So when Ned dreams that the crown of roses is hiding thorns beneath it, scratching and clawing; are we being told that Aerys is behind Rhaegar awarding the crown to Lyanna?
Interesting thoughts on connecting the thorns in the crown to Aerys, or at least the Iron Throne. Not sure if Aerys was responsible but certainly possible. If so, it sets Rhaegar up as his Daddy's errand boy!
I have wondered if they were real thorns or just figurative in Ned's dream?
I do feel like that is supposed to be a clue to the reader that the Crown that Rhaegar gave Lyanna at Harrenhal was not a gift full of love and ardor. It was something that was meant, if not to cause pain, then to certainly cause some upset or upheaval. Which it did.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Honestly, who seduces whom can at times be hard to say. To me Robert seems to be the kind of guy who might see a womans interest as a green light if he likes her, even if the woman isn't necessarily thinking of a tumble in the haystack (not singling out men for this, women does this too). Considering his charm, he could be the seducer even if it's more inadvertently on his part.
I think that women probably flocked to Robert. Some men have that aura about them. Women, too! I don't think of Robert as charming at all. He is rather crude, and rough about the edges. But I do think of him as having great charisma, and that might be all that it takes for him!
It could be the reason for the Other's return. If Dawn played a significant role in the last Long Night and somehow held the Others in place, it's breaking could release them. And if so, maybe the total destruction of the sword was needed. But it could also be a different sword!
I think it could be the reason. If Dawn was the thing that kept another long night at bay, then it worked for 8000 years or so we are told. And that fact that it was probably destroyed inadvertently, setting events into motion that is now bringing on the Long Night 2.0, makes it very tragic. Doubly tragic, as two decent men were made to face off, probably based on actions of others, and one probably died, and the other lived, but seems haunted by the action.
Maybe Stark and Dayne were never meant to lift swords to each other, and the fact that they did, broke some part of a pact. Had Ned died and Arthur lived, would we truly be approaching a summer with out end?
And it has me thinking of Qhorin again. If Arthur survived and went north, and I by no means think so, because I think that he died at the toj, but if he did, I think it's likely that he is Qhorin. I need to look into the text and see where his death plays out in the timeline in regards to the Citadel's announcement of Winter! Could his defeat by a Stark have started something (and a broken Dawn) and his death by another of Stark blood put something else into motion?
If only we knew how long the Other's had been stirring?
Homage yes, but with a twist I'd say. Having the sword being non-reforgable would be in line with this, as the reforging is so imortant in LotR.
Yes, it makes sense that if a sword shatters into multiple pieces, those pieces cannot be made into a new sword. It might be what GRRM is going for. Your pointing out to me the multiple times "Dawn broke" or "Dawn was breaking" in the text, really is close to confirmation to me that Dawn did indeed break. I have some other idea's on how it is shown in the text, and I need to sit down and work it out. Just been too lazy.
I can almost seeing GRRM reading LotR, and scoffing as Narcil is reforged into Anduril. It makes sense that he would say, "Nope!!!", what is broken cannot be remade, and play it out is his more realistic version of a fantasy story.
It is hard to say, and I have little and less knowledge of Aboriginal languages or of how Martin could become aware of it. But for the sake of argument, the translation is "wife" but also "woman" which I found far more interesting! That made me think of
"I don't even know who my mother was," Jon said. "Some woman, no doubt. Most of them are." Jon I, GoT
But as I have nothing to base the accuarcy of this translation on, for all I know it could be fake. Just found that part very interesting!
It is interesting. I like the connection to Tyrion's words spoken to Jon, and it's Jon's first POV and the first time we really get a hint at who Tyrion Lannister is. I think there is major, major hinting in the early chapters of Game. It's almost overwhelming when you go through it line by line, slow and steady.
Considering Martin's love for windowless towers in his story, Lyanna spending a prolonged period in darkness is possible while still being in a tower. It would be the inversion of Ned's period in darkness - her being above ground, him being below, but both still in darkness.
I like this idea. It has a very dark fairy tale image to it!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
It had occurred to me that Ned might have known but for some reason I had assumed that he withheld the fact from Robert. I guess I'm constantly trying to put pieces into that place of things Ned is not telling Robert. But it does make sense that Robert would have known. That said, Robert is all id; he wasn't defending his lady love, he was attacking his enemy. There might have been smart ways to try to get the truth from Rhaegar (although battle might have made that attempt impossible) but Robert's rage was driving him.
Well, since we know that Ned seemed to have kept secrets and also broke some promises (or someone broke some promises to him), it's good to question everything. If Robert thought Lyanna was still alive and Rhaegar has her, it doesn't makes sense not to try and get some information out of Rhaegar aboout her location. Unless, Robert and Ned had found Lyanna before the battle of the Trident. She possibly could have been alive, but not well. Or she was dead already. Either way, Robert fought and killed Rhaegar that day, or so we are told, and I agree it was rage and "madness" that drove him.
