, but we get the letter repeated.

I admit that the CC in Becca is about the only thing I have for that name, but the rest I have a little more.

Wylla, as I argued up thread, I think is a pseudonym for Lyanna. Lya and Wylla have a similar sound, and similar letters. I don't think that the name that Ned uses for Jon's mother is random. He could have just made up any old thing, but either his honor, his inability to lie haphazardly, or a duty he thinks he owns to the memory of Jon's actual mother does not allow him to just say any name.

Merryl is interesting to me because if you turn in backwards, you get Lyrrem. Which is not a name at all, but the L-Y-R-R really reminds me of Lyarra Stark, and is seems likely that Lyanna was named after her mother Lyarra. (Okay, I admit this is really digging deep )

Aleena. This is the one, besides my gut feeling about Wylla/Lya connection is the most interesting. Aleena. If you break it apart based on syllable sounds you get A-LEE-NA. Mix the order up and you get LEE-A-NA. Lyanna! Could be GRRM teasing us with letter games? I wish I could claim that this was my idea, but I read in somewhere on the the web, and thought it was pretty darn interesting!

No matter who Jon's father ends up being, I think like 99% that Lyanna is his mother, and GRRM was sneakily telling us this often and early in the story. What I find interesting is all but Wylla are names that Robert gives us, so does that mean that Robert is hinting or digging around the idea that the boy that Ned has claimed as his son is actually the son of Lyanna? And if Robert would have confirmation of that, what would he do about it? I certainly don't think that Robert is thinking Starkcest, or even a Dayne connection, but he might have RLJ on the mind! But does he think that Ned could deceive them all this well?

The whole passage is interesting in itself, and certainly many parts of it have been picked over during the years. As shymaid pointed out, this line "I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men" does seem to indicate that this is something that Ned did that seems to have had ramifications on his marriage. Now, if you ignore the "in the sight of gods and men", and just look at the "I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn", I think that whatever Ned did continued after his marriage to Cat. This thing with the woman Ned claims in Jon's mother might have started before he wed Cat, but I think it continued after the wedding.

Now, Cat seems to think so too, as she seems to indicate that Jon was conceived while Ned was on campaign. And technically, Ned's war campaign probably started before their marriage and went on after it (from as early to Jon Arryn calling his banners to Ned ending the siege of Storms End or Ned returning Dawn to Starfall),but she might think that Jon was conceived before her marriage to Ned. And that might be why she really worries about Jon. As Jon would/could be Ned's eldest. I know there are idea's out there that Ned was married to Jon's mother, but I don't really think so. Ned seems to think of Jon as a bastard in his mind, and I think that is the truth.

So, this could hint at Ashara as Jon's mother, or Lyanna, which is a theory I personally find the strongest at this time. Ned could have been carrying on with either woman before and after his marriage to Cat. Something easily could have started as far back as Harrenhal, and went on as long is Ned returning Dawn to Starfall.

***

The other part of this passage that has always perplexed me, and one that I have thought about over the years, and didn't really fall into place for me until just around a year ago is this part of the conversation:

"Damn it, no woman wants Baelor the Blessed in her bed."

The first time I read Game, even having watched the first season, I was completely overwhelmed by names and places and plot. Baelor meant nothing to me. I am not sure I even connected this line with the Sept of Baelor with my very first read. As we all are aware, with each reread, more things connect, or makes sense, or stand out to us. This line about Baelor is one of those that always seemed odd to me, but finally, hit me like a ton of bricks, and I feel like I was dazed into seeing the truth, if that makes any sense.

So, what do we know of Baelor I Targaryen?

Baelor was the second son of a Targaryen and Valeryon, and it certainly seems like there is some power in those families combining to have children. Just ask Aegon I or Visenya or Rhaenys, the dragon riding conqueror's of the majority of Westeros. Baelor was the younger brother of Daeron I, the Young Dragon, whom conquered Dorne and later died trying to hold Dorne. He is the man whom Jon seems to admire and Robb's arc seems to emulate. After his death, his younger brother Baelor comes to the throne. Baelor also had three younger sisters, Daena, Rhaena and Elaena.

