stdaga , I have been looking for proof Tywin and Arryn planned the rebellion together and connecting Dorne to Howland makes for some interesting theories
Howland being connected to Dorne in some way other than the toj?
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I just watched "Quentyn is Alive" and Quentyn is Alive Q&A" by PJ, well, actually I listened to them. It's just two videos, but they have not reference to the floor disparity. They almost exclusively focus on the actual event of him getting burned, the various tellings of the story, and other examples of deception by burning in ASOIAF.
I will have to watch them, since it's only 2 video's. It doesn't sound like it addresses the pyramid floor discrepancy at all, but the situation with the dragons is worth a look over, and the oddness to Quentyn's death. Missendei's care of him. What happened to the body after his death. etc
It seems highly unlikely that he would have been there. And it is also very likely that stories of the place loomed in the young child's imagination. But, wouldn't it have some interesting implications if it is a clue that he has been there?
If Viserys went to the Eyrie, or even traveled to the Vale as a child and saw the Eyrie, I would think it would stick in his mind. It's probably one of the most striking castles that we have in the story. But if he had traveled to the Eyrie, it would make a person wonder why. By the time he was born, Aerys was very protective of his safety and he wasn't even allowed to be alone with his own mother. I don't really know if we hear about Viserys ever traveling out of the Red Keep until he fled during the Rebellion. For what reason would he have ever been in the Vale? Maybe his true path of escape from Westeros took him through the Vale?
But another thought I had thought of last night was that the Targaryen's do connect to the Vale of Arryn. The Targaryen's have married into the Arryn family several times, and Rhaenyra, who battled for the realm against her half-brother, was half Arryn. We don't know if Viserys was a dreamer, but what if he was, and he dreamt of the past, and some connection to the valley and mountains and high fortress of the Arryn's.
Either dreams or visiting in his youth might give him a reason to highlight those places to Dany.
It's also possible that he mentioned lot's of places to Dany but for some reason the Vale and the Eyrie stood out to her more than other places? Connected to her in some way?
This list doesn't include The North or the Stromlands. The places on this list don't seem related to his resentments (except maybe Casterly Rock). So they must have to do with childhood recollections. Since she is contrasting his memories with her lack of memories, the implication is that Vis knows these places.
Again, I find it hard to imagine that Viserys, the protected younger son of Aerys, was traveling much around the realm, especially at his young age. And anything implied is dangerous. So, why do certain places stick in his memory more than others? Are his memories planted too, just like we suspect Dany's are? Could both Viserys and Dany be impostors? I know this idea has been raised in the past, but I have never given it much of a thought. After all, in Dany's vision, when she see's Rhaegar, she thinks that he looks very like Viserys but is taller. So there is a striking resemblance between the two brother's. Which leads me to think that they are related in some way.
I do think it's kind of odd that the mentions from Viserys include Casterly Rock, but not Storm's End, which is another of the more unique castles in the realm. Perhaps Winterfell is a regular castle, just on a much larger scale, but if Viserys was telling stories of the past of Westeros, one would think that castles like Storm's End and Winterfell that were built by the legendary Brandon the Builder would get a mention. Also the wall, is something that doesn't get mentioned in Dany's thoughts from Viserys stories, and the wall is quite unique to Westeros.
Maybe it was all an attempt at world building and GRRM didn't give it as much thought as we are?
If RLJ, I expect that our gimmickie and trite expectations will be subverted
You have more hope than me, however, if it is the case, then I hope you are correct. And I hope I can allow my mind to be open to it. At this point, I have been slapped at (and often quite rudely) so many times by people (not on this site, but at Westeros) who can't imagine there is any other path than RLJ, that I have probably built a little wall against it.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
If Viserys went to the Eyrie, or even traveled to the Vale as a child and saw the Eyrie, I would think it would stick in his mind. It's probably one of the most striking castles that we have in the story. But if he had traveled to the Eyrie, it would make a person wonder why.
Yes, if he travelled to the Eyrie, then some things need to be re-examined. Jon Arryn's role in RR and especially the events leading to it has been a topic of much speculation with little evidence. If Aerys trusted him, we need some new theories. If Vis knew Ned and Robert, that could take us some interesting places. But that list is a pretty thin piece of evidence
It's also possible that he mentioned lot's of places to Dany but for some reason the Vale and the Eyrie stood out to her more than other places? Connected to her in some way?
