1.30 Eddard VII

Finally getting to this thread. I clicked in once because I was tagged, but only looked to see the tag. I kind of like to read the chapters before I could be influenced by the thoughts of others, and this chapter stymied me for a bit. Lot's going on in this chapter!


I also wondered about the connection to the kingsguard shields and the dawn. I am not sure what the connection is to Arthur, but dawn always seem to hint at Dawn or the Sword of the Morning or SAD or all of the above.

Meryn's shield is sullied but I don't know if I think it means Arthur specifically was sullied, or just a hint at some members of the kingsguard in general. It might just be a hint for us to look to Meryn Trant as a kingsguard who lacks honor? And Meryn Trant is still kicking about in this story, still wearing the white cloak.

I do think there are hint's of Rhaegar "cheating" or using less than honorable means at Harrenhal, but I think that comes in the connection of Rhaegar to Loras, which was made in the last chapter, and to Loras's mare causing the Mountain's stallion to be unrulyl which we see in this chapter. But perhaps, if it's all connected, it hints that another kingsguard was culpable in some of what happened at Harrenhal. Not Jaime, as he wasn't there, but the rest could be suspected, including Arthur and Barristan.

We also have "pale dawn light" when Eddard is looking down at the body of Ser Hugh. We also have the LC of the kingsguard standing vigil over this body, so could that tell us something about the event's at the toj. My immediate thought was of Ned looking down at Arthur's body, but I know there is much thought to SAD surviving the rumble at the toj, so perhaps this indicates another looking down at a body? The LC at that time was Gerold Hightower, so was he standing vigil over some body? Still, Arthur as the body doesn't quite fit, since he was an experienced knight, where as Ser Hugh was green as grass and unprepared, according to Barristan.

Another dawn reference that is interesting (I can't help but associate "dawn" with SAD, and include him always in the parentage soup) is Barristan's line "night's beauties fade at dawn", which could possibly be connected to people. So who is the night's beauty and why did she fade at dawn? I know these are leaps, but Lyanna is from winter people, and a longer night than day is associated with winter, so does this make Lyanna the night's beauty and SAD as the dawn? Does it indicate a relationship that faded when SAD had to chose duty over love (as Jon does with Ygritte?), or that he might have been somewhat responsible for her death?


Since I am looking at this line, I think it's interesting that Barristan implies that words and deeds spoke in drunkeness are often forgotten or have a pretense of being forgotten, but Ned seems very sure that is not the case with Robert. Even in drunkeness, Robert remembers, which fit's Cersei's later assertions that Robert always remembered forcing her into sexual congress. So that would indicate IF Robert drunkenly did the same to Lyanna, he would remember. But Robert acts like a man who never tasted the fruit he hungered for, which hint's to me that he perhaps never know Lyanna in a carnal way?



I really read this as a hint of Starkcest: Version Neddard. Once I wrapped my mind around the possibility, I see it every where. It calls back in my mind to Ned telling us in her very first POV that he loved Lyanna with all his heart, and that Robert loved her more. Now, with starkcest glasses on, I see this as a brother loving a sister in the same way his best friend loved her, as a woman and not just a sister!




I hadn't thought of the connection to the horse between Robert's legs as Lyanna, but it's very possible. I don't see her as much of a squeeler, however! But hey, we really don't know that much about her.  But I am not so sure about the rape aspect, which I addressed above, unless Robert did force her, remembers, but pretends not to. Also, if Ned is telling us that Robert never knew Lyanna as he himself did, then it hint's to me of no Robert/Lyanna sex. However, that all depends on our interpretation of Ned's "you never knew her as I did" comment. This whole passage might very well describe Robert and Lyanna as having some sexual history.

As to Robert and rape in general, I am not sold on Robert as a rapist. I know what Cersei says, but I am not sure that Robert even wants to be in her bed. He thinks she is beautiful but claims her business is cold as ice. But she is his wife, and it is their duty as a married King and Queen to produce heirs for the kingdom. Robert is trying to do his duty, while Cersei is not, so if he forced her, while it doesn't excuse rape, it could explain why he kept coming back. He was attempting to do his duty to the kingdom. Sex for fun he can find anywhere, and I am certain with many willing partners.

Another thing that stands out to me in this passage is Robert chiding Ned for being a "sour man". Sour brings to mind lemon's, and lemon's brings to mind both Sansa and her lemon cake love and Dany and her lemons. Does Sansa get lemon cakes at Winterfell because they are shipped there in a barrel, like the are delivered to Mormont for his beer, or are there lemon's at Winterfell because a lemon tree grows in the glass gardens? I swear, I will laugh so hard I might fall of my chair if we someday learn that the glass garden's at Winterfell have a red door!!! A door and lemon tree that the weirwood heart tree look upon!