Baelor was pious and was trained as a septon. He had a strong faith in the Seven, so much so that he built a great and magnificent Sept in King's Landing to honor this religion. Baelor did some interesting things, like almost killing himself several times, either by fasting/starvation (twice) or walking through a pit of vipers to save his cousin Aemon. He is remembered for bringing a peace between Dorne and the Targaryen dynasty. He was known for his charity and his kind deeds to the poor, and for locking his sisters in an area of the Red Keep that would become known as the Maidenvault. He is known for outlawing prostitution in Kings Landing and for naming an eight year old street urchin as High Septon. Baelor I is a very interesting Targaryen, and I don't want to go into huge detail about him, but he is worth looking into, as is his sister Daena.

Baelor was married to the eldest of his sister's Daena, in 160. This was a year before his brother Daeron died, and I do find myself wondering why Daeron was never married to one of his sisters. I guess it doesn't matter, as Daeron died the next year, leaving Baelor to be king and Daena to be queen. But Baelor refused to consummate his marriage to his sister, and later had the marriage annulled. He did imprison his sisters in the Maidenvault, to keep them safe from the outside world and the lusts of men (and probably his own lusts-apparently he was tempted by them) and to keep them from marrying anyone else and having children. I think that Baelor was probably aware of some prophecy, and his interpretation was that neither he nor his sister's should bear children.

Daena, his sister/wife, was known for thrice breaking out of the Maidenvault to seek him out to consummate their marriage, even though Baelor had the marriage annulled, it seems that Daena, known as the Defiant, did not recognize the annulment. At the time of her final prison break, Daena became pregnant, although she never named the father of her child. Daena was again imprisoned in the Maidenvault for the duration of her pregnancy, and eventually bore a healthy son she named Daemon, whose father she would not name. This son of Daena's would be known as Daemon Waters or eventually as Daemon Blackfyre, the bastard son of Daena Targaryen, also as the bastard son of Aegon IV the Unworthy (or so he claimed), who at the age of 12 was knighted by Aegon IV and given the Targeryen ancestral sword Blackfyre, and who eventually became known as Daemon I Blackfyre, and kicked off the first Blackfyre rebellion. Also a very interesting Targaryen.

After Daena's son Daemon's birth, Baelor started the last of his fasts. He fasted for 40 days and 40 nights, praying for forgiveness for his lusts, eventually collapsing and dying. There are rumor's that Baelor was poisoned, but I think that he starved himself to death in shame over the lust he had for his sister. I personally think that during Daena's second prison break, she did tempt Baelor enough that they did consummate their relationship. I think that Daena became pregnant by Baelor at this time. I think this pregnancy lead to Baelor's last fast seeking atonement for his lust. This is certainly tinfoil on my part, but I think it fits the story perfectly. This all fell into place for me last December, and at that time I did some internet searching and really never found much theorizing about this possibility of Baelor and Daena being the parents of Daemon Blackfyre. A few little blips that were quickly refuted by the majority of commenting fan base who are determined that Daemon was one of Aegon's great bastards. One thread was pretty quickly closed by an Admin known as Ran over at Westeros ( ). I personally think that Aegon found out that Baelor was Daemon's father, and decided to try to correct the inheritance of the Targaryen dynasty by giving Daemon a chance at the throne. He named him his son and gave him Blackfyre. Of all the people who could have been given Blackfyre, I think that Aegon IV, who is so reviled by many, gave that sword to the boy who should have been Baelor's heir. I realize that Baelor had his marriage to Daena annulled but whether the annulment was legitimate could be argued. I think that years later, Daemon found out the truth and that is why he decided to claim the throne.
Complete  , but to me it feels "right".

So, how does this apply to Ned? Well, it's an example of a hidden sibling incest relationship that lead to a secret child.

