Post by shymaid on Feb 5, 2018 23:47:47 GMT
There's a bit more parentage to find in this chapter - imagery, possible parallels with other characters etc. I'll for the most part just use very short quotes, I assume most of us is well versed in this chapter and can follow!
Jon's love for swordplay! We have three candidates here I think:
- Robert; loves fighting, but favours this warhammer so I think that rules him out.
- Brandon; as we know he loved his sword(s).
- Arthur; and famously tied to his legendary white greatsword.
His training fight with Grenn: in the end Grenn is hamstrung, skull opened and has his swordhand cut off. If looking for echoes from the past, there are some thoughts that comes to mind. There will be the parallell between Jon, Pyp and Grenn with Arthur, Hightower and Whent. Here, we know Hightower got a hand wounded, but that was from an arrow. Another that comes to mind is Qhorin Halfhand.
However, there is one scene that strongly came to my mind. Jon is better than the other recruits by several orders of magnitude, he uses his advantage and likes to win. If there is a similarity between him and Arthur, does this fight reflect on the one fight Arthur had where we have more than just words and was clearly unfair? There could be a parallel to that fight with the Smiling Knight, and I've long found it interesting that this is one of the few stories we hear about that legendary Ser Arthur Dayne. So, was the Smiling Kningt hamstrung, got his skull opened, or his swordhand cut off? All three?
Brandon also has a similar fight with Baelish, where Brandon had the clear advantage.
Do we have any relevant leg injuries? I don't think so. The use of Lord Snow makes me think of how Jon calls Qhorin Lord on two occations, either because of his possition or because of how Qhorin has a lordly manner. Jon dislikes it, and Qhorin denies it both times – not a lordling and not a lord. This also comes up with Tyrion's time with JonCon, and JonCon IS a lord in hiding.
«... now he heard it everywhere» Not sure what to make of it, but it makes me go hmmm...
There is much to speculate on in the paragraph this comes in, but here I'll keep it to parentage.
The red and white image makes me think of the old gods and the weirwoods, combined with so many other Old Gods imagery surrounding Jon it makes me think he's all of the north. But if that is a First Men thing, the Daynes could still be in the picture as the stoney Dornish has kept themselves somewhat pure.
But also it reminds me about the imagery surrounding the KG at times, with bloodred stains on their cloaks. Granted, this might me something I have on my mind, and so see it everywhere... But if we run with it, and it is a vision of his uncle. Is it possible this is an image of his OTHER uncle? Ser Arthur Dayne? If so, another point in favour of Ashara as mother.
Over to his fight with the other boys:
Firstly, fighting ablilty could point to Arthur and Robert, though we don't have info on their hand-to-hand combat skills. I'm far from an expert on this, but I assume there is a difference there.
Secondly, I can't remember any 4 on 1 fights in the books that are relevant here. But there is the possibility that Arthur faced Ned and three more at the toj at the same time. It's the only thing I can think of.
Thirdly it makes me wonder about Jon's hight. Joff is taller we hear, even at the age of 12. We hear Mance is of medium hight, but do we get Jon's hight in comparison? I don't think so. Or if Jon keeps growing during the books, but personally I think it's probable he did. Anyway, if Robert is the babydaddy, he didn't get his hight. We don't know about Ned either, Brandon was a bit taller than Ned wasn't he? Arthur was tall enough to wield a greatsword, and Mance is able to do this as well. (Frankly I'm not sure how important that is for wielding greatswords...) Short stature could point to Howland, but it seems Jon is of a hight with Robb, so that isn't right either I think. Urg, I'll just give up on this line of thought for now!
His mother's unknown identity is brought up, including his dreams about her and how she could have been and that Ned always refused to talk to him about her. The last bit points to a huge grief for his mother, but is it because she died or because they were separated? Or is it simply that he doesn't want to say anything about her? Is it secrecy to keep him safe? I'm not sure what to conclude from this to be honest.
When he manages to break free he goes straight for Toad's throat and tries to strangle him. Is that a wolfish thing he's got from influence from Ghost? Will it tell us something else with later things in the story? He also picks Thorne up by his throat, and Qhorin is killed by a slash to the throat. How much throat-imagery does Jon have in his arc? It lends the mind to the Mithras legend; this imagery with Qhorin is pointed out many places, but it seems he has them other places as well. The last thing it makes me think of is Ned's reaction to Baelish outside the brothel – going for his throat with a knife. A red rage?
