- Half a million ++ fans are glutton for punishment??
- shouldn't these busy people be more worried about more pressing issues, eg the increasing interdictions of moon tea north of the wall-to-be?
Maybe they are laying the groundwork for a lawsuit? A class action suit to get D&D's money away from them? The millions they got paid split around half a million--might not be much, but would cost D&D a lot.
If they could find a judge foolish enough to take the suit. . .
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
It actually can fit well with a lot of the canon we have from the books. Here are some random examples/theories:
The COTF, as part of the Pact, offered to give men access to the weirnet, effectively creating the first human greenseers. Men jumped at this opportunity, of course, as knowledge = power. Or so they thought. Each Great House can trace its descent to a legendary ruler who in almost all cases ruled for hundreds of years. And who had magical abilities not normally seen in humans. Just as each Great House built their castle around a weirwood tree, so each of them had a family member turned into a greenseer. This person ruled for a long time, and their descendants after them. But here is the catch: the weirnet takes over the individual (a concept also explored in GRRM's The Glass Flower). Show-Bran demonstrates this very clearly, as does book BR. And who are the other consciousnesses in the weirnet? The previous greenseers, primarily, or in any case 99% would be COTF. So their voices would carry great influence in the decision making of the current greenseer, even if he is human. Meaning it was actually the COTF, or the weirwood trees depending on how you see it, who were ruling the Great Houses of Men.
Somewhere in history, men stopped being greenseers. I can't explain why, but maybe the Long Night? It seems like the Long Night and the imbalance of the seasons could be linked somehow to the human greenseers messing things up. In any case, even after they stopped having their own greenseers, the various Houses kept their trees and continued praying to them until the Andals came, so it doesn't seem like Men figured out that the trees were ruling them. And by losing greenseers, men lost an incredible amount of knowledge. Like the COTF, the First Men who had greenseers had no need for written language - this is why the loss of greenseers would equal the loss of virtually all accumulated knowledge, possibly accumulated over thousands of years. What a major setback! But also, men were now free and no longer being influenced by the COTF.
----
Bran notices how men would be wroth, but the Children only sing sad songs. Except they don't - they plan ahead. BR isn't the only greenseer who was manipulating events to ultimately result in Bran the greenseer, being the brother to the rightful king and all.... Everything had to come together just right, and the COTF helped it along. The Ghost of High Heart made sure that Aerys and Rhaella would produce the Prince that was Promised, and since the dragon has three heads, I propose fAegon is in fact the real Aegon and all three of them are collectively the Promised Dragon. Collectively, they will lay waste to Westeros as they fight each other, Cersei, Euron and possibly the Others (their role is still unclear). But none of that really matters, as the whole point is to reach the place the show is heading:
the dragons kill each other, and after years of war there are no proper claimants left... and so the Council chooses Bran.
And the Children have won the only war that matters: the Great War. They once again rule their continent. Congratulations, COTF. Well played.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
Yes--when I saw the idea, I thought it actually might work.
I've been wondering for a while if Bran is telling the truth--either because he knows it and wants to deceive, or because he was being deceived by the NK.
No one seems to question Bran or his motives. He tells Tyrion he doesn't want anything. Yet he waits to tell Jon about his parentage, not letting Sansa or Arya in on it, but telling Sam first--what???
It may just be crappy writing--or it may be crappy writing plus strategy.
Another great point. We automatically assume he wants what's best for everyone... but does he? Why didn't he try to prevent the massacre at King's Landing?
And if all the greenseers essentially represent the weirnet and COTF... and if the goal is to rule over humanity... then if the NK tries to kill them - isn't he protecting humanity itself? And is he not thereby the actual protagonist of our story? The shield that guards the realms of men. (I know the books don't have the NK, but maybe some version thereof, or the Others collectively would work just as well). They awoke when Bran was born and their goal is to take him out. That's their only goal: eliminate the greenseer. They only came south of the Wall because Bran went south of the Wall. They never would have gone past Winterfell. They only wanted Bran, and he manipulated all the forces of the Realm into sacrificing themselves to save him.
putting an all-knowing king on the throne - but he doesn't realize he's handing power over to another species. It's almost like body snatchers in a way - he looks like a little boy which is non-threatening to humans, but he's really the hive mind consciousness of the weirwoods.
I really love this ending.
Last Edit: May 17, 2019 5:24:32 GMT by Maester Sam: forgot spoiler tags
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
Indeed innocents being destroyed for no reason is sad. Her destroying her own castle just to get at Cersei was funny.
