Who are Jon's parents?

We might find out that Edric is a Dayne family name, and that Ned isn't an unusual nickname for a Dayne Lord. It's possible Edric was named in spite of Eddard Stark, not in honor of him.

Ned Dayne certainly seems to think highly of Ned Stark, though, so I doubt that House Dayne hates Ned Stark. They might honor him because he returned their family sword when he could have claimed in by right of conquest. Dawn would be a prize worth keeping!

According to Cat, Ned does have the whispers of Ashara stopped at Wintefell, and he seems to show some rage toward Catelyn when she speaks of Ashara, but we see though Ned's perspective that Cersei throws Ashara right into his face and Ned doesn't react to this at all. It's like it doesn't matter to him. Not angry, not emotional. As to Catelyn's memory, we don't really know how that conversation went down, or the exact words spoken, and it's also influenced by Catelyn's own bias, which makes it even harder to interpret.

I agree that something certainly happened that we don't know about. Several somethings. And that probably connects to the tower of joy. It might also connect to Starfall, but it might also connect to a "tower long fallen" that it at neither of those places.

stdaga, Wraith,

I was reading the Last Hearth and they were talking about parentage possibilities for Jon when I got an idea. If Rhaegar is not Jon's father and I know about 90 percent of this sub believes he is , we need a dark secret for Ned not to tell anyone who Jon's father and mother are. Agreed? We know RICKARD married his first cousin in order to pacify a cadet branch of Starks who had a credible claim on Winterfell. But what if he accidentally triggered a dormant ice gene that enables the Starks to control the White Walkers? I compare it to the excellent series Preston did on the failure of the Targaryens to make sure the dragon hatching gene survived. My theory is that Jon is the product of Starkcest and combined with his double stark grandparents is like a proto Stark , perhaps similar to the ancient Kings of winter. What do you think about the possibility of more incest in the past? What if the Starks did the same thing as the Valyrians did for thousands of years in order to preserve the stark and WW DNA? This is just idle speculation on my part based on a hunch about the ancient Starks but I need someone smarter than me to develop this theory and determine if it has legs. Any takers. /u/Prestonjacobs

stdaga,

A Game of Thrones - Eddard IX

Good to you, Ned thought hollowly. "I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting." She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? "Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert's bastards?" "Well, he has more than you, for a start."

A Game of Thrones - Eddard IX

Littlefinger shook the rain from his hair and laughed. "Now I see. Lord Arryn learned that His Grace had filled the bellies of some whores and fishwives, and for that he had to be silenced. Small wonder. Allow a man like that to live, and next he's like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east." There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not. The rain was falling harder now, stinging the eyes and drumming against the ground. Rivers of black water were running down the hill when Jory called out, "My lord," his voice hoarse with alarm. And in an instant, the street was full of soldiers.

Lust + Brothels = Robert or Brandon not Rhaegar . Agreed ?

Actually, I have speculated on this for years, although it's unpopular with most of the fandom. I do think Starkcest will be revealed to be a quite important part of this puzzle, and it will either be completing it that is important, or defying the tradition that is important. I speculate that perhaps the daughter of Torrhen's that was married to a Vale lord was actually meant to be a bride to one of her brother's, and this is why the brothers were so upset when she was forced to marry Ronnel Arryn. It broke a tradition, one that was probably still taking place on the downlow. While the Faith of the Seven has a relatively minor influence on the north, there are still maester's who would report this information, though, so it almost defies logic that we haven't heart about potential Stark-cest before. I think the Bael Tale is about that, and that babe is blamed on the bard but is a product of Starkcest in some way. And yes, I think it's to keep the families genetic gifts strong. And I think that the Stark family started in incest, from Brandon of the Bloody Blade and Rose of Red (nee Blue) Lake. Sibling relationships are a key in this story.

We have the theme laid out to us with the Targaryen's, and their reason's for performing this. There is the Lannister twin's incest also, and they are the product of cousins who married, so I think that the hidden completion to this trifecta of incest will lie in the Stark family. Actually, it feels so obvious to me sometimes, I am annoyed with myself for not seeing it sooner. But now, it's been probably 3 or more years that I am damn well convinced that Jon is the product of Lyanna and one of her brothers (and speculation before that), although depending on time line, Rickard is possible, too. We have Craster and his daughters for some reason, although I speculate that parent incest while be seen as more of an abomination on the story, while sibling incest will be a lesser taboo.




"Yes, it was always my intention: to play with the reader’s expectations. Before I was a writer I was a voracious reader and I am still, and I have read many, many books with very predictable plots. As a reader, what I seek is a book that delights and surprises me. I want to not know what is gonna happen. For me, that’s the essence of storytelling and for this reason I want my readers to turn the pages with increasing fever: to know what happens next. There are a lot of expectations, mainly in the fantasy genre, which you have the hero and he is the chosen one, and he is always protected by his destiny. I didn’t want it for my books." -GRRM

Most people who favor RLJ, when confronted with this quote, will respond with the idea that we have no idea what GRRM might intend to do with Jon as the product of this ice and fire combo. That while he is probably not destined to rule the seven kingdom's, the blood potential in him still strongly hints at either great or terrible things. Or maybe Jon was produced to become a great sacrifice, that's another one I have come across. And really, all of those things are possible, but I tend to think if something is strongly implied by the text, you should be aware you are being mislead, and RLJ is strongly implied in the text. But after you start looking for firm idea's in the text to tie it all together, things are not that neat and then suddenly, the bow that your thought was secure and tight has unraveled and cannot be tied again. GRRM is playing with us, no doubt.



