Post by shymaid on May 28, 2018 7:33:32 GMT
There is probably much more to find in this chapter, but I found it hard to separate this tourney from the Harrenhal tourney, and how that could end up in our parentage soup. I'll probably take another look later, but for now I'll post what I found that is a bit more obvious.
A point against Robert and Lyanna (and Jon their son, if a child followed) for me, as I'm far from sure Lyanna would go along with it. Also, if there is something sexual here it could point to Ned having Lyanna in his bed, unlike Robert.
That squeeling girl could be Lyanna, as does that horse between his legs point to – she was said to he half horse. But does that meant concentual or not? Does it point to a (drunken) rape? That he talks of this as a hunger, could point to that he wanted her, but that doesn't mean he actually got her. Which brings us to wanting to hit someone... What we (officially) have from that time is that Rhaegar had her, and Robert hit him (to death). He is king because of that.
stdaga has her tinfoil on this realating the the Starks having Targaryen blood way back; I'm not convinced of that for now without more information, so I'll keep it to current time's parentage.
I have seen rlj-ers take this as Ned should be regent until Jon reached his majority and could take the throne. I guess one could see it as that, but that invokes a whole lot of legal issues if one could even find it plausible as an outcome at the time. (I don't see romantic wishes being a legitimate argument, so try to avoid them.)
Well, I'm not so sure Ned couldn't lie for love nor honor, and combined with the last sentence that is really an interesting thing to say!
Honestly, to me that reads like there could be a double meaning in the last bit:
A maid of fourteen points to Lyanna at Harrenhal tourney. And we've seen that girl being called a young Lyanna by some.
Lovely as a dawn points in my mind to Ashara.
Both are sisters.
As I can only tie Lyanna to dawn through some tie to House Dayne, and Ashara most probably wasn't fourteen at Harrenhal, I can't decide who it's supposed to be. Or it could be both, as Ned could've lied for both of them for different (similar?) reasons. Could it be one lie for love, and one for honor?
And that bacon bit... Damn the forshadowing!
Now, this reminds of Jon.
He is sullen, and while not an apprentice he does have strong ties to a certain armorer at Castle Black. He does not have the Baratheon look, but he certainly has the Stark look stamped on his face.
So, are we to take it littereary that he's Robert's bastard? Ned did have Jon for almost 15 years.
Is the king here Ned himself? He does rule the North in all but name.
Rhaegar was only a prince and was never crowned, even if he did try to take it he never accomplished it.
The sifting of the Baratheon brothers is very similar to the Stark brothers of that generation: Robert – Brandon; Stannis – Ned; Renly – Benjen. Are Martin telling his readers to sift the Stark brothers in a similar manner? If so, does it point to Brandon being the father, as Ned concludes with Robert?
So, we learn that Robert started making bastards young, and that he was fond of that girl Ned remembers; that opens up the door for Renly in my book. Kinda poetic if Robert's oldest bastard was raised at Storm's End and now has ensured one of Robert's younger bastards are as well.
Also we learn bastards have little rights – pointing to his «trueborn» children and Cersei's actions. But also it points a light to Catelyn's hatred/fear of Jon. So far we've only seen that it annoys her that she sees him every day, but later she'll be concerned with inheritance. Something that affects all our potential bastards; perhaps with Renly being lord of Storm's End, as he got it by the king's command.
So, is Varys a ghost or a spider in truth? Or is he both? As in ghost = Targaryen.
Afterward Ser Barristan walked with Ned to the king's pavilion. The camp was beginning to stir. Fat sausages sizzled and spit over firepits, spicing the air with the scents of garlic and pepper. Young squires hurried about on errands as their masters woke, yawning and stretching, to meet the day. A serving man with a goose under his arm bent his knee when he caught sight of them. "M'lords," he muttered as the goose honked and pecked at his fingers. The shields displayed outside each tent heralded its occupant: the silver eagle of Seagard, Bryce Caron's field of nightingales, a cluster of grapes for the Redwynes, brindled boar, red ox, burning tree, white ram, triple spiral, purple unicorn, dancing maiden, blackadder, twin towers, horned owl, and last the pure white blazons of the Kingsguard, shining like the dawn.
"The king means to fight in the melee today," Ser Barristan said as they were passing Ser Meryn's shield, its paint sullied by a deep gash where Loras Tyrell's lance had scarred the wood as he drove him from his saddle.
"The king means to fight in the melee today," Ser Barristan said as they were passing Ser Meryn's shield, its paint sullied by a deep gash where Loras Tyrell's lance had scarred the wood as he drove him from his saddle.
Seems to invoke Arthur in my mind with the shield connected to shining dawn.