I know, on both accounts. And the latter is indeed just funny! Not only did she destroy what (I assume) would be her new home as the Rightful New Queen in the Land She Does Not Know, but her own family built the god damn thing. It's like taking a wrecking ball to your house because you stubbed your toe!
Per the Inside the Episode (which is the first time I actually felt like watching one, I should mention), they said that they had wanted to focus solely on peasant characters from inside King's Landing throughout the sequence--but figured the audience wouldn't be invested enough in those characters for just that one episode, so they added in Arya to allow them to portray the struggle of the smallfolk on the ground to survive the dragon attack, figuring that the audience would care if Arya was there.
So Arya coming south to kill Cersei and then getting cold feet was all one gigantic excuse to maneuver her into position so they could have her escaping an Apocalyptic King's Landing.
Why not use Davos for that?!? He's a native of the city, and would have the emotional connection needed for this!
Perhaps they like Maisie as much as Lena, so they decide to use characters for things that doesn't really make a narrative sense?
Perhaps if there was even some kind of acknowledge from her of what she did, what her attempt to manipulate the situation cost her family, I would be more sympathetic. So far, there is nothing like that going on, show or books. I get she was young, but Arya is younger, and would not have betrayed her father in that way, or at least I don't think so!
I have to blend show and books here... Sorry for that, but I don't have the dvds or hbo, so my memory is lacking...
I don't really disagree with you, as the points are valid to be sure.
However, Sansa has been brought up to be a southron lady, but never visited the south except for in idealized stories. So when she went south, she thought she would actually live in one. That's bad parenting!
When the debacle at the Trident went down, she didn't know how to handle it. Did Ned ever talk to her about it? At all? Not as far as I know! With Arya he at least explains that King's Landing is a dangerous place, but he does NOT do that with Sansa. He seems to be stricktly 100% hands off with her! He should have told her!
That being said, she should have had more brains to think some of this herself, but I also think she should have had way more support than she had. And I do wonder if she would be able to handle facing up to what she did. It reminds me of Dany's mantra "if I look back, I am lost" but without actually thinking it. Just avoiding it all together.
Yes, the complete destruction of innocents was a bit of a shock, or at least the amount of them. But in Meereen I think they pointed out that not all of the people she crucified were responsible for the crucifixion of the slave children. They might have been slave holders, but they didn't condone the atrocity that many of the master's called for, therefore might not have deserved the fate that Dany handed them. So, another example of innocent's suffering for her sense of justice. I expect the books to handle such a thing much, much better, if we ever get the book version of this.
Indeed. And she did burn at least one during the troubles with the Sons of the Harpy, didn't she? In order to frighten them off.
Yes, the more I think about it, the more I think that is the case. Her look of conflict at the time was not in regards to razing the city, but in regards to not doing it, and causing turmoil with at least Grey Worm. Grey Worm's hate was palatable. And it's really kind of ridiculous. It's not like he witnessed the city folk of Kings Landing laughing or calling for Missandei's death. THAT would have been better, if we wanted to turn Dany and Grey Worm's hatred into something truly believable.
I'd understand if Gritty Worm went straight for Cersei, but going after the regular people? I find that break a bit hard, tbh. At least they should have done something to wake his rage like that.
Yes, that is stunningly apparent! Blow apart a tower at Winterfell with the blue fire, but cannot even move a pile of rubble so Jon can be safe behind it! Grrrr!
Well, he's the hero, isn't he. (Who didn't get to kill the bad guy he had been waiting for, but that's just for the sake of subversion.)
Absolutely!!! This has been foreshadowed, and I am rather entertained by how butthurt several youtuber's are about Dany's turn to the fire side! Really, really butthurt! Seriously, I want to send them Kleenex and cookies!
Yes, and I'm legitimately curious as to what those outraged viewers took away from her Season 1 arc.
Her entire journey in the first book/first season is her becoming increasingly confident in her role as "Khaleesi," queen of a people who are referenced several times in relation to the sacking and burning of cities, and ultimately culminates in her executing a woman by burning her alive--Aerys' favored method of execution. That all seems to be setting a pretty clear tone for her future.
Agreed! At least showing her potential. But for some reason all her actions, however gruesome, is defencable for some.
I do, however, agree with criticisms of her characterization within this final stretch; it doesn't read like a progression toward madness, it reads like abrupt emotional instability, and it particularly presents poorly in contrast to Tyrion and Varys suddenly becoming paragons of morality and caution.
