1. 19 Jon III

It's fine. I just have to help out with the heavier chores for a bit, and time and energy gets zapped. So I might miss some posts right now.


Haha, I know. Still, the handprint is on my face for not thinking of the obvious...


Well, Meera's story would tell it that way as it's in fairytale style. Put yourself in the squire's position: a girl comes out shouting to let her father's bannerman be, would you fight her? If they did and/or continued to harass the crannogman, it could mean (severe) punishment later.
Fighting Benjen who is younger is one thing, fighting three at once who could be at her own age or older is quite another. In story we only see the best fight several opponents at once in the training yard. The thought of a girl training in secret, possibly without proper equipment, would be able to do that is frankly a bit far fetched to me.

As for Arya, I think there's several reasons for getting her an instructor. Micha's fate is one of those of course, but what is automatically included in proper training is the ability for real assesment of situation and knowing what a "real" fight is. Lyanna is part of that conversation, and there are several hints that she could've been hurt in non-birthing ways during her absence.


Yup...


Could be. I have to admit I resist the thought of Robert being the father, as I really hate the idea. Trying to rectify it, but it's hard! And the timing is off imo.
But I do find it ironing that the first thing I think of is Targaryen bastards, birthed by the heir...


Well, to me rabbits and hares are fertility symbols. Quick and agile, but anything but strong and brave! They are more prone to run and hide. But are there many of them in Jon's arc? Can't remember it if that's the case.


Haha, one can hope! Right now it's stuck in my head...


It didn't come totally out of the blue, but I still think he wouldn't have asked at that point if not for the wine. And if not for the Handship and all that BS, perhaps Ned and/or Benjen would've had a real conversation about life on the Wall with him.


Nope, that is definitely tequila! The only thing I've ever drunk that actually made me think I was dying. And it was taking too long...

I haven't sat down and really looked at this yet. So far my impression is that they heard it in that form from Howland from an early age, possibly he knew the story would rare it's ugly head again and wanted his kids to "be ready" and know the story. The easiest way to do that is by fairytales. But as you say, we don't have the decoder key.

On Rhaegar's song; we hear again and again that all women start bawling when he sings it, so I don't have a problem with her shedding a couple of tears on that. (I do have a problem with that being a sign that she looooooved him!  Just had to get that off my chest... I feel better now!) It is a possibility that there was another reason, but I doubt it at the moment. And while many a betrothed would cry and pull out her hair at the sight of Robert in his cups and engrossed in his flirting game, Lyanna would probably not do that. I think she'd react in anger, or start flirting herself or something. And as you say, there is no good reason for Howland to lie as far as I can see. Unless he wants to lead whoever down a false track of what happened back then, which is certainly possible.

I really have no idea, as you can see.


Haha, many a times I've considered that Lyanna died with her maidenhead intact. And it's not a thought I've really put down! It's still on my table.


Give me a timeline that works (without going to REJ, as I seriously doubt that!) and a suitable female that can explain her Targaryen features and obvoius ties, and we're good to go! I have few problems with Robert being her father with the exeption of the aforementioned points.


Well, the tower is later nicknamed Harlot's Tower...


Haha, I think most who ventures into tequila-land is hurt! I stay away from all drinks based on that! Last time I had one... well, let's just say I try to forget the snippets I do remember...

Thanks! I'd actually read that one before, and it's interesting for sure. I don't buy all of it, but some speculations are valid.

Thank you for the link. I am not sure if I have seen this before or not, but it doesn't sound familiar. I will have to give it a good read over!  I have seen some theories from cantuse but don't think this is one of the ones I have read.

As I don't think Euron is the 3EC, I won't bind myself in that aspect. For Howland having a feather in that camp, I'm not sure. It seems to be something that visits people who are dying, and we don't get that. He could be acting on "instructions" given at the God's Eye still, as I think he did before and during the Rebellion.


Or his iron tones! Or the combination of all! Makes me wonder how many men was thinking "Oh, cry me fooking river!" everytime Rhaegar started that song!
It's one of the points that irritates me to no end in the RLJ camp! Basically ignoring what we do learn of the Prince of Silverstrings.


Me neither, but I'm far from convinced it was in the best interest for the Starks OR any of the other prominent families taking a leading role in the rebellion.


Oh, gods! Thanks for THAT image... A pregnant Ned...


That is true. We only know her age is tied to Jon's age. Shifting one means shifting the other. But that also gives us a limit, including Dany being a Harrenhal baby. I refuse to believe he is that much older than Robb!


