1.29: Sansa II

Not going to lie, I struggled with this chapter, which I do when I am in Sansa's POV. Sansa had yellow silk curtains to help make her world look gold, and I wish I had some magic curtains during the reading of this chapter to help me! I actually took a nap halfway through this chapter!


Sansa doesn't seem particularly drawn to any of the kingsguard in this chapter, though. She notes Jaime is dressed in his gold armor and has a gold sword**, and mentions a few of the others, but with no focus. Interestingly, she is drawn to two competitor's in the joust, Sander Clegane and Loras Tyrell. While only one of them is a knight, they will both eventually wear a kingsguard cloak. Balon Swann also get's a mention, although it is just in passing, but he to will wear a white cloak. She is drawn to flashy armor and presentation, and that is why Loras stands out to her, as well as his handsomeness. Do we have anyone at Harrenhal that became a kingsguard later in our story? Borus Blount is from a house with a porcupine on his family sigil, and he might be our porcupine knight from Harrenhal. I am not sure how that could relate between Sansa and Lyanna, besides it was someone they had some focus on at one tourney and who later was named to the kingsguard. I don't think Boros Blount is either handsome or charming.

I wonder if since Aerys would not let Jaime compete at Harrenhal, that any tourney he has rode in since that time he has always wore his gold armor. It seems like a subtle snub to a dead Aerys, to me. Even to a living Robert, that he would not not match his brother's in wearing the white armor of their brotherhood.

Sansa is drawn to the flash, and is quite snobbish about the armor of Jory, Harwin and Alyn, Winterfell's representation in this tourney. Septa Mordane is a snob also, so perhaps she was not the best teacher for Sansa. Interestingly, Sansa states that Lothar Brune's armor was as "drab" as Jory's, rather snobbishly, but it is Lothar Brune who saves Sansa from rape at the hands of Marillion. I wonder if by that point in the story Sansa has come to realize it is not how ornate your armor is that makes you a decent warrior?

**If this is the same sword that Jaime used to kill Aerys, doesn't that just seem like an obvious threat in Robert's direction???
 
Also, why does Jaime get to wear his Lannister armor. That also seems like a snub at the current king! I guess Jaime Lannister just gets to do what ever the fook he wants!


Jeyne Poole is interesting here, because we know that her future holds pretending to be Arya Stark, so I guess it could follow that Jeyne is the one we should look to for clues of Lyanna, who is likened to Arya. But would our wolf blooded Lyanna get sick and have to leave the tourney over a death? Maybe. IF she felt like she was responsible for that death. It is possible that Ser Hugh died because Ned was hoping to get information from him. Although, knowing that it was Lysa and Littlefinger that were ultimately responsible for the death of Jon Arryn, it doesn't really make sense that Cersei would want the Mountain to kill Ser Hugh. So, it could have been that the Mountain is an ass and just enjoys killing people and took his chance when he say it, as the Hound says. Or I am wondering if Littlefinger perhaps pointed the Mountain in Ser Hugh's direction, knowing that this would appear like it was part of a Lannister plot?

If Jeyne is a clue to Lyanna at Harrenhal, then Lyanna ducked out early, was either ill or pretended to be ill. If Lyanna was pretending to be ill, why? If Lyanna was really ill, why? Could she have already been with child? If so, that makes it seem like Rhaegar could not be the father.

However, the connection you make to Jeyne being frightened of a prince but becoming enamored of a handsome Beric Dondarrion with his purple lightening bolt on his banner and starry cloak, then that does hint perhaps at Lyanna becoming enamored with Ser Arthur Dayne. The purple and the star imagery work, any way. So, frightened of Rhaegar but drawn to Arthur! Why be frightened of Rhaegar. Perhaps she was frightened of Aerys? That makes a bit more sense, but still we have no reason to know why. Something to ponder for certain.

Jeyne could also be a stand in for Ashara Dayne. That is one of the few other female names that we have at the tourney, besides Elia.