Perhaps this is the main problem. The shift was too abrupt where it should have been more gradual.
adding to this, why else would anyone want to have dragons as pets?
What kind of question is that?!? I'd love to have a dragon! Though I might not be that inclined to burn a city to the ground. Unless someone really really pissed me off...
Dany has always been somewhat bipolar. She wanted the dragons but then chained them when they frightened her. She freed slaves and grew olive trees but also roasted enemies with ease. She has two armies with opposite methods.
Had a friend whose parents named her Pippin after LOTR. She hated having to explain she wasn't named for Pip in Great Expectations.
Khalessi is still worse.
Hahaha! In some parts of my country, several people got named after characters in Dallas and such shows from what I hear. Which leads to some, well, awkward names, as they really stand out.
I have an unusual name myself, which at times I resented, but at least it wasn't from some book or soap opera! I consider myself lucky!
This. Granted, first time I read the novels, I yelled at Dany "Stop!!" when she was doing the pyre with MMD. I was horrified from the get go.
I was spoiled by the show, but that shocked me at times - Viserys more than MMD. Granted he was cruel to her, so I get that she didn't mind him dying, but the WAY he died... Been hearing justifications on these things with disbelief, actually. I definitely have a vindictive streak, but this is way over my limit!
Yes--makes me worried for what people will justify as "acceptable" behavior is Dany's rise. I always thought it was dangerous. Granted, the books are clearer that she's rejecting life and home for fire and ashes, but still . . . Dany has goodness in her--but chooses monstrosity, too.
I know... But I'm not really that surprised either, as there are signs of this kind of thinking with other areas of our world while claiming moral superiority.
The show has just started chucking things off narrative cliffs--the resurrection, the greyscale, the cause of the long night, why the NK came back--just chucked it all.
Am wondering if this is why they are doing the prequel with different writers. D&D wanted out and are fleeing with all due speed and undue cash.
Haha, Martin leaves characters hanging off cliffs, while D&D just tosses them over!
I'm actually surprised they've been allowed to finish the show, as they clearly don't care about it at all. But some seems to like it still, and they are raking in the money, so...
But there's a podacast just out with Bryan Cogman--he has very odd pause when the interviewer asks if everything that Bran has told them is true. Asks if we can trust Bran.
Cogman pauses, laughs, and basically says, "Bran's said what he's said. And that's all I'll say."
Really hoping we aren't getting some creepy "twist."
“Remake Game of Thrones season eight with competent writers” demands a petition posted to Change.org, following this past weekend’s episode, The Bells, one of the series’ most polarizing episodes to date. The petition has since been signed by more than 500,000 disgruntled fans.
Not sure what to make of this:
- Half a million ++ fans are glutton for punishment??
- shouldn't these busy people be more worried about more pressing issues, eg the increasing interdictions of moon tea north of the wall-to-be?
OMG! Why not petition for an animated series more in line with the books?
The COTF, as part of the Pact, offered to give men access to the weirnet, effectively creating the first human greenseers. Men jumped at this opportunity, of course, as knowledge = power. Or so they thought. Each Great House can trace its descent to a legendary ruler who in almost all cases ruled for hundreds of years. And who had magical abilities not normally seen in humans. Just as each Great House built their castle around a weirwood tree, so each of them had a family member turned into a greenseer. This person ruled for a long time, and their descendants after them. But here is the catch: the weirnet takes over the individual (a concept also explored in GRRM's The Glass Flower). Show-Bran demonstrates this very clearly, as does book BR. And who are the other consciousnesses in the weirnet? The previous greenseers, primarily, or in any case 99% would be COTF. So their voices would carry great influence in the decision making of the current greenseer, even if he is human. Meaning it was actually the COTF, or the weirwood trees depending on how you see it, who were ruling the Great Houses of Men.
Interesting. That would explain the abilities of the early Great Houses.
Somewhere in history, men stopped being greenseers. I can't explain why, but maybe the Long Night? It seems like the Long Night and the imbalance of the seasons could be linked somehow to the human greenseers messing things up. In any case, even after they stopped having their own greenseers, the various Houses kept their trees and continued praying to them until the Andals came, so it doesn't seem like Men figured out that the trees were ruling them. And by losing greenseers, men lost an incredible amount of knowledge. Like the COTF, the First Men who had greenseers had no need for written language - this is why the loss of greenseers would equal the loss of virtually all accumulated knowledge, possibly accumulated over thousands of years. What a major setback! But also, men were now free and no longer being influenced by the COTF.