This statement by Robert of his love of wine, women and horses reminds me a bit of Dany's conversation with Daario. Daario and Robert have some interesting things in common besides stunning blue eyes. Loving to fight, loving to drink, loving to make love, but I am not sure how to tie that to parentage and Dany. It's just an interesting connection. As to Dany, I think she also could fit this bill. Although she hasn't had a ton of lovers, she is only 16 by the end of Dance, and has had two husbands, Daario and Irri, and she is not opposed to wine and she feels joy when riding her silver. I see "type" connections between Dany and Robert. It might be that they are similar in mindset, and also as conqueror's, and it has nothing to do with parentage. But all the storm imagery around Dany connects me back to the storm lands and Robert.



My tinfoil may or may not be correct, but I like that interpretation better than the RLJ driven idea that Jon is the "true king" and Ned somehow cheated Jon out of his kingship. That really irritates me, so perhaps that is why I see this statement as so different than others do.

However, we know that GRRM writes in layers, and both things could be true, I guess. On the surface, this statement seems to indicate that Robert felt like Jon Arryn or Ned Stark could have been king instead of him. Period. They all fought the rebellion together, and Robert see's the three of them as candidates for sitting the Iron Throne. He doesn't mention Hoster Tully in this, who joined the rebellion effort early, and who brought a large and needed force with him. So, Robert is singling himself, Jon Arryn and Ned Stark out as different than the other Lord Paramount (Hoster Tully) who chose to fight the Targaryen's.

So, a deeper layer could hint at RLJ. It could also hint that if Ned was meant to be king, AND Jon is his eldest son, then Jon should follow Ned as king. Lot's of tinfoil and lot's of speculation, I know!




The question that Robert and Cersei ask Ned is worded exactly the same (except for the don't you and do you not, and Ned's answer is exactly the same. This could indicate lot's of possible children, even children that Ned views as his that are not of his body, or more children than we could possibly know about. Such an open lead, from GRRM ... 

Again, this passage could be told in layers, now and then. Now hints at what happened to Sansa and her wolf, or even Arya loosing her wolf. And in the past, it might hint at Lyanna, but who is her wolf? Brandon? Perhaps as you question, it just hints at Lyanna herself. Not sure on this one.


Well, in this case Robert is either correct about Ned or he is incorrect. Either Robert know's that Ned can't lie, or Ned can lie and Robert doesn't have a clue. I actually can see both arguement's here.

If Ned can lie for love or honor, it opens many possible doors. Lies about Jon, are the ones that we see most obviously, but also lies about Dany, if Ned has something to do with her getting to safety. Or lies about any other child Ned might have smuggled away to safety. I also think that Ned could have lied to Robert about when Lyanna actually died. I would almost bet by the Trident, Robert felt like Lyanna was lost to him, otherwise, why not try to get information on her where about's from Rhaegar? Maybe they all thought she was already dead, but wasn't? Maybe she was already dead in truth?

If Ned can't lie for love or honor, then when he says Jon is his son, then perhaps we should believe it. When he claims Wylla as "his bastard's mother" then perhaps we should believe it. Now, if Ned has a different bastard than Jon with a woman named Wylla, this means that Ned wasn't lying as much as he was being deceptive or crafty. Not sure how good Ned is at those things, however. We might find out some day even though he died, he played the game much better than people suspect.

I don't see lovely as the dawn as a hint to Lyanna, even if the age is correct, as she is not of House Dayne. I do think that lovely as the dawn does hint at Ashara, and so if Robert is tempted by someone as lovely as the dawn now (in Marg) then perhaps he was tempted by another who was lovely as the dawn (in Ashara). Hint's at Harrenhal perhaps, and lover's and Ashara's "dishonor" by Robert?


The Flower of the West is an odd, odd statement. It doesn't really apply to Rhaegar or even Cersei, considering her perspective. But "the flower of the west" fell to Rhaegar's lance? Pretty sexual hinting? The west seems to indicate the Westerlands, or the area that is covered by the Warden of the West. Does Cersei hint that she herself fell to Rhaegar's lance? Someone from another house in the Westerlands. As we think of Loras as the Knight of Flowers who is gay, could this indicate some knight from the westerlands was gay and fell to Rhaegar's lance? I really am just spit-balling, here!

Just a quick look at sigils from houses from the Westerlands and the only one I see with a flower involved is House Hawthorn, which has a crown of pink flowers and a crown of pink thorns on their sigil. Crowns of flowers and thorns reminds me a bit of Ned's memory/dream in the dark cells, but House Hawthorn get's no mentions in the story, only their sigil is mentioned in the world book under the Westerlands section. There are some westerlands houses named but with no sigil information. I don't know what any of that could mean?