It's possible, but here I'm reminded of the locker Renly showed Ned with the miniature of Margaery. For someone who didn't know Lyanna (or her looks) very well, the coloring could be one of the things that reminded of Lyanna. Ned who knew his sister was not fooled for a second in that. So I do think that is a clue for Lyanna's coloring, but it might not be the same color as Ned and Brandon etc. Another shade of brown could in the picture, including a reddish one, but not blond imo.


And keep us posted I don't doubt!

I do think she has Targaryen blood though, so Dayne is out in my book, and Hightower I think would be too far back in history if she'd be of the line from the Targ princess after the Dance.


Well, we do see the Watch taking in women in dire need, but that is under Jon's command. Would Lord Commander Qorgyle? Hard to say!
My tower-quest is very much in it's infant stage still, but here are some thoughts I have on it.
First off, I'm not sure to look for the tower in the south or the north to be honest. In the south, the best option is actually at Harrenhal imo with the towers ruined by Aegon I. It's the wording of "tower long fallen" I fall back on every time, as I think it tells us that it fell before Ned was born. Summerhall is also in the game, while not at the start of the RR of course, with the fighting taking place there. Other than these, I'm not sure. In the north, good options is at Winterfell, this one and at Moat Cailin, as we've discussed earlier.
But one thing gives me pause, in both parts of the continent. Semantick nitpicking brings up the difference of broken and fallen. A search told me the only fallen towers mentioned elsewhere (that is, apart from Ned's dream) in Westeros is actually at the Nightfort. Any other is over in Essos in whole cities long fallen. It's something I hadn't considered at all, and indeed it gives me pause to say the least! Truly a wtf moment! But i have no idea what to make of it as of yet. (Maybe it's something I really should keep to myself and bring it out in some really shiny tinfoil theory, but... )

First of all, the text does tell us Dany's age is 13 when she is married to Drogo and has just turned 14 when she finds out she is pregnant. But she could very well have been mislead her whole life, so we can't trust that. We also get weird ages from Dany, as in her first POV of Clash, she thinks of herself as 14, and in her second POV she thinks of herself as 15. I mean how the hell long have they been wandering in the red waste?

As to GRRM, he is very shifty in his answers. He links Dany's age to Jon's but it's vague. "Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts". GRRM-SSM But I have wondered if the person we know of as Dany is actually an impostor that has been placed in the identity of Daenerys Targaryen, then perhaps the Dany GRRM refer's to is the actual Daenerys, and not who ever Dany is. Also, he could really come back and say "but I said thereabouts".

GRRM has given is this information, with one thing being based on the other, and perhaps both things being incorrect. I could be wrong, but I though this answer was given in the wake of all of the questions raised after Alfie Allen's "star wars" reveal idea and Preston Jacobs theory that Jon and Dany were twins.

Still, GRRM could be telling some of the truth, and Jon and Dany are both older than we think they are, but I can't see it being by more than a year. That would be hard to pull off.


Well, Margaery has light brown hair, which is certainly different than dark brown. But also different that red or blond. One thing GRRM didn't seem to give his world is portraits! WTH??? We get the one little miniature image of Marg, but that's it. But Ned might not have been looking at coloring at all with his denial, he might have been looking only at features. I do think red is a possibility, as I think the Stark's must carry a red gene. At least that is how it would work in real world genetics, but GRRM doesn't need to follow those. He can make up his own genetic code.


This image of Rhaegar, Lyanna and Brandon or Ned at Harrenhal is one of the older ones that I know of, and interestingly, Lyanna's hair looks to be a shade of reddish brown. I know this is an artists interpretation, but it still stands out to me. Possibly a clue, possibly not!
Well, I rather like the idea of Robert bagging Rhaella but it's hard to imagine where they would have crossed paths at. But perhaps Rhaella could have not gone to Dragonstone as Jaime seems to think, leaving her whereabouts a bit of a mystery. Maybe her final FU to Aerys was her bagging the man who was tearing Aerys reign apart! Two ships in the night, sort of thing.

However, I am not actually sure that Dany has to have Targaryen blood, and I would find that one of the most twisted things that GRRM did with his story is given the mother of dragon's no Targaryen blood, and absolutely no claim to the Targaryen throne in the way that Dany thinks she has claim to the throne. We know that other people from Valyria had power over dragons, and some of those people have ancestor's, I am sure. In whore houses in Lys and Braavos and other places. Illyrio found his Valyrian looking wife in a pillow house in Lys. Still, Dany has a strong connection to Rhaegar in her dreams so it's hard to imagine she is not connected to him somehow.

Robert being Dany's father is very shiny tinfoil!


Well, if you are looking for a specific phrase, then you might not be able to steer away from the Nightfort. I do think the Nightfort is important.

But the text does give us two hints at towers that are partly fallen, and both are at Winterfell.