If the "break" happened during the Long Night, it would make sense as that lasted a generation. As I'd think they would be required to wed the trees, perhaps that specific knowledge was lost at that time.
Bran notices how men would be wroth, but the Children only sing sad songs. Except they don't - they plan ahead. BR isn't the only greenseer who was manipulating events to ultimately result in Bran the greenseer, being the brother to the rightful king and all.... Everything had to come together just right, and the COTF helped it along. The Ghost of High Heart made sure that Aerys and Rhaella would produce the Prince that was Promised, and since the dragon has three heads, I propose fAegon is in fact the real Aegon and all three of them are collectively the Promised Dragon. Collectively, they will lay waste to Westeros as they fight each other, Cersei, Euron and possibly the Others (their role is still unclear). But none of that really matters, as the whole point is to reach the place the show is heading:
Would the remaining men choose a sterile boy/man as king? Though it would mirror Dany wanting to reinstate Targaryen rule in Westeros while thinking she is barren. Something I've always found odd and pointless.
It would fit with other stories Martin has written. Playing enemies against each other, seeming benevolent while actually being highly aggressive.
Another great point. We automatically assume he wants what's best for everyone... but does he? Why didn't he try to prevent the massacre at King's Landing?
We see a weird and creepy Bran, but he told Meera he wasn't Bran anymore. So why should we trust him?
Would the remaining men choose a sterile boy/man as king? Though it would mirror Dany wanting to reinstate Targaryen rule in Westeros while thinking she is barren. Something I've always found odd and pointless.
It would fit with other stories Martin has written. Playing enemies against each other, seeming benevolent while actually being highly aggressive.
Exactly - if it's ok for Dany, it's ok for anyone.
And we know that in the case of greenseers, the succession is different anyway - those born with the gift are potential successors, not the actual children of the current greenseer.
And yes, having the COTF playing the long game fits very well with GRRM's other works. And even with hints within ASOIAF. Littlefinger, specifically. He tries to fight Brandon, but can't win. So he schemes and plots and sets things up to work for him. What's the quote? If you can't fight them, fuck them? Might be show only, but that's basically it. In Dying of the Light, there is a LF-type character whose saying is "My enemy has an enemy". That's exactly what's happening here. Let all the men kill each other off, then trick the handful of survivors into following a greenseer, thinking he is one of their own. Pretty brilliant, really.
We see a weird and creepy Bran, but he told Meera he wasn't Bran anymore. So why should we trust him?
We shouldn't! Meera is the only one who could see it, when she said "you died in that cave".
Now, here is what's really blowing my mind. If we assume the many, many consciousnesses in the weirnet can take over a human greenseer and essentially have him rule in the way the weirnet intends... and thereby influence the culture and behavior of all men... which is probably how the worship of the Old Gods by the First Men came about.... And if the COTF also worship the trees/weirnet, and also live in harmony with nature as the weirnet commands... wouldn't this suggest that the COTF may not have been the creators of the weirnet, but instead their society/culture was also taken over by the weirnet long ago? Perhaps they were once very different, not peaceful and in balance with nature, but destructive and technologically more advanced... until the first of them was wed to a tree.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
And we know that in the case of greenseers, the succession is different anyway - those born with the gift are potential successors, not the actual children of the current greenseer.
And yes, having the COTF playing the long game fits very well with GRRM's other works. And even with hints within ASOIAF. Littlefinger, specifically. He tries to fight Brandon, but can't win. So he schemes and plots and sets things up to work for him. What's the quote? If you can't fight them, fuck them? Might be show only, but that's basically it. In Dying of the Light, there is a LF-type character whose saying is "My enemy has an enemy". That's exactly what's happening here. Let all the men kill each other off, then trick the handful of survivors into following a greenseer, thinking he is one of their own. Pretty brilliant, really.
From the CotFs thought, yes. I was thinking more in line if
Now, here is what's really blowing my mind. If we assume the many, many consciousnesses in the weirnet can take over a human greenseer and essentially have him rule in the way the weirnet intends... and thereby influence the culture and behavior of all men... which is probably how the worship of the Old Gods by the First Men came about.... And if the COTF also worship the trees/weirnet, and also live in harmony with nature as the weirnet commands... wouldn't this suggest that the COTF may not have been the creators of the weirnet, but instead their society/culture was also taken over by the weirnet long ago? Perhaps they were once very different, not peaceful and in balance with nature, but destructive and technologically more advanced... until the first of them was wed to a tree.
And around and around we go! Time is but a wheel! It really makes you question, including what if they have all men kill each other, who will take their place to continue the greenseers?
Yes--makes me worried for what people will justify as "acceptable" behavior is Dany's rise. I always thought it was dangerous. Granted, the books are clearer that she's rejecting life and home for fire and ashes, but still . . . Dany has goodness in her--but chooses monstrosity, too.
I think people who see Dany as rising up from hardship and gaining strength, and that makes it easier to not focus on "how" she is gaining that strength. With three nuclear weapons, a cavalry of brutal raiders, an infantry that will not stop until death, while all are used to steamroll over Essos. And Dany isn't willing to stop either! It's always been in her, book and show, but I think also that everyone want's so badly for a female character to be strong and rule, that they miss the point that female or male, if you rise with brutality at your core, you have the potential to be cause devastation. GRRM might have feminist leanings but I don't think he hates men on principle, if that makes any sense.
But there's a podacast just out with Bryan Cogman--he has very odd pause when the interviewer asks if everything that Bran has told them is true. Asks if we can trust Bran.
Cogman pauses, laughs, and basically says, "Bran's said what he's said. And that's all I'll say."
Really hoping we aren't getting some creepy "twist."
This is very interesting, although I am not sure I put any more credence with what Cogman has to say at this point. But Bran's S6 vision of the toj was odd, and I thought he was being fed an abbreviated version, but then in S7, I started to question if Bran was able to see everything, or if the weirnet could be feeding him false visions, but this season, I am debating with his actions if he is flat out lying to manipulate people. And if that is so, why did Bloodraven seek him out? Wouldn't Bloodraven have known what would happen? Bran ultimately was the cause the Bloodraven's conscious death. Although the show did that will a physical breeching of the cave, the books might offer a darker look at Bran and Bloodraven's demise.
It's always seemed odd that Bran insisted that Sam tell Jon before the Long Night Battle, also known as the Battle of a Few Hours of Darkness, but Jon's birth didn't serve to affect the outcome. It only served to cause turmoil between Jon and Dany. So, is this actually false information set to be the reason that Dany snap's. Bran is hard to trust fully, although a person wants to, since he was once that innocent young boy who snuggled his direwolf pup and looked with joy at growing up to become a knight. But I can see that Bran is easily attempting to lie and manipulate this situation to his own advantage. But then I am a bit bothered by Bran and Sansa's interactions last season, as it seems Bran is much colder towards her than he should be. I thought this was poor writing but maybe it is cleverly written hints? I thought it was because of what her betrayal of Jon caused, but if Bran wanted it to happen, then Sansa was just as manipulated as Jon was.
1. Jon's being a Targ really aint that important (Black Crow's theory).
2. It is important, but D&D wanted out and so threw the importance off a cliff.
3. He's not a Targ in the books.
No way to know unless we get the books--so, no way to know, I guess.
Well, there is some theme in GRRM's underlying writing that suggests your parents should not matter, because it is you who makes you what you are. Rise or fall, saint or sinner, it's you, and not who you come from. BUT he also ties things to genetics and family lines and gives us thoughts like "son of Winterfell" and "son of Starfall" etc, which indicates that someone things who your people are have some importance. We never hear the phase "son of Dragonstone" or I don't think that we do/
I still think it's possible that we get a reveal in this final episode that Jon is not Rhaegar's son, because it has all been so anticlimatic so far. Oh, Jon rode a dragon... that's it, besides giving Dany the final straw that broke her camel ( ). And the show only has shown us how much Jon is like Ned, even more this season than before, with an almost blind charge ahead in the honor (and not thinking things out very well) department.
If D&D combined Jon and Aegon/Young Griff's arc, which is seems like they have in some ways, then we might have someone claiming to be Rhaegar's son. Except Jon Show/Aejon isn't claiming that. He want's the secret to stay a secret-except he told and we know how that ends... then not of this might be in Jon's arc at all, except perhaps marching south to smooth out the mess, a la Cregan Stark style.
That the children set Bran up to "cleanse" Westeros with Dany and the NK and then rule with the Collective Consciousness. And that he lied to Dany and Jon, and gave Arya the dagger and all of that to do this.
Some are even saying Jon will figure it out and have to kill Bran.
I'm thinking that's all above D&D's creative paygrade. But, who knows?
Well, if this spoiler works out, it wouldn't really surprise me. And it's beyond Dave and Dan for certain, but not GRRM. He has foreshadowed a Jon/Bran conflict since our first chapter of Game. The whole judgement and swing the sword lesson that we see from Bran's POV, but Jon is a witness, and the whole "don't look away" idea has really indicated to me that either Bran kills Jon or Jon kills Bran, and I don't see currently how Bran is ever going to be able to swing the sword, but Jon can and has in his arc. And right now, it appears that Bran is the sketchy character, not Jon!
It's pretty obvious that Dave and Dan are trying to shoehorn GRRM's concepts into the end of the story and this would be one of them. Another is the idea of "the bells" in Dany's snap. The show had made nothing of bells in Dany's arc, but it's strong in the story (I have even tried to tie it to Robert Baratheon but that tinfoild for certain) but book Dany earns her first bell, a blood thirsty Dothraki tradition, after she burns the warlock's, I believe, and she earns several more. And she says she doesn't want them, but she wears them none the less. So, if "the bells" is a concept of her warlord and destructive power, it makes sense. I think D&D could not make that work in the story they had created, so they shoved the bell's into the idea of surrender, that Dany would then ignore. They do have the basic's behind GRRM's ending, but their butterfly effect has taken them so far from how it should be, that the version they are creating is tempered with a great deal of rushed writing and poor choices.
If they wanted to establish bells in Dany's conqueror arc they could have even done it this season, with a few little conversations about Dany's earned bells, her Dothraki tradition. Perhaps they just couldn't figure out how that massive knot of braids would look with a bell or seven hanging off?
- Half a million ++ fans are glutton for punishment??
- shouldn't these busy people be more worried about more pressing issues, eg the increasing interdictions of moon tea north of the wall-to-be?
Ironically, that is probably the number of innocent's that Dany murdered in King's Landing. I think our last estimate from the show told us a million people live there (which didn't fit the show canon from before but who the fook cares about that??) and even though it looks like Dany "killed them all", I suppose survivors will start popping up. Just like the Dothraki and Unsullied after the Battle of the Several Hours of Darkness. They were all dead until the plot needed half of them to survive!
I've been wondering for a while if Bran is telling the truth--either because he knows it and wants to deceive, or because he was being deceived by the NK.
No one seems to question Bran or his motives. He tells Tyrion he doesn't want anything. Yet he waits to tell Jon about his parentage, not letting Sansa or Arya in on it, but telling Sam first--what???
It may just be crappy writing--or it may be crappy writing plus strategy.
Yes, agreed! It's odd!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Another great point. We automatically assume he wants what's best for everyone... but does he? Why didn't he try to prevent the massacre at King's Landing?
I also think this might be a clue. Why, unless you wanted it to happen. Now, it's possible that Bran needs Dany to fail, and the sacrifice of these people are worth the goal in the end (which is very Tywin Lannister) but I also wonder about vengeance. I think I mentioned up thread that I had read a comment on FB that really stopped me in my tracks. Talking about how these "innocent" people of Kings Landing were the same people who threw rocks at Ned and cheered for his execution on the steps of Baelor. So, perhaps Bran, the all-seeing has seen this, and he want's a little vengeance for Ned? I kind of like the idea that personal hatred and vengeance will play a part in this story until the end.
Jon knows nothing. He probably thinks he's being wise,
putting an all-knowing king on the throne - but he doesn't realize he's handing power over to another species. It's almost like body snatchers in a way - he looks like a little boy which is non-threatening to humans, but he's really the hive mind consciousness of the weirwoods.
I really love this ending.
This would be somewhat poetic loss for Jon and gain for Bran but why would anyone make Bran the king? Or for the Sansa lovers out there, make her the queen? I doubt there will be just one ruler in the end of this. That doesn't seem like GRRM's way, and it does seem like D&D are trying to steer GRRM's endgame plot points into their story, even if it seems very clunky.
Why not use Davos for that?!? He's a native of the city, and would have the emotional connection needed for this!
Perhaps they like Maisie as much as Lena, so they decide to use characters for things that doesn't really make a narrative sense?
It might just be that they liked Arya and wanted her there. I would have been even more bored if we were following Davos through the streets, but that is just a personal opinion. We got a view of him and Jon's reaction. That was enough. It makes sense to me that it was Arya because she was fleeing the Red Keep and area around it, just like so many others, while Jon and Davos and Co were still pushing toward the Red Keep at this point. It would seem poetic to me if Arya went to Kings Landing to kill a queen, and she still does, just not the queen she planned. If she does kill Dany, then from her POV we see her reasoning for doing it. And her sneaky assassin skills come in hand. I hope there is still a trampoline for her use in the Red Keep?
