The 'hiding of Jon' is a quandary that presents itself in virtually any scenario, even RLJ imo. RLJ makes the most sense in terms of it, to protect Jon from Robert, but even that one is not without its issues. First in my mind is that Jon would have been half-Lyanna, and looks like her. Would Robert want to kill Lyanna's only child?
I just got into they debate not eh W and so had to look a bunch of stuff up.
Martin makes it VERY clear that Ned fears Robert will massacre children if he feels betrayed. That this, and this alone, drives his desire to kill Dany, no matter what else Robert says. Ned stays VERY firm in this belief.
And it's the same belief he uses when he thinks he must save Cersei's children. Says that Robert can forgive a lot, but not such a betrayal.
So, I think Martin's telling us flat out that Ned fears Robert would hate any child of Lyanna's that wasn't his. Perhaps even hate Lyanna if the sex was consensual. Whether that's actually what Robert would do, Ned clearly fears it. And that perception seems to be significant.
Why Ned would then hide Jon if Robert was his father. . . I don't know. But if the father were anyone else, Martin's made Ned's fear very clear. I just missed it.
Robert as the father doesn't hold any traction for me. I submit that Slywren has summarised Ned's fear/reasons correctly.
Robert as the father doesn't hold any traction for me. I submit that Slywren has summarised Ned's fear/reasons correctly.
Cheers, mate!
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Robert Baratheon's presence seems very peculiar in this place. Every person present, even the wildling, are northmen. Might be one more tidbit in favor of Robert being connected to House Stark more intimately than we realize, no?
Could it be because of his visit to WF crypts with Ned? The Lords of WF were watching them.
Robert Baratheon's presence seems very peculiar in this place. Every person present, even the wildling, are northmen. Might be one more tidbit in favor of Robert being connected to House Stark more intimately than we realize, no?
Could it be because of his visit to WF crypts with Ned? The Lords of WF were watching them.
Ooh, very nice idea!
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I was reading the Theon dream chapter in Clash last night, and I was of the thought that Benjen was dead and just disappeared- you know, like in real life. Until I thought about Theon's dream. All the people in his dream are dead with the exception of Robb- who ends up dying anyway. Rickard, Brandon, Lyanna are all featured, but no Benjen. I didn't notice this before, but I'm pretty sure now that it's deliberate, and Benjen is likely alive.
just came across your post Mojo and it triggered my very poor memory about a chat with SlyWren over at the W 'A Horn?.." thread wherein we discussed Jon's cryptic dreams, which i paste here:
SoS Sam 4 All my dreams are of the crypts, of the stone kings on their thrones. Sometimes I hear Robb's voice, and my father's, as if they were at a feast. But there's a wall between us, and I know that no place has been set for me.
my comment on that dream at the time:
This one seems to be more of the past, recollecting the King's feast at the start of the story, but a feast for the dead. A feast in which his uncle is not mentioned, btw.
Two dreams, two feasts for the dead and both times Benjen is omitted.
As you may know i spent some time researching Benjen's fate, so your observation adds very nicely to the picture!
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
I was reading the Theon dream chapter in Clash last night, and I was of the thought that Benjen was dead and just disappeared- you know, like in real life. Until I thought about Theon's dream. All the people in his dream are dead with the exception of Robb- who ends up dying anyway. Rickard, Brandon, Lyanna are all featured, but no Benjen. I didn't notice this before, but I'm pretty sure now that it's deliberate, and Benjen is likely alive.
just came across your post Mojo and it triggered my very poor memory about a chat with SlyWren over at the W 'A Horn?.." thread wherein we discussed Jon's cryptic dreams, which i paste here:
SoS Sam 4 All my dreams are of the crypts, of the stone kings on their thrones. Sometimes I hear Robb's voice, and my father's, as if they were at a feast. But there's a wall between us, and I know that no place has been set for me.
my comment on that dream at the time:
This one seems to be more of the past, recollecting the King's feast at the start of the story, but a feast for the dead. A feast in which his uncle is not mentioned, btw.
Two dreams, two feasts for the dead and both times Benjen is omitted.
As you may know i spent some time researching Benjen's fate, so your observation adds very nicely to the picture!
He must have been seeing the same dream...after all swords are now missing from the crypt.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones