Ok I’m not reading the thread, I’m at the airport and trying to watch and it’s hard. Too many distractions. Why was Varys burned? Can someone just reply to this and not say the rest? Thanks so much
Varys puts his lot in support for Jon, writes a letter to someone about how he is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. Tyrion reveals his betrayal to Dany, who straight up murders him.
Drogon sequence was epic, but that's just waaay tooo mucch fire.
Just sitting down to watch it now. Is it bad that I went to go see two movies at a cinema instead of watching live? That says something shouldn't it? For the curious: Detective Pikachu & Tolkien.
I actually thought about turning it off mid-way through the episode and resuming later. A first. For real.
I haven't read any of the comments yet, or read one online review, haven't watched one of the video's that assaulted my phone for half of the night. I actually turned the TV off after the episode, and just felt to numb to even post here. I did actually watch it twice, and the second time through I made a list of questions, observations, eye rolling moments, a few things I really liked, and a few things that I really hated, and my list has 39 items. Some things were very annoying, some things were minorly annoying, somethings I liked. I actually paused the episode a couple times just to settle my thoughts.
I don't know if I will list everything on my list, but try to hit larger themes right now. I think that people are going to be very upset with Dany's arc. But it didn't surprise me, although I think that the show might have revved it up at the end, so people will think it's out of the blue, just like Arya trampolining into the Night King. But Dany's ability to be both cruel and unforgiving has been on display many times. And on my second watch, I am convinced this was always her plan. It seemed prearranged between her and Grey Worm, and that little nod to Grey Worm when Tyrion mentioned calling off the attack if the city rang their bells, seemed like something to pacify Tyrion in that moment, and not a true intention. I think the name of the episode is stupid!!! I am not sure if it's supposed to be a call back of the Battle of the Bells in the revolution, which of course was a rallying cry for the rebel forces and lead to a Targaryen defeat. Here, we have bells supposedly driving Dany bonkers, but that makes no sense to me. In the books, I see her having quite a few bell connections, but that has never been something the show has focused on.
Still, I can see Dany not having sympathy on soldiers, even if they surrendered, and I think that would have been enough, but what is her beef wit the small folk? Because they didn't rise up like the people in Essos did. A huge difference is those people in Essos were all slaves, and these are free citizens, even if they don't have much of a choice. She never even gave the small folk a message to pick up arms to fight against Cersei. If this has been written or conveyed, then I can see her anger in their refusal to help themselves, but what they showed was just Dany slaughtering people, which does damage the fact that she does have good in her, even with the cruel streak. It just could have been done so much better.
I can even see her destroying the Red Keep and the civilians in it, but why the whole city on the way to the Red Keep. Just senseless carnage, and that also doesn't really fit Dany's past story very well.
Speaking of Dany, the Dothraki and the Unsullied! Did they all drink some bad kool-aid? Something that made them rampaging demons? How much of that kool-aid did Drogon get???
Varys. Just a bit on Varys. Was he trying to poison Dany? Was that what the kitchen girl was about? Why was Dany more upset with Varys than Tyrion? How many chances does Tyrion get, honestly! And for her to claim that Jon Snow betrayed her in this is laughable! Shit writing. So, Varys, before his death, writes a letter he hides and then writes a message he burns. Then, before it's burned completely, he puts in in a container with a lid, which would smother the fire, so leaving some remaining message behind. If you know you are caught, why even try to hide things? And why did he take his rings off? Makes no sense to me. Did not like how Jon handled this scene of Varys death at all, or Tyrion. It seems that Jorah was the only person who could talk some sense into Dany.
Drogon. Okay, so tired of this dragon fire that is like a superpowered laser beam. It's like the Death Star bolt that blew up Alderaan, for shits sake!!! It can be aimed within inches, since no one else was even singed when Varys burned. It's obviously hot, and has the strength to blow apart city gates and stone walls. If Aegon I knew that, it was silly of him to just blast Harrenhal until it melted a bit, he should have just blew it into the Gods Eye with his laser beam dragon fire. And at some point, I literally thought, "Doesn't Drogon need to be recharged for a bit?" I wish my phone could go on and on like that.