I did have a thought while reading your post, if possibly Lyanna might have had a friend/household companion from Winterfell with her at Harrenhal, which would mirror Sansa and Jeyne. We don't have any named woman to apply to that role except for Wylla. Wylla is a mystery. Ned tells Robert she is Jon's mother, and Edric also agree's that Wylla was Jon's mother as well as his own wet nurse. I could see role as wet nurse in play for a woman who perhaps doesn't fit the catagory of lowborn or highborn. I guess the Fisher's Daughter (whom I am positive is a false identity for someone else in the story) could have been Lyanna's companion at Harrenhal.


Agreed! And Jeyne doesn't return for the second day of jousting, and Arya attends neither day, so what could that also imply about Lyanna? We know she was at the Harrenhal jousting events.

Also, this thought of behaving well at tournaments makes me think of Septa Mordane just getting flat out drunk enough to pass out on a table, and then Sansa and the Hound just leave her there. Lucky the woman didn't get raped by a drunk Robert in the night. Every time I read of the septa passed out and delicately snoring I literally laugh out loud! And they left her there!  That is not good drinking companion etiquette!!!


Ah, Loras, lovely Loras, who gifts Sansa a red rose that she cherishes and he can't be bothered to remember. Loras who is dressed in flashy armor with embossed flowes (we are not told the color in this chapter, but in Eddard VII, I think it is noted that Loras has blue sapphires on his silver armor) Blue on silver armor gifting a Stark maid with a red rose is almost a polar opposite of a man in black and red (rubies) armor who gifts a blue rose to a Stark maid. So, is this some odd parallel riddle we are meant to decipher, or is it the more obvious inversion? I don't know. We don't know a reason for Rhaegar to give Lyanna the rose crown, but Loras almost mindlessly gives this same due to Sansa. But as was pointed out in an earlier thread, Rhaegar "urged" his horse toward Lyanna, so Rhaegar definitely shows some intent that Loras lacks. I am truly confused about what it all could mean.

But Sansa is certainly enamored, but she already was a little crushy about Loras. This could very well indicate Rhaegar and Lyanna, with her having a crush on the crown prince. But what was Rhaegar's intent in this case. Was it mindless? Was he trying to draw Lyanna's attention? Draw her families attention? Make some one else jealous? Could Elia have been jealous? Was Renly jealous that Loras gave Sansa a red rose instead of the white rose he gave to all the other girls. If Loras is telling us something about Rhaegar, could it be that Rhaegar was gay? Or at least swung both ways? That makes me feel a bit better for JonCon, who is obviously still in love with Rhaegar. If Rhaegar was gay, who was his lover? SAD comes to mind but with no proof of anything to back that up, and the only connection being that Rhaegar and Arthur were said to be friends and spent time together, just as Renly and Loras do. Which isn't much to go on, but really, we don't get much more than that about Renly and Loras. 

I also doubt that Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone would be easy to forget if he gifted a girl with the tourney champion's laurel! So I doubt Lyanna forgot him, or barely paid any attention to this. But perhaps she didn't seem the realize the fire that all of this was lighting?


Littlefinger is very creepy here. And I think Sansa is uneasy. I don't give her much credit for being aware of peoples true motives, but when she first meets him, she notes:


I had never paid attention to this before but it struck me as oddly aware. Which is unlike how Sansa seems to view the rest of this day and night. If she is uneasy about Littlefinger, she doesn't seem to file that knowledge away for the future.


Yes, this queen of beauty wording is interesting. As you say, we get it from LF in talking about Cat, and in Ned thinking about how Rhaegar crowning Lyanna. So, what could this all mean? I'm just typing as I think so forgive me if it all sounds crazy.

Littlefinger is obsessed with Catelyn. He grew up with her and grew to love her. He tried to fight a battle with Brandon for Cat's hand (I guess). He believes that she gave him her maidenhead, even though we know it was his fever and wound and Lysa telling us that she snuck into his bed, causing him to think he had sex with Cat while it was really Lysa.

