He sleeps in Ned's bedchamber, he mentions liking to have sex with Kyra in Ned's bed. But I don't remember if it's specified whether the bed is made out of weirwood.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
He sleeps in Ned's bedchamber, he mentions liking to have sex with Kyra in Ned's bed. But I don't remember if it's specified whether the bed is made out of weirwood.
Bran's headboard most certainly is, and if the second son has a headboard of weirwood, I'd think the Lord of Winterfell likely would as well.
Granted it's not explicitly stated, but I think it's a decent assumption to make.
He sleeps in Ned's bedchamber, he mentions liking to have sex with Kyra in Ned's bed. But I don't remember if it's specified whether the bed is made out of weirwood.
Bran's headboard most certainly is, and if the second son has a headboard of weirwood, I'd think the Lord of Winterfell likely would as well.
Granted it's not explicitly stated, but I think it's a decent assumption to make.
I agree, if it's mentioned a bed is made of weirwood, I think you could assume that about the others, I glossed over that and never caught it, I guess.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
A few months ago in Heresy, someone nicknamed a Heretic something funny because they'd start a topic like this, and then never come back to it. I want to say it was like a grammar term, like dangling participle or something. Anyway, I feel like I'm channeling that right now
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
That would be Mace Cooterian. I do wonder where he wondered to. There were a few of us that used the "..." in a post. Alienarea and I were both called out (in a nice way) and it's been a bit of a running gag between Mace and I since. I do wonder...
Mace Cooterian likes to pop in and talk about Suicide Kings. I remember it was a funny convo. I had thought it was @superunknown5 for some reason. But yeah, starting topics and losing interest. Just like the HotU thread. In my defense, I had already moved to other chapters. Like right now, I'm at Bran I. Took me 2 days to get through Dany I without falling asleep.
::frustrated::
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
So I'm going to copy myself from Heresy, because not all of you look there, and it is my intellectual property (my post from Heresy, not ASOIAF) and my idea kind of ties in with a clue toward Lyanna's death, and Benjen's survival:
I was reading the Theon dream chapter in Clash last night, and I was of the thought that Benjen was dead and just disappeared- you know, like in real life. Until I thought about Theon's dream. All the people in his dream are dead with the exception of Robb- who ends up dying anyway. Rickard, Brandon, Lyanna are all featured, but no Benjen. I didn't notice this before, but I'm pretty sure now that it's deliberate, and Benjen is likely alive.
Another thing to consider is that the people in his dream all died violently- including Robb and Gret Wind later. Which is another indication to me now that Lyanna died violently, as well. I'm not saying she didn't have a baby. Could've had a baby and died in a violent manner.
Here's the passage, even Robb's manner of death is foreshadowed, with multiple wounds (he was stabbed a few times, right?). Ned's mom isn't in the vision, either, but I took that to mean she didn't have a violent death:
That night he dreamed of the feast Ned Stark had thrown when King Robert came to Winterfell. The hall rang with music and laughter, though the cold winds were rising outside. At first it was all wine and roast meat, and Theon was making japes and eyeing the serving girls and having himself a fine time until he noticed that the room was growing darker. The music did not seem so jolly then; he heard discords and strange silences, and notes that hung in the air bleeding. Suddenly the wine turned bitter in his mouth, and when he looked up from his cup he saw that he was dining with the dead. King Robert sat with his guts spilling out on the table from the great gash in his belly, and Lord Eddard was headless beside him. Corpses lined the benches below, grey-brown flesh sloughing off their bones as they raised their cups to toast, worms crawling in and out of the holes that were their eyes. He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to Kings Landing never to return. Mikken and Chayle sat together, one dripping blood and the other water. Benfred Tallhart and his Wild Hares filled most of a table. The millers wife was there as well, and Farlen, even the wildling Theon had killed in the wolfswood the day he had saved Brans life. But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.
And later I said:
When I suggested that violence connected the dead in Theon's dream, I wasn't trying to debunk the idea that Lyanna gave birth. Just because she had a baby, doesn't mean she didn't die violently, as well.
I'm guessing her manner of death is similar to what Theon saw, except that Rickard and Brandon's fates weren't detailed like the others.