Another area where I suspect that Ned understands something that Robert does not. But maybe, whatever the significance the crypts hold, maybe Robert has some understanding of that. Maybe I have it reversed, maybe Robert know something about those dark crypts that Ned did not. Maybe Robert intentionally drew Ned away from Winterfell because he understood its secrets. Without another hint or two at the nature of those secrets, either notion seems to make as much sense. Ned clearly has secrets from Robert, but the inverse could also be true. Robert may even know what Ned's secrets are, and more. I doubt it. Robert doesn't seem like a good vehicle for secrets. He is too direct and undisciplined. He would be my candidate for 'least likely to have a double identity.'
While the inverse would be interesting, that Robert felt like he was saving Ned from a destiny in the north, tied to the crypts, I just don't see Robert as being this insightful. However, he could be, and that will be a surprise waiting for us to discover.
I am inclined to think that if Ned felt like his destiny lay in the crypts, it is not necessarily something he is looking forward too.
Ned stopped at last and lifted the oil lantern. The crypt continued on into darkness ahead of them, but beyond this point the tombs were empty and unsealed; black holes waiting for their dead, waiting for him and his children. Ned did not like to think on that. AGOT-Eddard I
I don't think that Ned fears the death of himself or his children, he seems to stoic for that, but he must feel there is some sort of destiny those with Stark blood who are buried in the crypts are meant for. He is stoic about duty, but does not relish it, much as he is when he passes judgement on Gared and takes his head off. I would think that Lyanna might have been the true believer, but Ned understands there is a price to be paid in death for the power one has in life. And the Stark's are powerful, and Ned has wielded a lot of power in his life, especially during his time as Lord of Winterfell!
And maybe this type of bondage of the Stark's to the crypts is a sort of penance they are paying for something that happened long, long ago?
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Much of what is written is fantasizing about Rhaegar. The lance is a phallus, the thorns hidden in the crown symbolic of their troubled relationship when they run off together, Lyanna still had the crown with her when she died. What is the whole point of RLJ in the first place? Why is there an underlying assumption that Jon must have Targ/Stark blood?
I agree that this common thought that is tied to RLJ is both fantasy and romance driven. The idea of Rhaegar's lance/phallus piercing Lyanna's rose crown/vajaja nearly sends me into fit's of giggles every time I come across it in theory, because (partly because I am immature) it's so darn corny. And I don't think that is what GRRM is about. However, he might be about leading people to think this is the case, as he is tricksy and manipulative as an author.
A more logical and cold look at RLJ takes away all the love and romance, and put's it back into the realm of power and kidnapping and rape. If Jon ends up being the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar (which would really surprise me at this point) it will NOT be about love and romance gone wrong, it will be about force or rape or hate! Even more of a burden for Jon to bear!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Much of what is written is fantasizing about Rhaegar. The lance is a phallus, the thorns hidden in the crown symbolic of their troubled relationship when they run off together, Lyanna still had the crown with her when she died. What is the whole point of RLJ in the first place? Why is there an underlying assumption that Jon must have Targ/Stark blood?
I agree that this common thought that is tied to RLJ is both fantasy and romance driven. The idea of Rhaegar's lance/phallus piercing Lyanna's rose crown/vajaja nearly sends me into fit's of giggles every time I come across it in theory, because (partly because I am immature) it's so darn corny. And I don't think that is what GRRM is about. However, he might be about leading people to think this is the case, as he is tricksy and manipulative as an author.
A more logical and cold look at RLJ takes away all the love and romance, and put's it back into the realm of power and kidnapping and rape. If Jon ends up being the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar (which would really surprise me at this point) it will NOT be about love and romance gone wrong, it will be about force or rape or hate! Even more of a burden for Jon to bear!
Really, I'm not obsessed with Rhaegar's enormous lance. All the smiles die when Rhaegar bypasses his wife. She's the one who's been given insult and I think it's deliberate and calculated. Aerys is sending a message and compromising Rhaegar. Barristan doesn't seem to get that at all except that he does tell Dany that he doesn't think it was ever in Rhaegar to be happy... Lyanna or no Lyanna - and that he didn't know what was in Rhaegar's mind. Barristan is head over heals about Ashara; so the only thing that comes to mind is that she should have won the QLaB honor and instead she was dishonored (by Lyanna Stark). Ashara doesn't think she was dishonored or she wouldn't have turned to Stark. Selmy is so self-absorbed at this point; he doesn't know what's going on behind the scenes.
And so the cherry-picking when he tells Dany that Rhaegar loved his lady; but gets no credibility at all when he says that Dany could be Ashara's daughter.