So, how could that translate to Lyanna and Rhaegar? A parallel or an inversion? Rhaegar loved Lyanna, and thought he had sex with her, but it was really someone else? Ashara, perhaps? Lyanna loved Rhaegar and thought she had sex with him but it was really someone else? Arthur, Robert, Brandon, Ned, Benjen, Howland, Mance (if he was the black brother from the Night's Watch who was at Harrenhal)? Am I missing some y-chromosome in the alphabet soup?

I know Sansa is quite a bit younger than Lyanna was at Harrenhal, but if either Loras or Joffrey tried to persuade Sansa into sexual relations at the Hand's Tourney would she have done that? Maybe because of the age differences, it can't really be applied. But we have both fiance and rose giver in place for both girls at both tournaments.


This is possible. I think it is an argument for why Lyanna might have stayed in hiding with Rhaegar in the mode of "RLJ and the Towe of Love". She either didn't know what happened to her family, or she knew, but realized/thought it wasn't Rhaegar's fault. That actually follows GRRM's initial outline a bit, where Sansa marries Joffrey in spite of his awful family and deeds and has his child, and then chooses the Lannister side (her son) over her Stark family side in the war between Stark and Lannister (although she comes to bitterly regret her choice). So, perhaps, we are seeing that now play out in the present, but GRRM is placing that in the past.

Of course, Sansa is utterly delusional about Joffrey's beauty and behavior, so that would mean that Lyanna would have to be delusional about Rhaegar and his family, as well. But we know so little about her, she could be just like Sansa! Except I can't see Sansa picking up a tourney sword to reprimand some squires, so there have to be some differences noted. But it is very possible that Lyanna was more like Sansa than Arya.


Even Arya is attacted to Gendry, and she is quite young. It is innocent, but she is not blind to how handsome or strong he is. What is interesting, is that Arya thinks the prince (Joffrey/Rhaegar) is a douche, but she is drawn to Edric Dayne, which could hint at Lyanna being torn between Robert and Arthur. Hormones can play havoc with kids at pretty young ages, at least being curious and experimenting with the ideas of a more adult type of love. Heck, my friends 5 year old is "in love" with a boy at preschool, they hold hands and talk about getting married, and she told her mom if he didn't get to be in the same kindergarden class with her she "would die". What the heck! I laughed but that child is going to be something as she grows up, no doubt.


And, it's hard to say how much we should look to Arya or Sansa to tell us Lyanna's story. In my head, I can make Lyanna fit both Sansa's arc and Arya's arc, but Lyanna might end up having her own original arc with only little tidbit's of each of her nieces included. And as you point out, we should not ignore Jeyne Poole's arc in this story. Jeyne starts out being rather mean to Arya, and she is not my favorite character, but I wouldn't wish her life as Ramsay's wife on anyone, not even Cersei! So, hopefully that doesn't mirror in Lyanna's story.



I like this line of inquiry that Sansa might be indicating Rhaegar was not the true knight. Of course, I have questioned this, but there really is so little we know about him, almost anything could work for his backstory. It's possible that GRRM is speaking to us through Sansa's words, to tell us this. Or, as I suspect Sansa has a little premonition talent, perhaps she does know something about Rhaegar, at least on some level.

I actually looked at this line as perhaps a hint that Rhaegar's gifts are poison. I know that Gregor was already cruel and out of hand before Rhaegar knighted him, but it seems important that we are told that it was Rhaegar himself that anointed Gregor. Now, since Gregor is a tool of the Lannisters, does this indicate that Rhaegar was also manipulated or a tool of the Lannister's. Possible! Or he was just a bad egg! Also possible!

I have just a few observations that haven't much to do with parentage, but I am a derailer! I can't help it!

-Jason Mallister is noted to be wearing indigo armor (indigo is a color I associate with Rhaegar) and wears a helm with eagles wings (Rhaegar wore a helm with with red, orange and yellow silk) but did it also have dragon wings? I am not sure what it is about Jason Mallister's description that is reminding me of Rheagar, but it is. And I believe we have a few Targaryen helms from the past that were decorated with dragon wings, including Daemon Blackfyre.