The white gown is interesting. Not sure what it symbolizes. The Kingsgaurd, maybe. I think there is imagery of red and white in Ned's fever dream, but I'm not going to look it up right now.
As for Jon, good catch- no, he's not there, either, and we know now that if the NW did kill him, it would be a violent way to go.
Also wondering why those people appear to Theon. Lyanna, Brandon, Rickard wouldn't have met Theon nor have any connection to him. I wonder if some of their ghosts aren't in the crypts. I don't think Rickard and Brandon are. Rickard, at least, was burned. Brandon the shipbuilder/shipwright has a statue, but he was lost at sea. Maybe Lyanna wasn't buried in WF- or she was, but her spirit can roam free because she doesn't have an iron sword.
The statues of Rickard and Brandon do, but if they aren't buried there, their remains wouldn't be warded. As for Ned, I don't know if his bones ever made it to WF.
*I had a semi crackpot notion that the horn of Joramund is with the NW, too, but I need to beef up my idea for a thread. It's not much of an essay
I just chanced upon this thread. It's a really good one Mojo. wolfmaid7 should check it out for sure.
I was thinking, why is Theon of all people allowed into the Feast of the Dead Starks? Is it only because he is sleeping in Ned's bed? Because he grew up at WF? Because Ned was a father figure? All of the above/something else?
It seems like there's some real contact here, but contact with what?
Are the ghosts of dead Starks feasting together in weirnet? Seems unlikely to me.
Everyone present makes sense to me more or less, except for dreaming Theon... and King Robert. Why the hell is Robert there?
Robert Baratheon's presence seems very peculiar in this place. Every person present, even the wildling, are northmen. Might be one more tidbit in favor of Robert being connected to House Stark more intimately than we realize, no?
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
voice I thought originally Robert was included because of his violent death. Robert's death was kind of in line with the family members who died, or linear I guess. Lyanna goes gets "kidnapped" then Brandon & Rickard die as a result, Robert becomes king as a result. Then Ned dies because of Robert, indirectly, so on and so forth.
It could be a tie to Lyanna though, that was just the idea I had re: relevance
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
So I'm going to copy myself from Heresy, because not all of you look there, and it is my intellectual property (my post from Heresy, not ASOIAF) and my idea kind of ties in with a clue toward Lyanna's death, and Benjen's survival:
I was reading the Theon dream chapter in Clash last night, and I was of the thought that Benjen was dead and just disappeared- you know, like in real life. Until I thought about Theon's dream. All the people in his dream are dead with the exception of Robb- who ends up dying anyway. Rickard, Brandon, Lyanna are all featured, but no Benjen. I didn't notice this before, but I'm pretty sure now that it's deliberate, and Benjen is likely alive.
Another thing to consider is that the people in his dream all died violently- including Robb and Gret Wind later. Which is another indication to me now that Lyanna died violently, as well. I'm not saying she didn't have a baby. Could've had a baby and died in a violent manner.
Here's the passage, even Robb's manner of death is foreshadowed, with multiple wounds (he was stabbed a few times, right?). Ned's mom isn't in the vision, either, but I took that to mean she didn't have a violent death:
And later I said:
When I suggested that violence connected the dead in Theon's dream, I wasn't trying to debunk the idea that Lyanna gave birth. Just because she had a baby, doesn't mean she didn't die violently, as well.
I'm guessing her manner of death is similar to what Theon saw, except that Rickard and Brandon's fates weren't detailed like the others.
The white gown is interesting. Not sure what it symbolizes. The Kingsgaurd, maybe. I think there is imagery of red and white in Ned's fever dream, but I'm not going to look it up right now.
As for Jon, good catch- no, he's not there, either, and we know now that if the NW did kill him, it would be a violent way to go.
Also wondering why those people appear to Theon. Lyanna, Brandon, Rickard wouldn't have met Theon nor have any connection to him. I wonder if some of their ghosts aren't in the crypts. I don't think Rickard and Brandon are. Rickard, at least, was burned. Brandon the shipbuilder/shipwright has a statue, but he was lost at sea. Maybe Lyanna wasn't buried in WF- or she was, but her spirit can roam free because she doesn't have an iron sword.
