1.16 Eddard III

Finally getting a chance to look at this essay, The History of the Night's Watch. Thanks for the link, Wraith .

Quotes from the essay will be in italics and bolded: 

Why is the realm guilty of ruining the Night's Watch? To explain this, we have to look at its ancient roots. In the beginning, the main purpose of the Night's Watch was to fend off the Others, as evidenced by the Wall itself.

Of course, this is an interesting questions. It's also reminds me of the chicken and the egg adage-which came first? 

If the realm, and by this I mean the Targaryen rule of the realm, is guilty of "ruining" the night's watch, which is to hold back the Others, perhaps it is the Targaryen's that want the Other's to return?

So, why did any king or lord or knight from south of there ever join the Night's Watch or support it? And this support is not to be taken lightly. Yoren mutters in A Clash of Kings that in earlier times, a black brother was welcomed at all tables in Westeros, an honored guest, and helped along his way. But why? What did anyone gain by supporting an order that simply protected the lands of some lords and kings far, far away?

As the essay points out, the Night's Watch has stood strong through the First Men, as well as the coming of the Andal's and the Rhoynar, but suddenly, in less than 300 years, the Night's Watch has crumbled. It not only stood strong, it thrived. I suppose there might be times when the Night's Watch numbers or strength wavered, but we are not told about it, so the assumption is that the Watch remained strong since it's inception.

It has stood through major warring between kingdoms and petty skirmishes between lords: it had stood strong and flourished, even, with the First Men, the Andals and the Rhoynar!

The King's Peace, therefore, forbids any war between the lords. All strives are now to be brought before the overlord, and in many cases, that means the king. He then decides, and his verdict is final. There is not only no need any more to fight over every mill you want to claim, it is also expressly forbidden. People who still fight are sent to the Wall, too, but as rebels. There's no honor in that. Accordingly, the number of nobles joining the Watch drops dramatically by factor 10, from 10% to 1%, and those 1% are rebels and other perpetrators in most cases and not interested in honor anymore. Since we have previously established that many nobles most likely brought some of their own people with them to take the black together with them, that means a sharp decline in lowborn brothers as well (although not as sharp as with nobles, since the Watch quickly adapts and starts to take in everything it can get, especially convicts). 

It does seem like the peace, meaning the lack of warring between separate kingdoms, did really hurt the numbers of men who joined the watch. No one is fighting, no one is losing, and no one is going to the wall. Except the dredges of society: the murderers, thieves, rapists, criminals, with a few of high born blood tossed into the mix. But those might mostly be bastard's, like Jon, or weak son's, like Samwell. There are the few men, like Jeor Mormont or Benjen Stark or Waymar Royce that don't fit into any category, but it's possible we are missing something important in their backstories.

Still, it does make a person wonder if an active smear campaign was a foot, causing people to belittle the idea of the Night's Watch. It seem's like even if numbers fell, the idea of the honor and duty of the Night's Watch should not crumble so quickly. Could Alysanne been responsible for such a campaign to not only weaken the wall, but to belittle the idea of the Watch, as well? Or could this have come later in the Targaryen rule?


A few of the things in the essay that I am not sure that I buy are:

I put my money on the fact that the castles were inhabited by origin. For example, one castle was made up of all those nobles who disliked the nobles of another castle. 

It's possible that the men were separated this way, but I doubt it. It seems like there would eventually be many more skirmishes between castles and commander's on the wall, and we are told of only a very few. If all you are doing is fighting each other, then you are not protecting the wall, and in turn holding back the threat of the Other's, which is the main purpose of the Watch, or so we are told.

I have now painted a vivid image of just how the glory of the old Night's Watch must have looked like, with many nobles engaged in an order-like institution, vying for honor and glory in endless rivalries and contests. This explains the high number of castles, the high number of brothers, the high regard the Watch had in Westeros.

It also explains their rapid decline after Aegon's Conquest. What killed the Night's Watch was the King's Peace.

Still, it's possible that this division of castles, commanders and men did happen. It's something I have never thought of before, so perhaps I will warm up to the idea eventually. I certainly agree that the stability of a united Westeros hurt the numbers of men going to the wall.