Still, the Arya fleeing after being rolled in flour and the Dany's burning shit down scenes both took up to much screen time, IMHO!
However, Sansa has been brought up to be a southron lady, but never visited the south except for in idealized stories. So when she went south, she thought she would actually live in one. That's bad parenting!
When the debacle at the Trident went down, she didn't know how to handle it. Did Ned ever talk to her about it? At all? Not as far as I know! With Arya he at least explains that King's Landing is a dangerous place, but he does NOT do that with Sansa. He seems to be stricktly 100% hands off with her! He should have told her!
Sorry, I don't see letting your child have some childish dreams as bad parenting, although I do see letting your son cut kittens out of the belly of a pregnant cat and not punishing him as a bad parenting (yes, I am looking at your Cersei). I have seen this argument for Sansa before and it's a hard one for me to buy. Whether she wanted to be a lady or a soldier, she was raised by the same parents that raised Arya, who also went south knowing she would live a life of a southron lady (that was Ned and Cat's goal for her, even if Ned got her Syrio) and she did not betray her family. But Sansa did, even if it was unintentional.
I will point out that all the Stark children were raised on the same idealized stories told at Winterfell, but they clearly each focused on different aspects of the stories. Maybe this is all Old Nan's fault, she served as a surrogate parent to multiple generations of Starks...
And we have no idea if Ned talked to Sansa or not. He could have and it's just off screen/off book for us. There is a lot that we miss but know must have occurred. I honestly find it hard to believe that night that Ned talked to Arya he didn't also talk to Sansa. Every time I fought with my brother's and we were banished to our bedrooms, we all got equal talks from my parents, no matter who was to blame. I don't see why Ned would only talk to Arya and not to Sansa. But since this comes to us from Arya's pov, we certainly don't see a conversation with Sansa and Ned. I guess it comes down to what we want to think happened.
That being said, she should have had more brains to think some of this herself, but I also think she should have had way more support than she had. And I do wonder if she would be able to handle facing up to what she did. It reminds me of Dany's mantra "if I look back, I am lost" but without actually thinking it. Just avoiding it all together.
Actually that is a pretty good interpretation of Sansa's actions, that line from Dany's arc!
OMG! Why not petition for an animated series more in line with the books?
Actually, an animated, or completely CGI show would make more sense in this world. The graphics on some video games are absolutely stunning! Settings and characters that can go on as long as the stories need to, not actors that age like the rest of us, dragons and direwolves and krakens from the deep, deep sea, a world of characters and casting.
And people have to be nuts if they think the actor's would really give up another year or two of their lives and career's to reshoot this thing. So unrealistic!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
The COTF, as part of the Pact, offered to give men access to the weirnet, effectively creating the first human greenseers. Men jumped at this opportunity, of course, as knowledge = power. Or so they thought. Each Great House can trace its descent to a legendary ruler who in almost all cases ruled for hundreds of years. And who had magical abilities not normally seen in humans. Just as each Great House built their castle around a weirwood tree, so each of them had a family member turned into a greenseer. This person ruled for a long time, and their descendants after them. But here is the catch: the weirnet takes over the individual (a concept also explored in GRRM's The Glass Flower). Show-Bran demonstrates this very clearly, as does book BR. And who are the other consciousnesses in the weirnet? The previous greenseers, primarily, or in any case 99% would be COTF. So their voices would carry great influence in the decision making of the current greenseer, even if he is human. Meaning it was actually the COTF, or the weirwood trees depending on how you see it, who were ruling the Great Houses of Men.
Somewhere in history, men stopped being greenseers. I can't explain why, but maybe the Long Night? It seems like the Long Night and the imbalance of the seasons could be linked somehow to the human greenseers messing things up. In any case, even after they stopped having their own greenseers, the various Houses kept their trees and continued praying to them until the Andals came, so it doesn't seem like Men figured out that the trees were ruling them. And by losing greenseers, men lost an incredible amount of knowledge. Like the COTF, the First Men who had greenseers had no need for written language - this is why the loss of greenseers would equal the loss of virtually all accumulated knowledge, possibly accumulated over thousands of years. What a major setback! But also, men were now free and no longer being influenced by the COTF.
YUP! I'm guessing the NK kept the power for dominance, not for "singing the song of the earth"--the stories say that the children taught Brandon the Builder a song--a language.
And if the NK used that badly--he becomes the Night's King--dominance.