Apparently, if Jon would have just fucked Dany this would not have happened. Good fooking job, Jon Show! There whole dynamic has always been odd but he stands there and tells her how much he loves her, but then he proves that love doesn't mean a consensual adult sexual relationship. I guess we are supposed to understand that Jon is upset by the incest but it's never once expressed by him or Dany that they are even thinking about it. So many conversations that should happen, but did not, on the speedy end to this story. There is no way they could not have put this into 10 episodes for each of the last two season, and probably made a much better story of it. Yet Jon remains absolutely, stubbornly loyal, and Varys even tells him, "we both know what she is going to do", so this makes this Jon's fault, too!
Tyrion is not so smart, again! His trust in Dany is either blind or he is just stupid. Although, I thought how Peter Dinklage played that moment when Dany started burning the city was a brilliant. Shocked, horrified, vulnerable! Still, the Jaime/Tyrion stuff I was ambivalent about, and how easy it was for Jaime to escape was laughable. So, nothing in that Bronn scene from the previous episode (which I hated, btw) mattered at all, so it was just pointless filler to give Jerome Flynn some screen time in what seemed like a Tarantino type of rant. And there was absolutely no reason for Tyrion to throw Varys under the bus! Asshole!
Jaime and Cersei! Okay, they annihilated any bit of Jaime's character growth, and show Cersei really never had any. Except they think she loves her children while she has proven time and time again she loves power more than any of her children. Why does Jaime need to get into the Red Keep through the tunnels, but not Arya, but I will get to Arya later. Did Jaime get stabbed twice in the chest, probably lung shots, and still manage to climb from the beach, through the tunnels, nearly to the top of the Red Keep? For fooks sake anyway!!! I don't even mind that they died together, and I know that the show never gave us the valonqar prophecy, (suddenly while typing this I am wondering of Book Val will have anything to do with this valonqar concept, but that's a rabbit hole I am not going down at the moment). So, their scene was tender, I get it, they love one another more than anything else in the world, but Cersei deserved a worse death than that! Period!
And Jaime saying he never liked the people of Kings Landing anyway was probably true, but he still killed a king at the risk of his own honor 20 years ago to save those same people, but now he never cared. Then why did you kill Aerys and use that has your reasoning? Terrible writing as far as I am concerned.
Euron- I don't even mind the almost crazy Jack Sparrow impersonation but really, you seem to be the only survivor of the Iron Fleet and you conveniently manage to swim right up to where Jaime is at? That shit is so annoying!!!
Arya- Just rode through the northern camp and announced herself and what her plan was just like she was talking about the weather and somehow that information does not get to Jon Snow? So, Arya is going to kill Cersei, rides all the way across the country with the Hound and all seems well, and then when there is like one staircase left to climb to her goal, the Hound just talks her out of her plan. He could have done this at any point between KL and Winterfell, or before they even got in the Red Keep. Dumb. And her change from stone cold killer to softy soft vulnerable human is a bit like a roller coaster. Not sure if that's the script or Maisie's acting. I didn't mind following her through the city at all, and I think that her perspective on the destruction was nice. Although she seems to be as indestructible as Jon Snow. Those Stark's really are hard to kill. Except Rickon, he went down pretty easy! And now it seems like Arya has a new queen she will want to kill. So, Arya kills Dany who just toasted Arya as the Hero of Winterfell, and I predict that Jon kills Drogon in the final episode, which is better than just yelling at a dragon. Seems where they might be going. She never pulled Needle or her dagger one time, but I am sure they will serve some kind of purpose. Two episodes ago, I though she would kill Jon in the end, but now I think it's just Dany. And I think someone has to kill Bran because he allowed this to happen.
I loved that Qyburn was killed by his own creation, of course a nod to Frankenstein. And I didn't mind the Hound and the Mountain's show down. Sandor was going to die anyway, so he might as well take his brother out. But is it even possible to kill the Mountain? I expected him to walk out of those flames at some point...
The golden company turned out to be wimpy asshat's who served no purpose. Again, why put your ground forces outside the castle like that? Stupid and only for the effect of seeing them burned and crushed I guess. But Harry Stickland served no purpose and we would have been better of with an unnamed character as a leader since he was so unimportant. I am glad we didn't need to see a slaughter of elephants! Oh, I actually really liked their shields!
Jon's view during the battle might have been an homage to how the Neddard saw the Lannister sack of Kings Landing, and I kind of enjoyed that aspect, but I don't know if it was intended or not. All I really kept thinking when I looked at Kit in this episode is why is his hair so much longer than it was in the last few episodes. He obviously has no barber now that Melisandre is dead! I liked that both Jon and Davos were trying to help people, and I do appreciate that is showing their basic decency as humans. This for Arya, as well!
Just a thought on Arya's end in the show. The white horse. At first I was like this might be "the grey girl on a dying horse" nod from the books, but that horse is not dying. I also thought, is this a little of Ned or Bran helping her out, spirits of wargs and what not, but that's probably not correct, either. But Arya is strongly associated with death, and so the white horse might be a nod to "death rides a pale horse" business from the apocalypse, which is what Kings Landing now looks like.
Okay, two Stark's that didn't make an appearance.
Bran- you knew this was going to happen and you did nothing to stop it. It all comes back to him wanting Jon to know about his parentage, knowing it was culminate in this atrocity. So, was that Bran's purpose the whole time? And perhaps it would have been better if the Night King had killed Bran? I need to think on this a bit more. We know he knew, because he had the vision of a single dragon flying over KL. That was Drogon and Dany, setting up to destroy everything.
Sansa- she is as responsible for this atrocity as anyone in the story. She wanted Jon in power and not Dany, but her manipulation caused all of this to happen, just like in S1 her manipulation of events, wanting to get her own way for her own interest, caused the death of her father and the beginning of the end for her family. So, she better be held accountable for this. Jon needs to take her head of in the godswood, and if that doesn't happen, I will be extremely disappointed! She lied in front of the heart tree, and in the books, I think that will have repercussions, but in Dave and Dan's world, I sadly am worried it will not matter.
Okay, that felt cathartic! Sorry about the rant. In spite of my ranting, I was pretty riveted to this episode, and I would say it's the best of the season! Just the mass destruction left me cold. Honestly, from the moment that Dany made her choice to burn the innocents, I felt pretty detached from what I was watching. Which sadly felt like episode 3 all over again. Something is missing in the human connection, even though the visuals are stunning, and scope of the what happened is almost terrifying.
I honestly left all my really nitpicky complaints out of this, but they might flare up in the days to come.
Last Edit: May 13, 2019 14:53:39 GMT by stdaga: spelling ... yikes!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Holy shit! I just looked at IMDB which is rating this episode currently at 7.1, and Rotten Tomatoes is currently at 50%. That is much worse than I expected. Even if you didn't like the turn Dany took, I think these ratings are pretty low. I wonder how much is just the sharp turn in public opinion? People who still defended the show for the last several years are now finally seeing what many of us seen happening since at least Season 5, and reacting?
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
It did work, though. Jon realizing he backed a psychopath with the Westerosi equivalent of a nuke, Dany's loyal troops being the barbarians they are and just mowing down civilians, even our dear friends the Northmen getting rapey. At least our boy saved one person, anyhow.
Battle lust for certain affected the northmen, which I think is realistic. You hear of terrible things done in the adrenaline of battle from people who would never act that way normally. I did like that Jon tried to control his men. That look that Grey Worm sent to Jon Snow was chilling! Yikes! That eunuch needs to die! The Dothraki have always been asshat's but the Unsullied are at least normally controlled, but no longer.