Donal interrupts with "a booming voice" – a wording that only has 8 mentionings in the books. Here, Ser Wendel (Manderly) talking to Ser Robar Royce, the KotLT, Mace Tyrell in Joff's wedding, Strongboar with Jamie in the Riverlands, Tyroshi sailors, one of Stannis' knights at CB, Lord Grafton in Winds sample Alayne I. Of these I only see the KotLT as relevant to Jon.
Jon's descriptions of the Wall is interesting indeed! In fact it really reminds me of Dorne!
The Wall is usually pale grey, but somethimes «alive with light, a collossal blue-white cliff...», «a pale blue line» - Dawn! «Immense and unbroken» - Dorne! «This is the end of the world» The other end of the world is down south in Dorne. Of course this makes me think of Arthur, both in ALJ termes and with my favorite tinfoil!
This part make take notice of that blanket of snow falling. As it lands near them, is that a hint that both of them are bastards? Both are hidden under a blanket so no one knows their true parentage? Jon hidden as a Snow, and Tyrion hidden as a Lannister? I know Tyrion wouldn't be a Snow if he was a bastard, but here in the north Snow = bastard in my mind.
Jon's sleeping in Hardin's tower. I've had a little mania of looking up everything after new year, so I wondered what the name Hardin might entail. Sadly I haven't found something that stands out to me yet, possibly a Hardin that died during the American-Mexican war and was lauded as a great hero. But I'm not sure. Does anyone have any ideas?
Anyway, let's get back to the text!
Considering Ned's later feverdream, is this a hint of Jon's tower of birth? The first part makes me think of Moat Cailin, but I'm far from covinced that Jon's mother (whoever she was) was there. Other broken towers we have is of course the one in Winterfell, I guess Queenscrown could be on this list. Summerhall would have several, but I doubt that is the place. Anywhere else?
That's all I got on parentage in this round.
Lastly I will make a point that was promised in Tyrion II not long ago. There was a discussion on Jon actually being a bully or not, and concerning Donal's intervening.
So, we see in this chapter that Jon beats all the other boys and he rather enjoys it. And I don't have a problem with Donal straightening him out! That was clearly needed!
In the previous discussion I had two peeves:
1) I don't actually see Jon as a bully here. That could be as to how I define a bully: they have to intentionally do harm. And that I don't see Jon doing. To me he basically just doesn't think things through, and is too self absorbed to try seeing this from the other boy's POV. He makes efforts to change that the very same night, so that doesn't count as a bully in my book. I do get that the other boys could be seeing it as bullying, just to make that clear. My point is that the situation was easy to turn around. Real bullying is harder to stop imo.
2) That Donal doesn't have a horse in this race. That is something I really disagree with.
Firstly, I doubt the Watch has great tolerance for situations that can end up in them loosing men where it's not needed. They might not get the best recruits, but they need every hand they can get. Letting a situation like this get out of hand is a bad move no matter who the involved are.
Secondly, like it or not, Jon is not a normal recruit. With Waymar we see a lordling getting high position where it's not really earned. Mormont knows he can read, all know he can fight, he has about the same education to the heir to Winterfell. That is a valuable recruit, and not to be wasted in useless infighting.
Thirdly, his bloodties to both Benjen and Ned. I highly doubt Benjen would not react strongly if his nephew was killed by another recruit, and those that should have interviened in the situation would probably pay. Also, it's the son of the Lord of Winterfell, and the Watch sorely needs his help. Letting his son get killed like this would not go down well! And neither with his heir, Robb.
So I do think Donal had a horse in this race as well, though not in the direct sense. In all three points I think he would hear it if Jon or one of the other boys died, and it was preventable. And this goes for the other men in higher positions too.
«The courtyard rang to the song of swords»
Jon's love for swordplay! We have three candidates here I think:
- Robert; loves fighting, but favours this warhammer so I think that rules him out.
- Brandon; as we know he loved his sword(s).
- Arthur; and famously tied to his legendary white greatsword.
His training fight with Grenn: in the end Grenn is hamstrung, skull opened and has his swordhand cut off. If looking for echoes from the past, there are some thoughts that comes to mind. There will be the parallell between Jon, Pyp and Grenn with Arthur, Hightower and Whent. Here, we know Hightower got a hand wounded, but that was from an arrow. Another that comes to mind is Qhorin Halfhand.