Maester Sam, shymaid, stdaga, I'm heading out for Budapest. Hopefully, I'll be able to rejoin the convo--but not sure how well my internet connection will work at with my family.
And shymaid--I think some of it is in voice 's Weirwood Ghost thread--but he'd obviously know much better than I.
Have fun watching whatever D&D do with this!!!
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
From the CotFs thought, yes. I was thinking more in line if
Bran was chosen as king by the men and women still alive at the end, as they definitely would take this into consideration.
But if Valar Morghulis, then it might not matter in the end.
I see your point. I assume they'll find a way around this, somehow.
As for Valar Morghulis... I'm still curious to see how the Faceless Men fit into all this. The parallels are too strong to be a coincidence, and their motto appears to also be the COTF's mission statement. But what's the point of only killing the occasional odd target, when you actually want all men to die? They may of course be responsible for the Doom of Valyria, which took out a major threat to Westeros and the trees. But what are they up to now??
And around and around we go! Time is but a wheel! It really makes you question, including what if they have all men kill each other, who will take their place to continue the greenseers?
They might not need to kill all men. As long as men stay obedient to their greenseer overlords (aka the Old Gods), a small, sustainable population may be allowed to go on - as was the case for the COTF. (I now have more hope than ever that they will end up having a cool backstory! All those bones in the cave must have come from somewhere - so what happened? A giant battle underground in which almost all the Children died to defend their greenseer? Sound familiar? )
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
I also think this might be a clue. Why, unless you wanted it to happen. Now, it's possible that Bran needs Dany to fail, and the sacrifice of these people are worth the goal in the end (which is very Tywin Lannister) but I also wonder about vengeance. I think I mentioned up thread that I had read a comment on FB that really stopped me in my tracks. Talking about how these "innocent" people of Kings Landing were the same people who threw rocks at Ned and cheered for his execution on the steps of Baelor. So, perhaps Bran, the all-seeing has seen this, and he want's a little vengeance for Ned? I kind of like the idea that personal hatred and vengeance will play a part in this story until the end.
I like it too. Men being destroyed by their own nature. Very GRRM! And that comment just stopped me in my tracks as well! Those evil cunts, throwing rocks at poor Ned! They deserved everything they got, and then some! (Not really. I am aware that most of those civilians had nothing to do with Ned's death, and even the ones that cheered assumed he really was a traitor. But I can totally see how that distinction would be lost on a 7 year old!)
This would be somewhat poetic loss for Jon and gain for Bran but why would anyone make Bran the king? Or for the Sansa lovers out there, make her the queen? I doubt there will be just one ruler in the end of this. That doesn't seem like GRRM's way, and it does seem like D&D are trying to steer GRRM's endgame plot points into their story, even if it seems very clunky.
I am not at all convinced that Jon will even be alive by the end of the story. Let alone in any state to rule a kingdom. To me, it looks very much as though House Stark may be the only Great House to survive the coming Ragnarok. (Just as they first rose after the first Long Night. Coincidence?) So there will not be many claimants left. We have precedent for a Great Council, and we already saw how in Winterfell, everyone automatically believed everything weirBran said. It seems plausible to me that he would be elected by whoever is left, believing him to be the most qualified. He may even rule well, having successfully eliminated 90% of those pesky humans and returning Westeros to its original state, with everyone living off the land in peace. (If you haven't read And Seven Times Never Kill Man, I HIGHLY recommend it, as it is extremely relevant to this discussion. You can find it for free on the internet, and read it in less than an hour.)
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
would be gullible enough to hand over control of the Realm to a greenseer. While Bran is technically human, he is really the collective consciousness of the weirnet, as you pointed out! So now the TREES are ruling Westeros.
That's actually an AMAZING ending. Holy shit!!! (Calling voice !) It won't come across in the show, of course, and everyone will hate it because they don't get it - but I could see GRRM doing something like this. It would in fact fit VERY well with other endings he's written. Damn I think you might have solved it.
I dig the collective consciousness stuff, but I'm not a fan of Bran being called the last/only greenseer. Imo, there is contrary evidence to that in the books, and the show has been unclear as to what purpose, if anything, greenseers have.
And for myself, the Trees themselves will always be the real (brain) collective consciousness for the continent/planet. Bran, Bloodraven, and the connected cotf in that cave (and others?) are merely connecting to the wifi signal the trees are broadcasting.
That being said, it would be cool if Bran had a purpose in the show. Him being the new NK would make wolfmaid7 happy certainly, even if I prefer Bran the Builder to be the one and only keeper of that title.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."