I am not sure that it's as clear as that. Granted, nothing in what we know about Rhaegar hints at lust or brothels, but we don't have those hints with Tywin either, but we find a whore in his bed (and perhaps the passage to a brothel was built by him) so even characters who are strongly controlled can be tied to lustful actions. Still, it does seem that Brandon and Robert are the more obvious lustful people we focus on, as well as perhaps Tyrion. I will also say that Ned doesn't strike the reader as particularly lustful, more tied to duty or even divine love, when it comes to sex, but Ned also tells us that he understand lust, and interestingly, it causes him to see Jon Snow's face. Now, Jon looks like Eddard, but that doesn't need to mean they are father and son (though I strongly think they are). Yet, in this instant, it seems to tie Jon to being conceived because of lust (not some great prophecy) and it also seems to tell us that Jon is indeed a bastard, at least in Eddard's eyes. Personally, I think it's the people that lust seems not related to that we should be watching out for in Jon's parentage mystery, not the obviously lustful ones, although there are a couple hints that could tie Robert to being Jon's father.

Another example of a none lustful person succumbing to lust is Stannis and his relationship with Melisandre. That is lust that leads to darkness and shadow babies, so it's not just the lustful that stray and it's not just the lustful that are tied to babes outside of marriage! What out for the Tywin's and Stannis's of the story, and probably the Ned Stark's, as well!

I do think that the "promise" that Ned focuses on from Lyanna is tied to Dany, and I think that Lyanna was determined to protect Dany, or the potential of her, as a child, and at her death, she passed that protective promise on to Ned. I also think that Dany could have been raised or hidden in a brothel at some time of her life, perhaps even conceived in one. And while I think that Lyanna might also have spent time in a brothel, I tend not to think of her as Dany's mother, although Dany does have some interesting ties to ice and wolves and winter in her story. If the Dayne's and Stark's turn out to be related, this will make a lot of sense, but otherwise, that does confuse me in Dany's story line.

Jon does seem to be tied to the idea of swords in the story, and the Sword of the Morning constellation does come up in his story line, but I am not sure that means he is a Dayne. It's possible, though. I can see that Lyanna would be more drawn to Arthur than Rhaegar, so if that is a reveal eventually, it will make some sense. Jon is also strongly tied to the Ice Dragon's, and while the constellation is tied more to Bran's storyline than Jon's, the concept of an ice dragon often comes up in Jon's POV.

I think oathbreaking matters to whom ever takes vows, regardless of who your parents are. Jon is young and see's things in more absolutes than he might as an older person. Oathbreaking is a theme over and over in his story, first with the night he fled the Night's Watch and Ghost and his friends brought him back, then to the Ygritte storyline, and then right up to his decision to march on Winterfell. I do think Oathbreaking will tie to Jon's parentage in some way.

Much of what we think about Arthur is speculation, including whether he would stray from his vows for a good reason (Jon felt like he had a good reason with Ygritte, although he liked it well enough) and we might find this out in Arthur's story. There are certainly kingsguard who have not stuck to their vows, Jaime being the first and foremost of those, but we hear of plenty of them as the story is revealed, so it's quite possible we will find this out as well about Atthur. Especially since Jaime tries to emulate Arthur so much, and it would be ironic that Jaime didn't know that Arthur strayed from his vows as well. Although, Jaime strays with his sister, and potentially, this could have happened with Arthur as well. I think we will find out that Arthur is much more conflicted than is initially presented to us, and that his honor as a knight is not so pure. Does that mean he is Jon's father? Maybe, maybe not, but there is potential for that outcome.

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Jon might not be a Dayne but still a bastard as I think Arthur and Lyanna were not married.
As far as I remember, oathbreaking by Kingsguards were punished with death in the time Aerys was alive and also later. Jamie did oathbreaking, but still nobody dared to talk about it as the punishment would still be the same. It was not like KG could run around and sleep with women. In think it is also a difference if Jamie or Aerys Oakheart broke a vow or the highly reputated Arthur Dayne. Noble, loyal as he was. Arthur Dayne had quite a reputation in Westeros and also for House Dayne. He was the star of the family, holder of the title Sword of the Morning and wielder of Dawn. He was more special, so to say.

I was wondering if the Daynes named their heir after Ned Stark because Ned maybe saved their reputation and that of Arthur Dayne by making the baby bastard his own.
In case Arthur ran away witn Lyanna, causing the war, the almost-extinction of House Targaryen etc. then people would spit on the Dayne name. All the good things Arthur ever did would be forgotten.
We don't know what role Lyanna had in this as we know nothing of her doing after the year passed after Harrenhall tourney.

We must also not forget the Aerys Oakheart chapter when he sleeps with Arianne Martell. He is in inner conflict but still can't help his nature and lust. In fact we do not need the Oakheart character in the book or for the plot but still Martin gave him a whole chapter that is about this. And in it I also see Aemons speech about Oathbreaking and what it means for a Kingsguard (let us forget Jamie a moment).
And it also means something that Aemon gives this speech to Jon. Martin chooses words wisely and he never writes passages to be fillers. So I guess this plays a part and are hints for a A+L=J parentage. It would be matter for the plot if Jon would be Arthurs bastard son wielding Dawn.

I highly recommend this video. And then we can discuss Arthur+Lyanna=Jon and Rhaegar+Ashara=Dany again.



If the Daynes are indeed Dragonlords and even more: descendents of the Amethyst Empress herself, then it would make a total different picture about Rhaegar and his obsession.
If it was not Dyanna Daynes looks that mattered, but her dragon-hatching-genetics, then we get another a whole other ways possible.

stdaga, he said there is evidence but doubts Martin is writing that story