One little error that I noted:

Only some fifty years after Aegon's Conquest, this decline makes the Nightfort unsustainable, which had been the pride of the Watch for millennia. Only Good Queen Alysanne's jewels allow them to build a replacement castle, Queensgate, although there really is no reason for it.  

Alysanne actually paid for the castle to be built at Deep Lake. Queensgate was renamed for her visit, formerly known as Snowgate, but she did not build it, nor did the garrison from the Nightfort move to Queensgate. After Deep Lake was built, the Nightfort was abandoned and the garrison moved to Deep Lake. 

Not quite the correct course of events:

Accordingly, the Watch had too few men to sustain Brandon's Gift anymore. All hands were needed to defend the Wall, administer the supplies and fend off wildlings. Good Queen Alysanne had a solution for that as well and doubled the Gift, including areas formerly held by Umbers and Karstarks that sported some smallfolk living there that now paid its taxes in kind to the Watch for their support, as Bran recites so adoringly to Benjen. But the decline of the Watch and the reduction to three castles meant that the protection against wildlings, which hadn't been an issue in the old days (except when some strong leaders actually devised cunning plans), wavered. The people left the Gift, leaving the Watch with long leagues of unpopulated and useless land since they didn't have the people anymore to work it.

This implies that the watch was weakened to the point it could not support the original gift, with manpower already decreasing, and THEN Alysanne increased the work and land load of the watch with the New Gift, but I am under the impression it all happened at the same time. I guess I could be incorrect about that, but it seems like everything occurred concurrently. 

Certainly, the increased land, with what would become a drastic decrease in the amount of men going to the wall, did put extra strain on the watch, but it wasn't like, "oh, you are already weak, so I think I will give you a present to weaken you further". It took 300 years to get to the point the watch is at as our story opens, a combination of too much land and too few people (and perhaps a public smear campaign). Not one after the other, but in unison.

Certainly, Alysanne and Jaehaerys's edict's changed the Night's Watch. What is more interesting to me, is was it done to purposely weaken the Night's Watch and the Wall, or was this a byproduct of a plan not well thought out? Something that seems to be good in the short term, but has long term adverse effects!

The conspiracy theorist lover in me wonders, if the purpose of the Watch for 8,000 years (more or less) was to keep back the Other's, then in the 300 years after the Targaryen conquest of Westeros, the Wall and Watch are so weakened that the Other's are knocking on the door of invasion and the Long Night 2.0 is looming, did the Targaryen's purposefully weaken the wall, in a bid to allow the Other's a way back in? And if so, why would they do this?

Or as I have speculated for a long time, the Other's are coming as an answer to the threat of the Targaryen's? After all, what really did happen that caused the Doom of Valyria? Perhaps, it is the dragon blood that is upsetting the balance, although, one can argue the the season's are irregular in Westeros in response to something that occured 8,000 to 10,000 years ago. But do we know if the seasons were ever in balance in Planetos? We think so, but what is our proof?

Those Targaryen's have some crazy dreams, and those dreams seem to be interpreted differently by them all. And we know very little about the actual dreams, or about the interpretations, and we only speculate that some of the actions of the Targaryen's are in response to these dreams. Daena the Dreamer warning her family to leave Valyria before the Doom, why did Aegon feel he needed to conquer Westeros, why did Aerion Brightflame think drinking wildfire was a good plan, why was Baelor the Blessed so determined NOT to have a child with is sister, what the heck was Egg really trying to do at Summerhall, if Rhaegar was moved by prophecy, what was his ultimate goal. All probably having dreams, possibly similar or the same dream, but each having a different interpretation or action because of the dreams. 

I think it's pretty much agreed upon that Alysanne's actions were detrimental to the Night's Watch. What I am not at all sure of, it what her intent might have been. I hope we might get more clues about this in future books, but it's very possible, it was just an accident, a small decision, perhaps with well meant intent, with huge rippling effects. I think GRRM likes idea's like that!

One of Preston Jacob's video series' goes into the Dragonrider and Dragonhatching genes, and it really made me think of the Velaryon's in a different way. He of course focus's on other families, like the Hightowers, but I came away with a few thoughts on the Velaryon's. They are often mentioned in this story, but just hang out on the edges, in the shadows, not seeming to be terribly important. But that is probably why they are the "really" important one's, because we don't focus on them, but we are aware they exist. Barely!