Well, one more week of trying not to spoil the episode. I hope they find someone to kill all those Unsullied/Dothraki, they're not gonna be happy.
Maybe Jon needs to hop on Drogon and burn them all! Or perhaps we will be left with barbarians making a life in Westeros and society is changed completely. This would be a version of breaking the wheel, although it's clear that Dany must die now! No redemption for her after that.
Honestly, halfway through, and I still don't see anything wrong. Dany was always going to go "mad" that was telegraphed back in AGOT right after Viserys died. The chapter after that death has her for the first time thinking of taking the throne for herself and she comes across as mad. I never really understood the Daenerys love people have for her character, that chapter did it in for me.
I agree, Dany always had this in her arc and I expect it from her in the books, as well, although I think they could have played it a bit better. Like she goes after surrendered Lannister forces, but kills some innocent peeps by mistake, then the innocent peeps turn on her men because of the accident, THEN she annihilates everyone. This just seemed a little contrived.
But then I never really got all the Sansa love, especially after the way she got Jeyne Poole into the situation she got her in and showed very little empathy for her as Jeyne was clearly distraught over losing her father, and there's Sansa is complaining that she won't stop crying. She's your best friend, and you can't treat her right when she needs you most?
I have a hard time forgiving a lot of characters for the way they were in AGOT...
I don't know what GRRM has planned for Sansa in the end, but I personally think she needs to be punished for her roll in Ned's death. I know many people disagree with me, but... As for the show, she clearly overplayed inthis and did not really know what kind of box she was opening up. The deaths of all those innocents in KL are sitting on her pretty little shoulders. And she betrayed her brother/cousin's trust in front of a heart tree. If she doesn't die I will riot in my very own street!
*slams thick book on table* It's a reference to Revelations, either way. Either you can see it as "death riding a pale horse" or "Christ riding a white horse".
Yes, after a little thought and a few other ideas, I think this is where that white horse is leading as well. Although, honestly for a second, that horse reminded me so much of Daenery's silver, which we haven't seen for years now since Dave and Dan hate animals, but I also like the idea that from the moment that Dany was given her silver, her own "pale horse" she has also been Death!!!
Question: did the Unsullied also partake in this? I haven't watched it. I know Grey Worm flipps out, but did the rest? As it's been brought up that the Unsullied do not sack a city earlier, as a point in favor of using them.
Yes, the Unsullied took part in the murder of civilians and the destruction of the city! And yes, it does seem out of character, but these Unsullied are a long way from the Astapor trained army that Dany got through deception. And who knows what their orders might have been. We don't see that, but Grey Worm is like a boiling pot of hate and anger, so... he is their leader. It is like with Jorah's death, any conscious has been leached from Dany's arc and army!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I feel like this whole final season seems rushed and lacks cohesion. Got a soap opera episode and a "Vietnam" movie in the same season. Wonder if we'll see Yara and Brienne in the final episode. I do admit, I did tear-up during Tyrion and Jaime's "good-bye" scene...
Holy shit! I just looked at IMDB which is rating this episode currently at 7.1, and Rotten Tomatoes is currently at 50%. That is much worse than I expected. Even if you didn't like the turn Dany took, I think these ratings are pretty low. I wonder how much is just the sharp turn in public opinion? People who still defended the show for the last several years are now finally seeing what many of us seen happening since at least Season 5, and reacting?
That high? I guess that what I get for watching the saltier streams.
Maybe Jon needs to hop on Drogon and burn them all! Or perhaps we will be left with barbarians making a life in Westeros and society is changed completely. This would be a version of breaking the wheel, although it's clear that Dany must die now! No redemption for her after that.
It's not only Dany that has to die now.
After Dany is dead, Aejon claims Balerion Drogon the Black Dread, takes out the remaining Dothraki and Unsullied, then turns him out to sea, never to be seen again.