-Bronze Yohon Royce and his sons, Andar and Robar, are all noted to wear armor with runes engraved on them, although Sansa notes that the runes didn't help them in this tournament. I was just commenting on how important I think Waymer Royce's sword hilt might be in the story, and I wonder if it also is engraved with runes. 
-
The other thought that I had about Robar Royce, who is mentioned in this chapter:

 
I find it very ironic, and perhaps important, that here we have Sansa witnessing this exchange between Loras and Robar, and later we will have Catelyn escaping with Brienne while Robar tried to hold Renly off, which ended with Loras killing Robar Royce. Just an interesting connection!

-Martyn Rivers, Walder Frey's bastard son is here at this tourney, with several of his trueborn brothers. Martyn is a bastard who is in public with his family, is competing in a huge tourney, and not even Sansa or the uptight Septa Mordane seem to think this is scandalous. Which again makes me think there is another reason that Ned knew he could not bring Jon to Kings Landing.

-The way that Robert acted to both Cersei and Jaime was out of line, and I suspect they know what his behavior can be like when he is drinking. I know that Varys implies to Ned that Cersei hoped to have Robert compete in the melee so he could be killed accidentally, but knowing how Robert would react to her words, would she really do this, risking such humiliation to herself, or her precious Jaime? I almost doubt it, although Cersei's plans don't often work out as she intended, so it is possible. But I just feel that Varys is as untrustworthy as Littlefinger, and so this seems like he is leading Ned, perhaps falsely, into more conflict with the Lannister's.

It's like she is in a trance. Or is a mule wearing blinders! A pretty mule, but still ...


Sure, yellow silk and golden glasses. I agree.


The idea that Jeyne was taken and stashed in a whore house draws my attention because of how sensitive Ned seem's about whores in general, but especially the idea that LF dragged him to a whore house. Ned is pissed and show's a bit of his wolf blood before he really know's Catelyn is even there. Something about being brought to a whore house pisses the Neddard off. He doesn't seem angry while visiting Barra's mother, so I think his anger has something to do with Littlefinger perhaps hinting that he might know something that Ned isn't comfortable with, possibly about Lyanna, possibly about Jon Snow's mother. Some thing related to either Lyanna or Jon, I think.


I just noted that Jon likens the flesh of a wighted Othor to being as white as milk. I don't know if it means anything at all.


I am sure that Ned's armor is entirely practical and rather plan. Perhaps a direwolf in a few spot's but not much ornamentation. I doubt Sansa would be impressed. Or she might be until she compared it to the flash of gold armor or silver armor decorated in sapphires.

This reminds me I had some tinfoil on what Rickard Stark's armor looked like after he was cooked in it. For some reason I don't think it melted completely. Did it turn black from the heat and flame of the wild fire? I have been trying to connect this possibility to the armor that is like black ice that Jon is wearing in his dream Azor Ahai-ish dream. "Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist."

Trying to connect all of these things to Stark items, and not Targaryen items. If Rickard's armor was burned black from the heat, could it be considered black ice, since Ice is something that is associated with Stark weaponry. Was Rickard's armor his own, or was it special Stark armor, passed down to the Lords of Winterfell? Jon screams "I am the Lord of Winterfell" in this same dream. We know that what was Ice was turned into two swords that both have black and red ripples, and I wonder if reflection of flame could make the sword appear to be burning red. Not actually being on fire, but appearing to burn in red and black flames. I realize Jon calls the blade Longclaw, so this might not be a version of Ice. Armored in Stark armor, wielding a Stark blade.

I wonder about a helm. I am looking for that. Jon trains with a helm and he would wear one in battle. Tobho Mott tells Ned he will make him a wolf helm, but Ned refuses this offer. But what if there is a helm like that in the world. Perhaps Tobho kept some of the valyrian steel from making Ice into two swords and used it with a helm. Could Gendry make such a helm. We know the work he did on the bulls head helm is quite good, and Ned was drawn to if for some reason. Just a few options, but none of which have anything to do with this thread. Oops!


When it comes to battle, I don't think Robert fears anything. He reminds me of Drogo, in a way. Fearless in battle. Dany is a bit like that, and that is even when her dragons are small and weak.


Well, that baby might not have survived, if it ever existed. Ned does have strong feelings on fighting a war to stop the killing of children.