That is possible, but her thought that the places are just words to her implies that they don't have much place in her imagination. She thinks they were real to her brother, but not to her. But they may have had a prominent place in his imagination, even if he was never there
Maybe it was all an attempt at world building and GRRM didn't give it as much thought as we are?
Oh, that is a possibility with much of our parsing and explanation. He may have just wanted to salt the text with a few names that would be important at some point, nothing else. But we rely a fair amount on an eye color, a breast size, an omitted detail, or a seemingly out-of-place capitalization. And some of those will turn out to be insignificant. This list may be one of those, but maybe not
Yes, if he travelled to the Eyrie, then some things need to be re-examined. Jon Arryn's role in RR and especially the events leading to it has been a topic of much speculation with little evidence. If Aerys trusted him, we need some new theories. If Vis knew Ned and Robert, that could take us some interesting places. But that list is a pretty thin piece of evidence
If Viserys was ever in the Eyrie, there are two options. Either before the rebellion or during the rebellion. Viserys was eight, I think, at the time of the rebellion. That sounds about right to have memories of such places. If it was earlier in his life, how defined could his memories be?
Another option is that Viserys wasn't at those places at all, but someone who knew them well talked to him about them. Who could that have been? Aerys? It seems like he once might have been close to some great lords, around the time of the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Could he have traveled to the Eyrie at this time. Aerys would have certainly visited Casterly Rock, since there was a tourney there that he attended, the tourney to celebrate Viserys birth. Other options for talking about such places to Viserys could have been the Kingsguard.
If Viserys ever knew Ned and Robert, he does not talk kindly about them at the start of our story. The Usurper and his dogs is how he refers to them. I would assume that Viserys would have met Tywin at some point, since Tywin was Aerys' hand. But what about Ned and Robert? I don't really have a good thought process to help you out, but I hope you keep working on it.
That is possible, but her thought that the places are just words to her implies that they don't have much place in her imagination. She thinks they were real to her brother, but not to her. But they may have had a prominent place in his imagination, even if he was never there
Yes. And Yes. Real to Viserys and then becoming real to Dany in the tales he told. Or falsely real to them both through the tales told by other's.
Oh, that is a possibility with much of our parsing and explanation. He may have just wanted to salt the text with a few names that would be important at some point, nothing else. But we rely a fair amount on an eye color, a breast size, an omitted detail, or a seemingly out-of-place capitalization. And some of those will turn out to be insignificant. This list may be one of those, but maybe not
And we will have no idea what is important information in solving a puzzle or what is inconsequential world building until we get a conclusion to the story. But until then, I guess it pays to continue to explore and discuss.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Anyone seen or heard of any theories on this idea of Quentyn's chapters in the great pyramid of Meereen?
sorry, no,
i have to admit that the Meereen story never really caught my interest. not sure what the author was on at the time but it seemed to have dribbled from his pen.
Aside from the local political situation mimicking our world, i am still wondering what it is doing in the Song.
Perhaps it has to do with whether Quentyn could or could not have done something else in the story because of where his quarters are located.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
i have to admit that the Meereen story never really caught my interest. not sure what the author was on at the time but it seemed to have dribbled from his pen.
Aside from the local political situation mimicking our world, i am still wondering what it is doing in the Song.
It's an odd little line about the different floor's in the pyramid, but it certainly caught my attention.
I am doing a (very slow) reread of Dance right now, but I had just been discussing Barristan's potential as a hidden ally of Robert's during the Rebellion, so I was looking into Barristan's POV chapters and this idea of the discrepancy of the placement of Quentyn's chambers stood out to me. It seems darn odd.
Perhaps it has to do with whether Quentyn could or could not have done something else in the story because of where his quarters are located.
Maybe so. Your statement made me actually think of the time that Dany dreams she is having sex with Hizdar who's lips are bruised and his manhood is cold as ice but it's actually a drunk Daario in her bed, and he is passed out cold. But this is before her actual marriage to Hizdar, although it's already being planned. And just a bit later in this chapter, is when she meet's Quentyn and he proposes to her. Is Dany's dream a premonition of Quentyn? It had seemed to me to hint at Euron with the bruised lips, but now I am wondering about Quentyn, or one of his surviving travel companions, Gerris Drinkwater and Archibald Yronwood. Not that I think Quentyn is the type to sneak into Dany's bed, but I bet Gerris Drinkwater is. And it's he that Dany is initially quite attracted to, while Daario stand beside her and Hizdar is her fiance. Ah, what a tangled mess.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I had forgotten about that. It is an odd little thing and I agree, it seems very unlikely that it is insignificant. It may be necessary to pay close attention to any information about the layout of the place and of Quentyn's coming and going to try to make sense of it
I had never noticed that oddness before. One floor down versus two. But now I am curious. It's on my mental list of theories to look up. But I am toying with the idea that perhaps we might have a faceless man in play, someone who could take Quentyn's face but not get all the details quite right. But if this is the case, why? Like I said, I need to see if this has been commented on on other boards or if other people focused on Quentyn have some thoughts on this.