I agree, Dany always had this in her arc and I expect it from her in the books, as well, although I think they could have played it a bit better. Like she goes after surrendered Lannister forces, but kills some innocent peeps by mistake, then the innocent peeps turn on her men because of the accident, THEN she annihilates everyone. This just seemed a little contrived.
I kinda expect this as well in the books. But then I hope she stays in Slavers Bay, so...
I don't know what GRRM has planned for Sansa in the end, but I personally think she needs to be punished for her roll in Ned's death. I know many people disagree with me, but... As for the show, she clearly overplayed inthis and did not really know what kind of box she was opening up. The deaths of all those innocents in KL are sitting on her pretty little shoulders. And she betrayed her brother/cousin's trust in front of a heart tree. If she doesn't die I will riot in my very own street!
For the most part I think her torment after her father's fall and death, she's had the punishment she had coming. And I take into consideration how young she was. A redeeming factor, but not one that gets her totally off the hook.
Yes, the Unsullied took part in the murder of civilians and the destruction of the city! And yes, it does seem out of character, but these Unsullied are a long way from the Astapor trained army that Dany got through deception. And who knows what their orders might have been. We don't see that, but Grey Worm is like a boiling pot of hate and anger, so... he is their leader. It is like with Jorah's death, any conscious has been leached from Dany's arc and army!
Yes, I caught that after I asked. The Dothraki was just being Dothraki, so I expected that, but not really the Unsullied. Now they really have to deal with that "peaceful" immigrant population.
There is no longer any doubt about it: this WILL go down as THE worst ending in television history. Period.
I feared this when the show was young, and is the reason I never bought any dvd. I wanted to wait and see if they mucked it up like so many other shows. And yep, they sure did!
Holy shit! I just looked at IMDB which is rating this episode currently at 7.1, and Rotten Tomatoes is currently at 50%. That is much worse than I expected. Even if you didn't like the turn Dany took, I think these ratings are pretty low. I wonder how much is just the sharp turn in public opinion? People who still defended the show for the last several years are now finally seeing what many of us seen happening since at least Season 5, and reacting?
That high? I guess that what I get for watching the saltier streams.
My dears, there is a concerted effort going on by some subreddits to downvote this, even resorting to multiple accounts to do so. Not really reliable.
Post by Winter's Rose on May 13, 2019 18:50:40 GMT
This episode seemed to go on forever and really did not do a whole lot for me. To be fair I think too much time has gone by since the beginning. What started with a bang seems to be going out with a whimper. For me this was just scene after scene of things that just really did not matter that much. Maybe they just killed off so many interesting people and the ones left just seem a lot dumber or out of it.
Jon seems to just be taking up space. I want to see the Jon from Watcher on the Wall, but he seems to have left. I liked Aiya with the Hound and I liked her getting on the horse, but her running through the streets with the lady and her child seemed stupid. Grey Worm did not really even look like Grey Worm. That was weird. I am disappointed with Dany being the Mad Queen now. That started at the beginning of the season when they made such a big to do with her having killed Randall Tarly (Like anybody cared about Randall Tarly.) and now we have her just flying through the streets burning whoever gets in her way because someone dared to kill her slave girl. Hey I like Missandei, but I'm not sure she is worth burning an entire city for.
Something is off for me and I can't put my finger on it exactly. I don't know if it they took too long to tell the story and I'm just over it, or if I think there should be more meaning because I read way too much into stuff originally.
Things I did like. Finally seeing Drogon fly over King's Landing, Aiya and the white horse, Tyrion with Jamie, Davos doing anything, The Hound and The Mountain even though I wanted the Hound to kill the mountain and ride off into the sunset.
I won't say it's horrible because in all honesty I do not feel that it is. I also blame myself by reading too much into early stuff and believing someone would have the where with all to bring all of that back around and tie up a lot of loose ends. I am just not finding it satisfying. When it is completely over I think I am going to sit down and rewatch the last two season and see if I like it better when it runs straight through. I have found over the last years that a lot of times I liked a season much better the second time around without having to wait a week.
We had sunshine in December and grew our roses in the snow.