Again, this is looking at these statements in mulitiple layers, which GRRM is so good at giving us. On one level, it seems like a direct hint to Gendry as the king's bastard, which Ned is pretty certain is the case. It could also hint to Jon as the king's bastard. I agree that if this is a nod to Jon, then it does not connect to Rhaegar, who was never a king. Robert is a king, so perhaps Jon is Robert's bastard, as well. But if we are going to include sullen as a hint to Robert's bastards, then Grenn needs to be tossed back into the pot. He is noted to be sullen several times.

Also, it could be a hint to Jon as Ned's (king in the north, king of winter) imagery, but would Ned refer to himself as king? I don't know. I don't see this connect to Brandon, because he was never king, which is the same reason I discount it as a hint at Rhaegar. The easiest interpretation, no matter which mother, is both Gendry and Jon as Robert's bastards. Whether that is the correct interpretation, who the heck knows.

If we look at the Stark or Baratheon look being "stamped on his face" as a hint of the father of these boys, then Gendry is Robert's (or Stannis') and Jon is the son of some Stark, whether that is Ned or Rickard, Brandon or Benjen, it's hard to say. If tied to kings, then Gendry is the son of Robert, the current king, (although Stannis does have king imagery and is crowned a king) and either Ned or Rickard is the father of Jon. Both Rickard and Ned could share the Stark king imagery.




I guess I don't follow the idea that ghost's are connected to Targaryen's? Could you elaborate on that? We know that Varys is the spider. I would guess someone/thing else is the ghost of the Red Keep? The two people who seem to be the secret keepers in this story are Varys and Littlefinger. So, how could that make Littlefinger the ghost. Another option is Illyio as the ghost, but again, I don't fit that connection to either of them, really. A ghost of someone who is actually thought to be dead but isn't, and is important to the story, perhaps? 


Yes to all the connections between Robert and Renly. It was all that peach imagery that hinted at it for me to start with, then other things fall into place. You don't really follow my peach path, but you see the hint's in Renly's appearece, so like a copy of a young Robert. Either way, I would be shocked if we don't get the reveal that Renly is Robert's son at some point in the story.

But you do raise interesting thoughts about Cat and Cersei. Ned doesn't see that a bastard is a threat to trueborn children. I bet Robert see's it the same way. However, Cersei and Catelyn don't. We are told by LF, who could be lying, that Cersei had Robert's bastard twins at Casterly Rock killed, so for pride or fear, she might have done this thing. But Cersei seems like she senses no threat in Edric Storm, and as far as we know, she has not tried to harm the boy. Edric is different from Robert's other bastards because he is openly acknowledged, and has a highborn mother. Cersei only fears Robert's bastards as looking like him as some proof that her three children look nothing like Robert. Unless this indicates Cat's been cuckholding Ned for years, (like Cersei has Robert) but that is hard to consider.

But Catelyn does seem to fear Jon. Is that because she suspect's he is actually trueborn? But Ned doesn't seem to think Cersei (Cat's surrogate in this matter) should fear a bastard, and he plainly thinks of Jon as a bastard. So, did someone plant the idea in Cat's head years ago that Jon was trueborn (even if he really is a bastard born) to make her dislike the boy and unsettle her marriage? Cause trouble for her and Ned? This seems like Littlefinger type of conniving. Now, she tells us she hasn't seen or heard from him for years, but is that true? She does talk about a letter that LF sent after Brandon's death, and that she didn't read it, but what if she did. And what if it claimed that Jon was somehow Ned's legitimate son? Or what if it ties Jon to Brandon, instead of Ned? Would Cat fear that Brandon's first born son could threaten any of her own children but Ned, as Ned was the second son of Rickard.

Good stuff here, shymaid . Such a massive amount of information in this chapter, it's hard to strain through it all. My first read of this chapter for this reread overwhelmed me a bit, and so I just set it aside until I was refreshed. I have a few other thoughts, but I will put them in a separate post.

Interesting. Myself, I think Lyanna is heavily connected to Winter roses which only bloom in the glass gardens of Winterfell, which is the seat of the Stark Kings of Winter who's words are "Winter is Coming". The moon is more noted in the winter than in the summer, as the night's are much longer. I see Lyanna with winter imagery all around her! I think all of the Stark's have winter imagery, even Bran with his direwolf named Summer. However, it's good that we all have different interpretations, as the more perspectives and impressions help shed different light on the story.


Haha! That is pretty much how I feel about the Tyrell's!