When reading Eddard VII, and he says he has to attend the tourney because Septa Mordane is "ill", it just cracks me up all over again. If you can't function through a hangover, then you shouldn't be drinking from the punch bowl!


Hahaha! Yup! All those shiny knights...


Unless he has dementia, he would not forget. It was done with some intent.


Her next meeting with Littlefinger makes her feel uneasy, as well. She has a sixth sense but she doesn't know how to read it. Or she makes a bad decision because of it. She is so like Catelyn in this way.


I am not sure how to relate Lyanna's opinion of Robert straying from a marriage bed, to choices she might have made later in her story.


She is Amelia with the Golden Hair, and she is something. What's scary, is that her baby sister Ava is the real firecracker and gosh only knows what she will get up to when she is a bit older!


Yes, and many a young girl (and women, too) have been led astray by boys like Robert, whether love was in the picture or not!


It is possible it was a mass knighting, but I would think that the people that the crown prince knighted would be a bit separate from the rest. In birth or status or deeds. Joffrey did not knight Bronn of the Blackwater, although I am not sure who did. As I stated earlier, I think you might have picked up a clue about Rhaegar, but I am inclined to see him a bit darker than most people do. I think it's just a knee jerk reaction to the amount of love usually thrown in the direction of Prince Silverstring, and that really isn't fair to Rhaegar. Shame on me!


Yes, and who might have been her next husband had she survived the Red Wedding. Tinfoil, of course! But Robb was sending her to Seagard, and putting her in Mallister hands.


Yup. And every time I think of this line of thought, I think of Ned stating that Cersei won't allow any of Robert's bastards at court, and then I think of Robert and Lyanna again, producing a Ned look alike who loves the song of swords and doesn't mind a nice vintage of summerwine!


Her pride is such that I don't think she enjoyed being screamed at in public. No doubt she has a sharp tongue and can be a bitch. I can see her prodding him more in public, but not at this event. Even in the hall at Darry, she pushes and is insulting, but doesn't draw this kind of reaction. Perhaps the difference is in the amount Robert has drank on each occasion. Still, Varys could be spot on thinking this was her intention. And I don't think Robert gives two shit's about humiliating himself. Most drunk's don't care, and might shrug or laugh it off the next day. Or not think of it at all. Robert doesn't seem upset about his behavior in this case. Later we will see he admits that hitting Cersei was "not well done", but that might be shame only because Ned was a witness to it.


Renly actually also comes in with a smile and some wine to try to distract Robert, and I think he does. During my years of bartending, or even when I was the customer, I have seen many arguments and fights ended with a smile, a beer and a separation of combatants.


Varys is hard to read. I just am unsure of so much about his deeds and motivation. Hell, right now I am not even sure what "parts" he has! 


Haha! I know. My fingers got sore typing!

Yes, that was a bad day for Ned. Tired and he just wanted to eat, damnit! Still, he stayed pretty patient until he seen that lamp with red glass, then he is described as dismounting in fury, then ... LF tells Ned that Cat is inside, and then Neddard mentions that Brandon was to kind to LF, and put's a knife to his throat. I suppose it could be a matter of the straw that broke the camels back, but it strikes me that certain things were upsetting to Ned. But this does bring to mind what Brandon might have told Ned about LF, which certainly is on Ned's mind. And still, Ned tells us he likes Varys the least. Odd!


Ahh, cherry red is one of the things that lead me to Rickard's armor. "Cherry red" is only used for a description three times that I can find. Once for Rickard's breast plate while he burned, once for Stannis's Lightbringer when he pulls it out of the statue of the Mother on Dragonstone, and once for the wood in the cage that Mance/Rattleshirt burned it. Two of those times Melisadre and her magic were involved. Could she have been involved in some way at Rickard's death? Two items noted to be steel, one of wood. I don't know if there is a purposeful connection or not, but they certainly have that descriptor in common when they were burned. Also, Rickard's breastplate and Stannis's Lightbringer are noted to burn with jade-green flames, but as far as we know, wildfire was used to burn Rickard, but what about what happened on Dragonstone. Was that wildfire in the mix, or just Mel's powder's and potions. I think it might be an interesting tie to Mel and Aerys, or at least his pyromancer's and their fire magic. Mel is also responsible for the fire that burned Rattleshirt, but that cage is wood, not steel. She also burned that great horn, and the flames are noted to be green and yellow, so perhaps that is a connection with all three fires?
And of course, I am derailing, again!