Meryn's shield is sullied – is that supposed to make us see Arthur as sullied? If so, is the rest of the sentence telling us how? In Sansa's chapter, Loras can be said to be a Rhaegar stand-in, who also drove Arthur from his saddle in that tourney. Just a hint of cheating in Rhaegar's favor, or something more? If there are things Meryn and Arthur have in common, I can't see it right now. Not that I'm ruling it out, just something that haven't crossed my mind before.
The mirth curdled on Robert's face. "The woman tried to forbid me to fight in the melee. She's sulking in the castle now, damn her. Your sister would never have shamed me like that."
"You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert," Ned told him. "You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath. She would have told you that you have no business in the melee."
"You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert," Ned told him. "You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath. She would have told you that you have no business in the melee."
A point against Robert and Lyanna (and Jon their son, if a child followed) for me, as I'm far from sure Lyanna would go along with it. Also, if there is something sexual here it could point to Ned having Lyanna in his bed, unlike Robert.
Buuuut, in regards to Robert and Lyanna:
"You too?" The king frowned. "You are a sour man, Stark. Too long in the north, all the juices have frozen inside you. Well, mine are still running." He slapped his chest to prove it.
"You are the king," Ned reminded him.
"I sit on the damn iron seat when I must. Does that mean I don't have the same hungers as other men? A bit of wine now and again, a girl squealing in bed, the feel of a horse between my legs? Seven hells, Ned, I want to hit someone."
"You are the king," Ned reminded him.
"I sit on the damn iron seat when I must. Does that mean I don't have the same hungers as other men? A bit of wine now and again, a girl squealing in bed, the feel of a horse between my legs? Seven hells, Ned, I want to hit someone."
That squeeling girl could be Lyanna, as does that horse between his legs point to – she was said to he half horse. But does that meant concentual or not? Does it point to a (drunken) rape? That he talks of this as a hunger, could point to that he wanted her, but that doesn't mean he actually got her. Which brings us to wanting to hit someone... What we (officially) have from that time is that Rhaegar had her, and Robert hit him (to death). He is king because of that.
«Damn you, Ned Stark. You and Jon Arryn, I loved you both. What have you done to me? You were the one should have been king. You or Jon.»
«You had the better claim.»
«You had the better claim.»
stdaga has her tinfoil on this realating the the Starks having Targaryen blood way back; I'm not convinced of that for now without more information, so I'll keep it to current time's parentage.
I have seen rlj-ers take this as Ned should be regent until Jon reached his majority and could take the throne. I guess one could see it as that, but that invokes a whole lot of legal issues if one could even find it plausible as an outcome at the time. (I don't see romantic wishes being a legitimate argument, so try to avoid them.)
«I am sorry for your girl, Ned. Truly. About the wolf, I mean. My son was lying, I'd stake my soul on it. My son... you love your children, don't you?»
«With all my heart.»
«With all my heart.»
«sorry for your girl»... Which girl? A lover? Ashara's daughter?
«About the wolf, I mean.»... Lyanna?
Ned loving his children, and this time without any mention of who those children is, could open the door for more than just his Stark-Tully childern. If that includes Jon and/or someone else is an open question I guess. And Ned does love them all. Speaking of; does this inform the same question asked by Cersei later on? Haven't read these two back to back yet.
A lie is directly tied to the death of a wolf, and so could be a mirror of the past. But that is nothing new. Was that a lie told by a/the prince, or by someone else? If so, what and by whom?Robert slapped Ned on the back. "Ah, say that I'm a better king than Aerys and be done with it. You never could lie for love nor honor, Ned Stark. I'm still young, and now that you're here with me, things will be different. We'll make this a reign to sing of, and damn the Lannisters to seven hells. I smell bacon. Who do you think our champion will be today? Have you seen Mace Tyrell's boy? The Knight of Flowers, they call him. Now there's a son any man would be proud to own to. Last tourney, he dumped the Kingslayer on his golden rump, you ought to have seen the look on Cersei's face. I laughed till my sides hurt. Renly says he has this sister, a maid of fourteen, lovely as a dawn …"
Well, I'm not so sure Ned couldn't lie for love nor honor, and combined with the last sentence that is really an interesting thing to say!
Honestly, to me that reads like there could be a double meaning in the last bit:
A maid of fourteen points to Lyanna at Harrenhal tourney. And we've seen that girl being called a young Lyanna by some.
Lovely as a dawn points in my mind to Ashara.
Both are sisters.
As I can only tie Lyanna to dawn through some tie to House Dayne, and Ashara most probably wasn't fourteen at Harrenhal, I can't decide who it's supposed to be. Or it could be both, as Ned could've lied for both of them for different (similar?) reasons. Could it be one lie for love, and one for honor?