I think as far as Starkcest goes, Brandon, Ned and Benjen are all decent candidates for Lyanna's baby daddy. Even Rickard if we want to go the father route, and not the sibling route. But I favor Ned for several reasons. Personally, Ned is haunted by Lyanna, he comments on Jon being a bastard and the lusts that create bastards, he feels shame and sorrow when thinking of Jon. He feel's "sick" when Cersei and Jaime's incest is confirmed but he is not shocked or revolted by it. He shows consideration for the children that relationship produced and tries to protect them from Robert's wrath. I think that Ned is on a pretty high pedestal at the beginning of the story, and that while GRRM knocked him off it, he is not quite done messing with our idea's of Eddard Stark and his "honor".

The thing that cements the idea of Eddard and Lyanna as Jon's parents are the comment that Robert flings (unknowingly) at Eddard's head in this chapter.

"You are too hard on yourself, Ned. You always were. Damn it, no woman wants Baelor the Blessed in her bed." AGOT-Eddard II

Well, we know one woman who wanted Baelor the Blessed in her bed, and that was Baelor's sister Daena!!!

And even if Daemon is not Baelor's son by Daena, that does not change the fact that Baelor was the man that Daena wanted in her bed, which is still a nod at incest, and it's connected right with Ned in this conversation with Bobby B!

I think it's ironically fitting that Ned met his end on the steps of the Sept that Baelor built, in the same place that Baelor eventually died. I don't think they deserved to die for their incest, but I do recognize a connection between those two men. And Ned probably on some level recognized it as well. And if, as some speculate, that Ned's bones have actually been carried back to Kings Landing, they might very well be piled at the feet of the statue of Baelor near the Sept. I recognize that Daena was defiant and Lyanna had a touch of the wolfsblood, and both of them might have been determined to create an incest baby. Lyanna might have even hoped to have this baby with Brandon, but when he died, she turned to the next eldest of her brothers. Much like Daena maybe should have been Daeron's wife but married Baelor, the second son, instead. I see that Daena and Lyanna were no doubt the aggressors in any sexual situation, much like Ygritte was with Jon. I wonder if Daemon dreamt of his fathers sword, much like Jon dreams of his father's sword? (yes, I know that Baelor wasn't a swordsman and probably never wielded Blackfyre, but the sword was his by right of inheritance. And I wonder what Daemon's eventual fate might mean for Jon Snow?

I have to say, I feel rather drained after spitting that rather large ball of tinfoil out, but I am going to continue on with this chapter.

***

I want to look and Robert and Ned talking about Dany.

In this situation, Ned does not seem to worried about Dany. He also doesn't seem to act as if he feels any strong connection to her, if she is a baby that he saved by getting her safely out of Westeros, but Ned is pretty good at hiding his emotions from the reader, even in his own POV.

I think it's very interesting that Ned uses the words vile and unspeakable to consider the idea of the murder of Dany. Now, he also thinks she is still a child, and at 13, she really is, but she is a married woman, so I don't think that is what Ned is focusing on. I think it's something else. Now, again, Ned doesn't give us any indication that he was responsible for Dany's being smuggled out of Westeros, but it's possible that he was, and that he knows who her parent are.

This fans the fire of my idea's on Rhaegar and Ashara. This could be the baby girl that Ashara "lost" instead of miscarried, and this could be a Targaryen babe that Ned was able to save. I really think this could be a a hint at RAD.

A flash of tinfoil I have recently come to consider is that Robert could some how be Dany's father. I am unsure of who I think her mother is in this scenario, but we know that another thing in the Seven Kingdoms is pretty vile and unspeakable and that is kinslaying. Even unknown kinslaying! Is Ned trying to protect his best friend from becoming a kinsslayer, cursed by the Gods? We will later see Ned argue with Robert about Dany's life, argue to the point of Ned resigning as Hand, and walking out of Robert's life.

For what ever the reason this turns our to be about, this is the first hint that Ned is serious about either protecting Daenerys, or protecting Robert from a huge error when it comes to taking Daenerys' life. I think that Ned views Dany as a bit different than he viewed Rhaenys and Aegon, so that could mean that Robert's connection to Dany is different. To counter argue this, it could be said that it was never Robert who gave the order to have Rhaenys and Aegon killed, therefore freeing him from the vile and unspeakable guilt of their murders!