Wraith , do you have any thoughts on this? I know you have some idea's on what is going on with Quentyn. voicearrysfleascanitryto Anyone seen or heard of any theories on this idea of Quentyn's chapters in the great pyramid of Meereen?
You mean my ideas on the POV Quentyn not being the actually son of Doran but a child swapped at the Water Gardens?
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
You mean my ideas on the POV Quentyn not being the actually son of Doran but a child swapped at the Water Gardens?
Not that specifically, but I noticed something odd in this Barristan chapter in regards to where Quentyn was staying in the Great Pyramid. At the time of the following quote, Barristan and Quentyn and Co are in the audience chamber, second level from the top. Here are a few quotes to establish the higher floor's in the pyramid. The Great Pyramid is 800 ft tall, and Dany's chamber's and Barristan's small apartments are on the highest level, with the great audience chamber being below that, so second floor down.
The Great Pyramid shouldered eight hundred feet into the sky, from its huge square base to the lofty apex where the queen kept her private chambers, surrounded by greenery and fragrant pools. As a cool blue dawn broke over the city, Dany walked out onto the terrace. To the west sunlight blazed off the golden domes of the Temple of the Graces, and etched deep shadows behind the stepped pyramids of the mighty. In some of those pyramids, the Sons of the Harpy are plotting new murders even now, and I am powerless to stop them. ADWD-Daenerys I
Her audience chamber was on the level below, an echoing high-ceilinged room with walls of purple marble. It was a chilly place for all its grandeur. There had been a throne there, a fantastic thing of carved and gilded wood in the shape of a savage harpy. She had taken one long look and commanded it be broken up for firewood. "I will not sit in the harpy's lap," she told them. Instead she sat upon a simple ebony bench. It served, though she had heard the Meereenese muttering that it did not befit a queen. ASOS-Daenerys VI
Now, the oddity of which floor Quentyn is staying on.
The Dornishmen did not have as far to go as most. As befit his rank and station, Quentyn Martell had been given quarters within the Great Pyramid, two levels down—a handsome suite of rooms with its own privy and walled terrace. Perhaps that was why he and his companions lingered, waiting until the press had lessened before beginning to make their way toward the steps.
Ser Barristan watched them, thoughtful. What would Daenerys want? he asked himself. He thought he knew. The old knight strode across the hall, his long white cloak rippling behind him. He caught the Dornishmen at the top of the steps. "Your father's court was never half so lively," he heard Drinkwater japing.
"Prince Quentyn," Selmy called. "Might I beg a word?"
Quentyn Martell turned. "Ser Barristan. Of course. My chambers are one level down."
No. "It is not my place to counsel you, Prince Quentyn … but if I were you, I would not return to my chambers. You and your friends should go down the steps and leave."
Prince Quentyn stared. "Leave the pyramid?"
"Leave the city. Return to Dorne."
The Dornishmen exchanged a look. "Our arms and armor are back in our apartments," said Gerris Drinkwater. "Not to mention most of the coin that we have left."
"Swords can be replaced," said Ser Barristan. "I can provide you with coin enough for passage back to Dorne. Prince Quentyn, the king made note of you today. He frowned." ADWD-The Discarded Knight
I understand that this No that Barristan thinks can be read as No, you should not return to your chambers because Hizdar might have set a trap for you. The other thing is that the No, could mean that Barristan thinks Quentyn is wrong about which floor he is staying on. Because we have already established that the Dornishmen have been given chambers two levels below the audience chamber, and then Quentyn says his chambers are only one floor below. I have a hard time imagining this could be a mistake of GRRM's, since it's all in the same passage. So, what gives with Quentyn's chambers and what does it mean?
Also, I guess Barristan's reference of Quentyn's chambers being "two floor's down" might mean from the apex, while Quentyn's reference from his chambers location being "one floor down" from the audience chamber, but if that is the case, it's damn awkward text, and should be clarified. But maybe that's it and I am just looking at this in too finite a manner.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.