The Lannisters could be involved somehow, and I can't rule out the Tyrells having a thorne in there somewhere yet. On the other hand, Loras is comparable to Jamie, so is that something this hints at? Also it reminds me of Cersei's strange thought here:
Seventeen and new to knighthood, Rhaegar Targaryen had worn black plate over golden ringmail when he cantered onto the lists. Long streamers of red and gold and orange silk had floated behind his helm, like flames. Two of her uncles fell before his lance, along with a dozen of her father's finest jousters, the flower of the west. By night the prince played his silver harp and made her weep. When she had been presented to him, Cersei had almost drowned in the depths of his sad purple eyes. He has been wounded, she recalled thinking, but I will mend his hurt when we are wed. Next to Rhaegar, even her beautiful Jaime had seemed no more than a callow boy. The prince is going to be my husband, she had thought, giddy with excitement, and when the old king dies I'll be the queen. Her aunt had confided that truth to her before the tourney. "You must be especially beautiful," Lady Genna told her, fussing with her dress, "for at the final feast it shall be announced that you and Prince Rhaegar are betrothed."
Cersei V, Feast
Cersei V, Feast
And that bacon bit... Damn the forshadowing!
The dagger, Bran's fall, all of it was linked somehow to the murder of Jon Arryn, he could feel it in his gut, but the truth of Jon's death remained as clouded to him as when he had started. Lord Stannis had not returned to King's Landing for the tourney. Lysa Arryn held her silence behind the high walls of the Eyrie. The squire was dead, and Jory was still searching the whorehouses. What did he have but Robert's bastard?
That the armorer's sullen apprentice was the king's son, Ned had no doubt. The Baratheon look was stamped on his face, in his jaw, his eyes, that black hair. Renly was too young to have fathered a boy of that age, Stannis too cold and proud in his honor. Gendry had to be Robert's.
That the armorer's sullen apprentice was the king's son, Ned had no doubt. The Baratheon look was stamped on his face, in his jaw, his eyes, that black hair. Renly was too young to have fathered a boy of that age, Stannis too cold and proud in his honor. Gendry had to be Robert's.
Now, this reminds of Jon.
He is sullen, and while not an apprentice he does have strong ties to a certain armorer at Castle Black. He does not have the Baratheon look, but he certainly has the Stark look stamped on his face.
So, are we to take it littereary that he's Robert's bastard? Ned did have Jon for almost 15 years.
Is the king here Ned himself? He does rule the North in all but name.
Rhaegar was only a prince and was never crowned, even if he did try to take it he never accomplished it.
The sifting of the Baratheon brothers is very similar to the Stark brothers of that generation: Robert – Brandon; Stannis – Ned; Renly – Benjen. Are Martin telling his readers to sift the Stark brothers in a similar manner? If so, does it point to Brandon being the father, as Ned concludes with Robert?
Yet knowing all that, what had he learned? The king had other baseborn children scattered throughout the Seven Kingdoms. He had openly acknowledged one of his bastards, a boy of Bran's age whose mother was highborn. The lad was being fostered by Lord Renly's castellan at Storm's End.
Ned remembered Robert's first child as well, a daughter born in the Vale when Robert was scarcely more than a boy himself. A sweet little girl; the young lord of Storm's End had doted on her. He used to make daily visits to play with the babe, long after he had lost interest in the mother. Ned was often dragged along for company, whether he willed it or not. The girl would be seventeen or eighteen now, he realized; older than Robert had been when he fathered her. A strange thought.
Ned remembered Robert's first child as well, a daughter born in the Vale when Robert was scarcely more than a boy himself. A sweet little girl; the young lord of Storm's End had doted on her. He used to make daily visits to play with the babe, long after he had lost interest in the mother. Ned was often dragged along for company, whether he willed it or not. The girl would be seventeen or eighteen now, he realized; older than Robert had been when he fathered her. A strange thought.
So, we learn that Robert started making bastards young, and that he was fond of that girl Ned remembers; that opens up the door for Renly in my book. Kinda poetic if Robert's oldest bastard was raised at Storm's End and now has ensured one of Robert's younger bastards are as well.
Also we learn bastards have little rights – pointing to his «trueborn» children and Cersei's actions. But also it points a light to Catelyn's hatred/fear of Jon. So far we've only seen that it annoys her that she sees him every day, but later she'll be concerned with inheritance. Something that affects all our potential bastards; perhaps with Renly being lord of Storm's End, as he got it by the king's command.
«The Red Keep has ways known only to ghosts and spiders.»
So, is Varys a ghost or a spider in truth? Or is he both? As in ghost = Targaryen.