I think it fit's GRRM's idea's if the "sabotage" was accidental, as you say, and not intentional. But still, I wonder about those Targaryen dreams and then what those dreams inspire people to do!

Old, for certain, and even admired. It was the Night's Watch that inspired the idea's that Visenya had for Aegon's kingsguard. So, I do think it likely that what ever downfall the Targaryen line brought to the Night's Watch happened as an unforeseen consequence.

Well, I still think the reason all three of them joined is not clear. There could be more that we don't know. Still, I agree that these are families that seem to feel there is "honor" in serving in the Night's Watch.

Sure. I like tinfoil, no matter what thread I find it in. I do have a major derailing problem. I was just spinning more Jaehaerys/Alysanne/Stark/Bael tinfoil on a Bran thread. I should start a thread of it's own for that.

As to the shield's in the shield hall, I admit I haven't paid attention to them in any detail at all!

And I don't see that Robert's 15 year reign did anything to correct or help the Night's Watch. It might have even made it worse. It might be Robert's reign that started the precedent for the people gaoled and held in dungeon's for all sorts of crimes to take the black.

Oh yes, the essay really put's the idea's together nicely.

Yes, angry. But it took a huge block of land away from them, land that would have been productive and taxable. It's almost like it was a punishment to the Stark's. What did they do to deserve this? The first night? Possible blood sacrifices? Maybe something else?

It doesn't make much sense, but the Targaryen's have done many odd things over the years, and people think that is related to their "dreams". It's easy for me to blame that on it. It's more likely they didn't see the big picture and how it was harming the realm.

I agree that the text implies that the Faceless Men, and people from Braavos, might have been responsible for the Doom. But I try to look at other possible options to see what might work as well.

As to GRRM and his statements, he is tricky and I barely trust him. But the season thing does make sense! But he also claimed it was related to magic, and I am not sure about that!


"Something something prophecy" made me Laugh Out Loud!

I am just wildly speculating about the dreams and possible outcomes. Those Targaryen's are very interesting, aren't they? I must say I have always questioned the why part of Aegon's conquest. It could have been greed for power, but I think it might be something else. What if he had dreams that told him he "needed" to conquer Westeros, for a greater good kind of idea, just as Daena "dreamed" about the Doom and got her family safety out of Valyria? 

I will shamefully admit I haven't read the Dunk and Egg novels, so I don't know or understand Aegon V's character much at all. Aerion might have been mad, just like we think of Aerys. But where they really mad and is it that simple? Baelor, I think there was more going on with him than just manipulation. He lusted after his sisters enough to lock them up and not have children with him, but I think he had dreams or read a prophecy that convinced him of this, and the Faith just smartly took advantage of his actions. Time will tell, perhaps?

It makes more sense that the poor outcome was an unintentional consequence, but I just like to question "what if it wasn't unintentional?". What could be the reason for destroying the wall? Destroying the Watch? Destroying what holds the Other's back? Unlikely, but possible!

Indeed. Velaryon's have always seemed more important than say the Celtigars who also have Valryian blood.

Ah the Hightowers and Daynes are interesting. Thanks to LmL I like to think that these families are descendants from the Great Empire of the Dawn. The group known as Valyrians were also part of this exile group.


Oh I agree, especially in Benjen's case, granted I don't know what it is. Still Northern's/Old God worshippers still believe in the honor of the Watch and I think that is important.


Rereads can bring us new ideas to explore and that is always fun. If you need help starting threads or moving stuff us friendly neighboorhood mods are here to help.

Also on the Shield Hall.

Hundreds of knights meant hundreds of shields. Hawks and eagles, dragons and griffins, suns and stags, wolves and wyverns, manticores, bulls, trees and flowers, harps, spears, crabs and krakens, red lions and golden lions and chequy lions, owls, lambs, maids and mermen, stallions, stars, buckets and buckles, flayed men and hanged men and burning men, axes, longswords, turtles, unicorns, bears, quills, spiders and snakes and scorpions, and a hundred other heraldic charges had adorned the Shieldhall walls, blazoned in more colors than any rainbow ever dreamed off.[1]


I'll continue my thoughts on this in another thead but I think you could be on the right track.