Probably not, but it seems like Gendry is good at what he does, and GRRM put him in the workshop of a man who can work Valyrian steel. Seems like it could be important. Perhaps it's a red herring.


Well, depending on the timeline, Lyanna was gone anywhere between a year or two. Two years is time for two pregnancies, two births. Text book, time anyway. Doesn't give her body much time to recover, but if someone wants to use you as a breeding machine, then they might not care if your body is recovered from one pregnancy before another. Still, I would agree and say it is unlikely that Lyanna bore two children while missing, but not because of the time line. Funny thing is, in my head canon, I do find it possible that Ashara could have had two children during this same time frame.


Well, we know little enough about certain characters, Rhaegar, Arthur, Lyanna, Ashara, Brandon, Rickard, Elia that the vagueness lends to the character's becoming whatever people want them to be. GRRM is tricky in that way. He let's us have a perception of our own, based on vagueness of details and assumption on our part, that can vary widely. I know over the years, my thoughts have changed on certain characters.


I wonder how often they fight like that in public. I try to gauge from Joffrey's reaction, but I can't. I think this is on the more extreme end, but I bet they bicker often. This is also one of the few times I feel a bit bad for Joffrey. He is a a rotten little shit, but his parents behavior and animosity could not have helped his development and character.

Yes, she says she has them, and keeps them close, but does she use them every time? No way to know that, I suppose.


She see's herself as quite different from pyromancer's, however, she does admit to using some of their tricks. Which tricks? Is it the powders? Or something else? Even the pyromancer's in Kings Landing admit that their magic is growing much stronger and they are doing nothing different. Something has changed in the world. Is it the actual birth of dragons, or is it what power allowed the birth of dragons? 


Well, my mom and her eldest sister are 13 months apart, normal length pregnancies with uncomplicated deliveries, which means two pregnancies and two births in a total of 22 months. Certainly doable. And where we start to keep track of the time is also important, although the timeline is fairly vague. I think GRRM came up with that statement in response to questions about whether Jon and Dany were twins. The 8-9 moons/months is perhaps his way of saying that they could be from the same mother, if one pregnancy was a bit shorter than normal and then the mother conceived again quickly, but that only makes sense to me if the mother was a breeding vessel. The other thought on GRRM's answer is the closeness of Jon and Dany's births is to indicate to us that they had to have two different mothers.


Sometimes, yes, but not in this case. I think some of it has to do with my idea that Ashara is perhaps a bit older than Lyanna, and was probably sexually active before Harrenhal. Both of these things could be wrong, however. Also, the implication from the text is that Ashara lived longer than Lyanna, which also gives her a greater time to carry a second pregnancy.



That fear probably did drive her, but I am not sure it was a true threat. Could Robert set her aside? He is quite in debt to Casterly Rock. Cersei would have to know that to set her aside, without proof of her infidelity (and even with proof, perhaps), would most likely mean that Tywin would fight a war for her against Robert. If Tywin will defend Tyrion with war (and he seems to barely be able to stand him) then he would defend Cersei's rights as queen, and her children, as well.

I would agree on the premie idea. If a child was very early, I doubt it could have survived. So, I think in the setting we have, these children are all born as term, or very close to term, which could still give us a range of 37-42 weeks, so still a bit of time that differs from an exact 9 months. Still, any of these women could have a early pregnancy loss that resulted is a fetal death and then a second pregnancy that results in a term baby.


Oh, I know it's was in fun. Sometimes my madness is random, sometime it has a method. It's probably always madness, however!


Yes, the chicken or the egg conundrum!