However, there is one scene that strongly came to my mind. Jon is better than the other recruits by several orders of magnitude, he uses his advantage and likes to win. If there is a similarity between him and Arthur, does this fight reflect on the one fight Arthur had where we have more than just words and was clearly unfair? There could be a parallel to that fight with the Smiling Knight, and I've long found it interesting that this is one of the few stories we hear about that legendary Ser Arthur Dayne. So, was the Smiling Kningt hamstrung, got his skull opened, or his swordhand cut off? All three?
Brandon also has a similar fight with Baelish, where Brandon had the clear advantage.
«Are you legs hurting, Lord Snow?»
Do we have any relevant leg injuries? I don't think so. The use of Lord Snow makes me think of how Jon calls Qhorin Lord on two occations, either because of his possition or because of how Qhorin has a lordly manner. Jon dislikes it, and Qhorin denies it both times – not a lordling and not a lord. This also comes up with Tyrion's time with JonCon, and JonCon IS a lord in hiding.
«... now he heard it everywhere» Not sure what to make of it, but it makes me go hmmm...
«He saw Ben Stark lying dead, his blood red on the snow.»
There is much to speculate on in the paragraph this comes in, but here I'll keep it to parentage.
The red and white image makes me think of the old gods and the weirwoods, combined with so many other Old Gods imagery surrounding Jon it makes me think he's all of the north. But if that is a First Men thing, the Daynes could still be in the picture as the stoney Dornish has kept themselves somewhat pure.
But also it reminds me about the imagery surrounding the KG at times, with bloodred stains on their cloaks. Granted, this might me something I have on my mind, and so see it everywhere... But if we run with it, and it is a vision of his uncle. Is it possible this is an image of his OTHER uncle? Ser Arthur Dayne? If so, another point in favour of Ashara as mother.
Over to his fight with the other boys:
«All four of them were bigger than he was, but they did not scare him. He'd beaten every one of them in the yard.»
Firstly, fighting ablilty could point to Arthur and Robert, though we don't have info on their hand-to-hand combat skills. I'm far from an expert on this, but I assume there is a difference there.
Secondly, I can't remember any 4 on 1 fights in the books that are relevant here. But there is the possibility that Arthur faced Ned and three more at the toj at the same time. It's the only thing I can think of.
Thirdly it makes me wonder about Jon's hight. Joff is taller we hear, even at the age of 12. We hear Mance is of medium hight, but do we get Jon's hight in comparison? I don't think so. Or if Jon keeps growing during the books, but personally I think it's probable he did. Anyway, if Robert is the babydaddy, he didn't get his hight. We don't know about Ned either, Brandon was a bit taller than Ned wasn't he? Arthur was tall enough to wield a greatsword, and Mance is able to do this as well. (Frankly I'm not sure how important that is for wielding greatswords...) Short stature could point to Howland, but it seems Jon is of a hight with Robb, so that isn't right either I think. Urg, I'll just give up on this line of thought for now!
His mother's unknown identity is brought up, including his dreams about her and how she could have been and that Ned always refused to talk to him about her. The last bit points to a huge grief for his mother, but is it because she died or because they were separated? Or is it simply that he doesn't want to say anything about her? Is it secrecy to keep him safe? I'm not sure what to conclude from this to be honest.
When he manages to break free he goes straight for Toad's throat and tries to strangle him. Is that a wolfish thing he's got from influence from Ghost? Will it tell us something else with later things in the story? He also picks Thorne up by his throat, and Qhorin is killed by a slash to the throat. How much throat-imagery does Jon have in his arc? It lends the mind to the Mithras legend; this imagery with Qhorin is pointed out many places, but it seems he has them other places as well. The last thing it makes me think of is Ned's reaction to Baelish outside the brothel – going for his throat with a knife. A red rage?
Donal interrupts with "a booming voice" – a wording that only has 8 mentionings in the books. Here, Ser Wendel (Manderly) talking to Ser Robar Royce, the KotLT, Mace Tyrell in Joff's wedding, Strongboar with Jamie in the Riverlands, Tyroshi sailors, one of Stannis' knights at CB, Lord Grafton in Winds sample Alayne I. Of these I only see the KotLT as relevant to Jon.
Jon's descriptions of the Wall is interesting indeed! In fact it really reminds me of Dorne!