His favorite haunt was the broken tower. Once it had been a watchtower, the tallest in Winterfell. A long time ago, a hundred years before even his father had been born, a lightning strike had set it afire. The top third of the structure had collapsed inward, and the tower had never been rebuilt. Sometimes his father sent ratters into the base of the tower, to clean out the nests they always found among the jumble of fallen stones and charred and rotten beams. But no one ever got up to the jagged top of the structure now except for Bran and the crows. AGOT-Bran II

The broken tower, is still technically standing but the top third of the tower has fallen inwards. The tower that Ned neither seems willing to repair or have torn down. Why?


The First Keep, after the fire, has a whole side that has fallen, exposing the rooms of the tower to the naked eye.

If you look for "tower long fallen" in quotes, you will only find the link to Ned's fever dream. If there was even one other link to this in the text besides Ned's fever dream, I would say the search needs to be that specific, but I don't think it can be with only one connection.

If you look for tower long fallen as separate words, you get Ned's fever dream, Bran's thoughts on the broken tower (also called the burned tower), Dany's view of the tower of the warlock's in Qarth, but I think this is only fallen roof tiles, and Sansa's memories of Winterfell while she is building her snow castle at the Eyrie, except what has fallen the passage is branches, not stones, so I can't really count this.

When I find tower fallen that I am directed to Bran's view of the Nightfort, and several other's as well. But it might be this connection to the Nightfort. I have joked before that blue flower growing from a chink in the wall could very well be Lyanna's body at the wall, and not in the crypts like we all assume. But that idea of that blue flower in the wall only comes to us from Dany's House of the Undying/Shade of the Evening induced visions.

As I am sure you already looked at all of these, that didn't help your puzzle at all! 



Good luck!

I do think it differs from the real world, but he must borrow some ideas. Which, I haven't a clue.

I was always curious if Renly ever showed that picture of Margaery to Robert, and if so, did Robert see any resemblance. One thing that has always struck me about what Lyanna could have looked like is that Ned thinks Arya is like Lyanna, "you even look like her". Which tells me that Ned mostly recognizes Lyanna's personality in Arya, but also her looks,  but almost as an after thought. We know that Arya is dark haired and grey eyed and horse faced (long faced). So, is this a description of Lyanna, as well as Arya?

Because if it is, then why doesn't Robert, who was supposedly so in love with Lyanna that he pines for her still, not seem to even hint that he see's Lyanna in Arya. We never get the impression during that scene at Darry, when Arya (and Nymeria-by-proxy) are placed before the king and queen, that Robert even once might think that Arya is like Lyanna. It rather confuses me! Does Arya look like Lyanna, or not?


I am not sure that anyone really knows what it takes to hatch a dragon. Dany actually doing so might be dumb luck, and if someone finds someone with this power in a pillow house, that might be dumb luck, too!

As to Rhaegar, since we really only can guess at what he might have been looking for, or trying to accomplish, it's hard to say. We have Aemon's thoughts on Rhaegar's possible actions, but we have no confirmation.

A year does seem like a long time to hide, and I think you could only do such a thing if you had help. But even Bran and Rickon were able to hide and fool Theon and his men. And even Ramsay, who seems to have some inner knowledge of what is going on, didn't seem to know this.

I don't think  Lyanna was at Winterfell the whole time, but I do think she made it back there at some point. Lyanna was more than likely in several places over the course of a year or more. If Ashara was not nailed to the floor in Dorne, then the same could be said for Lyanna. Ironically, it's just a "feeling" that I have that Lyanna was back at Winterfell at some point. I think she was there when Ned was home to call his banners, but whether she arrived there with him, or on her own, I can't say. I am certainly prepared to be very wrong about this. If the text has implied that Lyanna was missing in the south (of Winterfell) then I think we should consider the possibility that she was actually north (of Winterfell), which doesn't leave many places before one arrives at the wall. Or north of the wall!


Well, the wolfs den is interesting, and is certainly linked to King Jon Stark. How that might link to Lyanna or Jon Snow, I don't know. It could be trying to mislead us the same way that the Bael Tale might be!

As for one tower that at least trigger's Ned's thoughts of a "tower long fallen" is the tower of joy in Dorne. As to another tower being in the south, this rendering of the toj might be a clue.



The tower of joy page shows these two images for the tower of joy, and claims that the bottom image, the grey tower in the snowy mountains, is the original image, and the top image, with a red tower in the red mountains of Dorne, was altered in color. GRRM takes a great deal of interest and attention in the artwork for his books and calendar's and some official artwork. If the grey tower in the snowy mountains is the original image, then what could it be telling us? Perhaps it is a clue to the tower that you are looking for! Or not! I don't know if the report on the images is true. Does anyone know if this is accurate or not?

You will. Just keep looking and it will fall into place someday!