What other options are you thinking for Jon's king imagery to come from? Unless it is the idea of the Corn King, and Jon is the sacrifice that needs to be made to make sure that summer follows winter. This comes down to Jon killing Bran, or Bran killing Jon, IMO. 


Haha! Bad things happened when that box was opened up!


I have in the past questioned if there needs to be a important bastard from every region of Westeros at the wall for the coming conflict.



We will never know the answer to that.


Blood, promises, wolves, winter, flowers. Just some of the imagery that I see, but who know's what might end up being important. 


Yes, the idea of Robert's cousin was a nice fit!


Edric is older than Myrcella and Tommen, so he has been known for a while. Perhaps the protection was in Robert claiming him at all, not just in the wall's of Storm's End.


It is complicated. We see that Ned is unwilling to fudge the rules around Joffrey, and he know's that the throne should go to Stannis after Robert, so it's hard to imagine that if Jon was the true heir, Ned would stand in his way, or let Robb stand in his way. However, as you point out, we might not have all the information to make this determination, yet. Ned does seem to want to tell Jon something. Of course, it seems to be that it could be about Jon's mother, but it could be about other things, as well

Most everything is interesting, although some people are drawn to some story lines more than others. I just see Lyanna and Rhaegar, while minor characters, so integral to the story, that I find it hard not to look at their individual symbolism, even if we don't have many stories related to them. But we can all speculate where we wish, and for multiple reasons.


I think this impression of Shae in a silver dress has something to do with the song lyric's to "The Winter Maid". Mance/Abel sings it at Winterfell but we don't get the lyrics. Yet, Tyrion's thought "I loved a maid as white as winter, with moonglow in her hair." seems like a line from a story, or song. Just the cadence of it. And this is a connection of maids, winter, and moon's (the light of a moon, anyway). The Winter Maid is a song that is apparently not cheerful, as Barbrey Dustin will as Abel to sing more cheerful songs after this.

However, if Shae is to tell us something about a winter maid, I note that she is associated with Varys in the scene; a Varys dressed as a foul smelling begging brother, but she can see right through his disguise. That is the only winter connection to Shae in the story, that I can see. And I speculate it is related to song lyrics. However, since we don't have any such lyrics, that will remain speculation.

I will say that I see the song's in the story, titles and lyrics, as GRRM's way of telling us something, just like he does with ship names.


Since I am not sure I view Jon's stabbing at Castle Black as a sacrifice, I will leave all of that open in my mind.


Arya also has flower imagery.


Well, since Edric is 12 or 13 when we meet him, and those twins were rumored to have been born and killed three years before the start of the story, I can't make that connection with ease. Do we know when Edric was sent to Storm's End? We are told that Robert acknowledged "the babe" but I guess that doesn't tell us when Edric was sent to Storm's End to live. It seems vague in the text. Delena was remarried and has two children with her husband, the eldest is 8 or 9. I find it hard to buy that her husband would have taken her AND her bastard, so it leads me to think that Edric has been at Storm's End since before his mother was married, but that also has no information to back it up. I guess it's possible in the way that most idea's in the story are possible.

Ah, yes. You have triggered my memory. This is Seasons of my Love, a Myrish song that Tysha sang to Tyrion when the were married. We get the title and backstory of Tysha with the song's title in Game, then we get some of the song's lyric's given to us later  in the story. I was thinking that winter line could be from The Winter Maid, but it's not.

As to your idea of what the Spring line might be, I expect it will end with "sunrise in her hair". Winter and Summer are balances to either other (moonglow and sunlight), and since we are give sunset in connection to autumn, then the balance seems to be sunrise! Which is just a name for the time of day that follow's the dawn. So, what is the modifying word for the season spring. We get red for autumn, white for winter, which are color's, then we get fair as summer, so what is blank that is applied to the missing season, which is pink. Is it a color? Fair is not a color, and it doesn't really have an opposite, so what could this other song lyric be. The thought that pops into my hair is fair vs dark in the descriptions of Jon and Robb. Which would give us  "I love a maid as dark as spring, with sunrise in her hair", which makes no sense. The word connected to spring can't be dark, or it makes no sense. But now I am going to think on it. I love puzzles like this.

I did a quick search and I noticed that "maid of summer, with sunlight in her hair" is connected to both Cersei and Lancel, but also connected to Jaime and Tyrion, in noting Cersei's beauty. 


Interesting idea!


I don't know why this stands out to me, but it does!


Well, I am not convinced the twins even existed, but if they did, it makes sense that, if they looked like Robert, and were born of some connection to Lannister blood and they ended up the spitting image of Robert, then Cersei would have every reason to fear the story their faces could tell and why she would want them dead.