The Wall is usually pale grey, but somethimes «alive with light, a collossal blue-white cliff...», «a pale blue line» - Dawn! «Immense and unbroken» - Dorne! «This is the end of the world» The other end of the world is down south in Dorne. Of course this makes me think of Arthur, both in ALJ termes and with my favorite tinfoil!
Jon was hungry too, so he fell in beside Lannister and slowed his pace to match the dwarf's awkward, waddling steps. The wind was rising, and they could hear the old wooden buildings creaking around them, and in the distance a heavy shutter banging, over and over, forgotten. Once there was a muffled thump as a blanket of snow slid from a roof and landed near them.
This part make take notice of that blanket of snow falling. As it lands near them, is that a hint that both of them are bastards? Both are hidden under a blanket so no one knows their true parentage? Jon hidden as a Snow, and Tyrion hidden as a Lannister? I know Tyrion wouldn't be a Snow if he was a bastard, but here in the north Snow = bastard in my mind.
Jon's sleeping in Hardin's tower. I've had a little mania of looking up everything after new year, so I wondered what the name Hardin might entail. Sadly I haven't found something that stands out to me yet, possibly a Hardin that died during the American-Mexican war and was lauded as a great hero. But I'm not sure. Does anyone have any ideas?
Anyway, let's get back to the text!
"That's the one with the broken battlement, no? Shattered stone in the yard below, and a lean to it like our noble king Robert after a long night's drinking? I thought all those buildings had been abandoned."
Jon shrugged. "No one cares where you sleep. Most of the old keeps are empty, you can pick any cell you want." Once Castle Black had housed five thousand fighting men with all their horses and servants and weapons. Now it was home to a tenth that number, and parts of it were falling into ruin.
Tyrion Lannister's laughter steamed in the cold air. "I'll be sure to tell your father to arrest more stonemasons, before your tower collapses."
Jon shrugged. "No one cares where you sleep. Most of the old keeps are empty, you can pick any cell you want." Once Castle Black had housed five thousand fighting men with all their horses and servants and weapons. Now it was home to a tenth that number, and parts of it were falling into ruin.
Tyrion Lannister's laughter steamed in the cold air. "I'll be sure to tell your father to arrest more stonemasons, before your tower collapses."
Considering Ned's later feverdream, is this a hint of Jon's tower of birth? The first part makes me think of Moat Cailin, but I'm far from covinced that Jon's mother (whoever she was) was there. Other broken towers we have is of course the one in Winterfell, I guess Queenscrown could be on this list. Summerhall would have several, but I doubt that is the place. Anywhere else?
That's all I got on parentage in this round.
Lastly I will make a point that was promised in Tyrion II not long ago. There was a discussion on Jon actually being a bully or not, and concerning Donal's intervening.
So, we see in this chapter that Jon beats all the other boys and he rather enjoys it. And I don't have a problem with Donal straightening him out! That was clearly needed!
In the previous discussion I had two peeves:
1) I don't actually see Jon as a bully here. That could be as to how I define a bully: they have to intentionally do harm. And that I don't see Jon doing. To me he basically just doesn't think things through, and is too self absorbed to try seeing this from the other boy's POV. He makes efforts to change that the very same night, so that doesn't count as a bully in my book. I do get that the other boys could be seeing it as bullying, just to make that clear. My point is that the situation was easy to turn around. Real bullying is harder to stop imo.
2) That Donal doesn't have a horse in this race. That is something I really disagree with.
Firstly, I doubt the Watch has great tolerance for situations that can end up in them loosing men where it's not needed. They might not get the best recruits, but they need every hand they can get. Letting a situation like this get out of hand is a bad move no matter who the involved are.
Secondly, like it or not, Jon is not a normal recruit. With Waymar we see a lordling getting high position where it's not really earned. Mormont knows he can read, all know he can fight, he has about the same education to the heir to Winterfell. That is a valuable recruit, and not to be wasted in useless infighting.
Thirdly, his bloodties to both Benjen and Ned. I highly doubt Benjen would not react strongly if his nephew was killed by another recruit, and those that should have interviened in the situation would probably pay. Also, it's the son of the Lord of Winterfell, and the Watch sorely needs his help. Letting his son get killed like this would not go down well! And neither with his heir, Robb.
So I do think Donal had a horse in this race as well, though not in the direct sense. In all three points I think he would hear it if Jon or one of the other boys died, and it was preventable. And this goes for the other men in higher positions too.