I agree that Tywin fights, no matter who sides with him or against him. His pride is so great that he has to defend his family name. His bannerman will follow him, which is what happens early in our story. It is only Westerman fighting men from the riverlands and north to start with. And, if it was truly Littlefinger that joined the Tyrell's and the Lannister's, making a huge army from the west and reach, it wasn't really Tywin's doing. He took advantage of Littlefinger's ambition while Litterfinger took advantage of the chaos of war. And you are correct, what if's don't matter, because that is not the path the story took.

Still, I don't know that Robert could have set Cersei aside as his wife without some type of proof, an accusation might not be enough. It's possible if it's seen as unfair, it could set other houses or regions against him. Even the Faith of the Seven, who can certainly cause problems for people. Renly seems to be plotting all of this without having a clue about the questionable parentage of Robert and Cersei's children. So, this does seem like a Highgarden plot to raise themselves to greater things, but it doesn't seem well thought out. I suppose it has some hints at Henry VIII and his setting aside of a wife.

I am thinking we might have many questions that we never get firm answers on, and I think GRRM likes it that way. Open to debate and thought for years and years.


Outside of the westerlands, I would agree, and it's not really an alliance if it's your bannermen and they follow because they fear you. Tywin perhaps was too feared and too little trusted for alliances outside of the west to last long. I still questions the "who planned what" part of the Red Wedding. Perhaps Tywin wasn't the instigator? But was smart enough to take advantage.




Renly knew? About his own suspected parentage, I would agree. But I don't think he suspected about the children of Cersei's marriage.


Reading this passage, I get the impression that Renly is impressed with Stannis accusation, but not that he necessarily believes it's true. Renly mocks Stannis for his lack of proof, also.

Actually, while rereading this again, I question if Renly even suspected that he could be Robert's son. It seems like this would be a good time to say something to Stannis, although Renly has to know that he loses all claim to being a legitimate Baratheon and holding Storm's End if he is actually baseborn, so perhaps that is why he never reports such a thing to Stannis. Stannis certainly is a stickler for the rules and would use that information to take Storm's End for himself based on the the possible truth of Renly's birth, just like he does with the Iron Thone.


Here, I am on the fence if Renly suspected it was true or not. It's almost like Cat has convinced him that it is even a possibility. It seems like if Renly knew, he would have used this claim himself to throw shade on Cersei and her children, which could have caused a shift in the support of the Lannister's. 

I suppose this will also be an answer that we never get certain confirmation of.

And it might be the correct answer. Sometimes what is obvious and given to us is the right answer, but then we get the reveal that Jon Arryn was not killed by the Lannister's but by his own wife, and it makes me think that the Red Wedding backstory might not be such a given, either. I am just keeping the options open!



Whether it's true or not, Renly see's that it was a smart move to at least throw shade on the Lannister's. I think if he truly suspected, he would have used it to his advantage. And he doesn't use the knowledge when he talks to Ned. He advises Ned to capture Joffrey (and be his regent), because he who hold's the king, holds the kingdom. If Renly suspected the truth, why not use it here. No, he want's to get his hands on Joff to hold the power. He thinks the power lies with Joff, as Joff is Robert's heir. In the end, it doesn't matter, as Renly is dead and Ned is dead and Joffrey is dead. None of their actions won them anything in the end. The show gives the impression that Renly was after the throne from the moment of Robert's injury, but in the books, I don't think that came to Renly until a few roses whispered in his ear after he fled the city.


The Tyrell's that I find the most interesting are Garlan and Olenna.  Garlan seems like a very decent man, and I think is a warrior to pay attention too. Olenna is a conniver and planner however, and I can't help but think of Olenna smelling of rosewater but having sour breath. I think Maggy the Frog had sour breath, and I think that indicates they are not to be trusted. And I can't tell if Marg is smart on her own, or just being led by Olenna, and without that influence, she will stumble. I can certainly see the Tyrell's as having an air of sweetness but being rotten!

You are correct that the Tyrell's still are playing the game of thrones, but the Tyrell's are on shaky ground, with Marg awaiting her trial and the Reach in trouble facing the Iron Born invasion. Some things even Olenna can't plan around, I would think.