For whatever reason, or a reason that has been been made clear to us yet, Jon Arryn also seemed to be protecting Dany from Robert. It could be for many reasons, but it's possible that Jon Arryn knew that Robert was Dany's father, too! If that turns out to be the case. It's also possible that Jon Arryn also did not believe in the murder of children, and for years, both Viserys and Dany could be considered children.

Whatever these lies are, I think they are multifaceted. They are more than just Jon's parentage, or the truth of Lyanna, or the truth of the rebellion, or the possible truth of Daenerys. Several lies are haunting Eddard's dreams, and I wonder that he has had a peaceful nights sleep since he became Lord of Winterfell.

Again, we get this vague reaction from Ned in regards to Lyanna and what might have happened to her. But I get a glimmer here that maybe Robert did avenge Lyanna on the Trident. That he did avenge what a Targaryen did to her. I am certainly not saying that Rhaegar did kidnap and rape Lyanna, but there is no guilt in Ned's thought process here to make me think that Robert killed an innocent man when he killed Rhaegar. Something happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna, but I don't think it was RLJ or any of it's many manifestations! But something ... and maybe that goes all the way back to what Robert and Ned perceive to be Rhaegar insulting Lyanna with a rose crown at Harrenhal!

Not a ton of parentage stuff in this chapter, but it's funny how the one thing I find so concrete and "damning" about Starkcest: version Ned and Lyanna is here! But I think there is that little hint about the murder of Dany, who while she is 13, is wedded and bedded and can no longer be considered a child, but Ned still considers her murder ordered by Robert to be both vile and damning!

This chapter has my tinfoil flag flying tall!

I agree that reading more than one book concurrently does help a person make some connections they might not otherwise have made. Whether we mislead ourselves with these connections is hard to say. I have wondered if I have done this before. Made a connection that maybe isn't one, just because I came across them so close to together.

I am not sure that I see this for Lyanna, but it might be my personal preference that this isn't the case. However, if Cersei is currently prego in our story, the father of her child might be hard to determine, and could mirror this idea in Lyanna (or Ashara). It could be Jaime, it could be one of the Kettleblacks's, maybe even Moonboy!, etc.

While I think of Robert as loving the ladies, I don't know if I think of him as a seducer or womanizer. I have a feeling most women sought Robert out.

I had not realized the phrase came up so often. I am surprised it is that much. It's hard for me to ignore the implications now.

While I have thought a sword might need to be reforged, I had always thought it would be the two parts of Ice and more recently I felt like the sword hilt that would be used would be Waymar Royces. But I do see the idea if Dawn being broke into a million unfixable pieces! And if Dawn did break, maybe this is the catalyst for the beginning of the return of the Long Night imagery, winter, the Other's, etc.

Well, if he does something like this, I don't think it will be this direct,but much more subtle, and I also think it will be a total homage to Tolkien. Still, GRRM is a huge fan of LotR, and I would be surprised if in some ways he wasn't trying to pay tribute and challenge Tolkien's story at the same time, much as he does with Ned the apparent hero's early death.

Oh, gosh, I have some tinfoil about the prologue and a connection I have recently seen to one of the more epic images from the novels.


I think it's an interesting idea, but I am not sure that GRRM would have been aware of it 20+ years ago, as the internet was young, and it is not a name found commonly in name books. But all it takes is one link, one meeting with a Wylla sometime, or trip to the Land Down Under for GRRM to make this connection and inject it into his story.

I think it's pretty possible that Jorah did set the poisoning attempt into motion, to earn both Dany's trust as well as promote Drogo to action. It seems like after Dany's egg's hatch and she survives the fire that Jorah has some changed idea's about her. After that he want's her to go to Asshai. Asshai seem's about as far away from Westeros as we can get.

Well, Ned seems to understand lust, and so that might be more forgiven as part of a broken vow. And maybe when Ned claims that Jaime's shame was because he killed the king he made a vow to protect, it might be he actually was just angry that Jaime was the man to kill Aerys, and Ned didn't get the chance to serve  first men justice to the man who had killed his father and brother!