The statues of Rickard and Brandon do, but if they aren't buried there, their remains wouldn't be warded. As for Ned, I don't know if his bones ever made it to WF.
*I had a semi crackpot notion that the horn of Joramund is with the NW, too, but I need to beef up my idea for a thread. It's not much of an essay
I just chanced upon this thread. It's a really good one Mojo. wolfmaid7 should check it out for sure.
I was thinking, why is Theon of all people allowed into the Feast of the Dead Starks? Is it only because he is sleeping in Ned's bed? Because he grew up at WF? Because Ned was a father figure? All of the above/something else?
It seems like there's some real contact here, but contact with what?
Are the ghosts of dead Starks feasting together in weirnet? Seems unlikely to me.
Everyone present makes sense to me more or less, except for dreaming Theon... and King Robert. Why the hell is Robert there?
Robert Baratheon's presence seems very peculiar in this place. Every person present, even the wildling, are northmen. Might be one more tidbit in favor of Robert being connected to House Stark more intimately than we realize, no?
It that's the case, it's worth noting who is conspicuously absent. One Rhaegar Targaryen.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
I just chanced upon this thread. It's a really good one Mojo. wolfmaid7 should check it out for sure.
I was thinking, why is Theon of all people allowed into the Feast of the Dead Starks? Is it only because he is sleeping in Ned's bed? Because he grew up at WF? Because Ned was a father figure? All of the above/something else?
It seems like there's some real contact here, but contact with what?
Are the ghosts of dead Starks feasting together in weirnet? Seems unlikely to me.
Everyone present makes sense to me more or less, except for dreaming Theon... and King Robert. Why the hell is Robert there?
Robert Baratheon's presence seems very peculiar in this place. Every person present, even the wildling, are northmen. Might be one more tidbit in favor of Robert being connected to House Stark more intimately than we realize, no?
It that's the case, it's worth noting who is conspicuously absent. One Rhaegar Targaryen.
That's what's weird to me. Robert is present with a bunch of Starks Theon never knew. Why him?
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
It that's the case, it's worth noting who is conspicuously absent. One Rhaegar Targaryen.
That's what's weird to me. Robert is present with a bunch of Starks Theon never knew. Why him?
I just don't understand why Ned would hide Jon from Robert, but maybe to protect him from the future queen. I'm assuming a betrothal would be enough to legitimize Jon as an heir, but...maybe Ned thought Bob would be a bad father? Me wonders.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I just don't understand why Ned would hide Jon from Robert, but maybe to protect him from the future queen. I'm assuming a betrothal would be enough to legitimize Jon as an heir, but...maybe Ned thought Bob would be a bad father? Me wonders.
The 'hiding of Jon' is a quandary that presents itself in virtually any scenario, even RLJ imo. RLJ makes the most sense in terms of it, to protect Jon from Robert, but even that one is not without its issues. First in my mind is that Jon would have been half-Lyanna, and looks like her. Would Robert want to kill Lyanna's only child?
I'm not completely aboard the Robert+Lyanna=Jon train, but this dream does make me wonder. Robert's presence is odd.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
The 'hiding of Jon' is a quandary that presents itself in virtually any scenario, even RLJ imo. RLJ makes the most sense in terms of it, to protect Jon from Robert, but even that one is not without its issues. First in my mind is that Jon would have been half-Lyanna, and looks like her. Would Robert want to kill Lyanna's only child?
I just got into they debate not eh W and so had to look a bunch of stuff up.
Martin makes it VERY clear that Ned fears Robert will massacre children if he feels betrayed. That this, and this alone, drives his desire to kill Dany, no matter what else Robert says. Ned stays VERY firm in this belief.
And it's the same belief he uses when he thinks he must save Cersei's children. Says that Robert can forgive a lot, but not such a betrayal.
So, I think Martin's telling us flat out that Ned fears Robert would hate any child of Lyanna's that wasn't his. Perhaps even hate Lyanna if the sex was consensual. Whether that's actually what Robert would do, Ned clearly fears it. And that perception seems to be significant.
Why Ned would then hide Jon if Robert was his father. . . I don't know. But if the father were anyone else, Martin's made Ned's fear very clear. I just missed it.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.