Post by Mojo on Aug 11, 2015 5:54:35 GMT
So I'm going to copy myself from Heresy, because not all of you look there, and it is my intellectual property (my post from Heresy, not ASOIAF) and my idea kind of ties in with a clue toward Lyanna's death, and Benjen's survival:
I was reading the Theon dream chapter in Clash last night, and I was of the thought that Benjen was dead and just disappeared- you know, like in real life. Until I thought about Theon's dream. All the people in his dream are dead with the exception of Robb- who ends up dying anyway. Rickard, Brandon, Lyanna are all featured, but no Benjen. I didn't notice this before, but I'm pretty sure now that it's deliberate, and Benjen is likely alive.
Another thing to consider is that the people in his dream all died violently- including Robb and Gret Wind later. Which is another indication to me now that Lyanna died violently, as well. I'm not saying she didn't have a baby. Could've had a baby and died in a violent manner.
Here's the passage, even Robb's manner of death is foreshadowed, with multiple wounds (he was stabbed a few times, right?). Ned's mom isn't in the vision, either, but I took that to mean she didn't have a violent death:
That night he dreamed of the feast Ned Stark had thrown when King Robert came to
Winterfell. The hall rang with music and laughter, though the cold winds were rising outside. At first it was all wine and roast meat, and Theon was making japes and eyeing the serving girls and having himself a fine time until he noticed that the room was growing darker. The music did not seem so jolly then; he heard discords and strange silences, and notes that hung in the air bleeding. Suddenly the wine turned bitter in his mouth, and when he looked up from his cup he saw that he was dining with the dead.
King Robert sat with his guts spilling out on the table from the great gash in his belly,
and Lord Eddard was headless beside him. Corpses lined the benches below, grey-brown flesh sloughing off their bones as they raised their cups to toast, worms crawling in and out of the holes that were their eyes. He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to Kings Landing never to return. Mikken and Chayle sat together, one dripping blood and the other water. Benfred Tallhart and his Wild Hares filled most of a table. The millers wife was there as well, and Farlen, even the wildling Theon had killed in the wolfswood the day he had saved Brans life.
But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in
stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.
And later I said:
When I suggested that violence connected the dead in Theon's dream, I wasn't trying to debunk the idea that Lyanna gave birth. Just because she had a baby, doesn't mean she didn't die violently, as well.
I'm guessing her manner of death is similar to what Theon saw, except that Rickard and Brandon's fates weren't detailed like the others.
The white gown is interesting. Not sure what it symbolizes. The Kingsgaurd, maybe. I think there is imagery of red and white in Ned's fever dream, but I'm not going to look it up right now.
As for Jon, good catch- no, he's not there, either, and we know now that if the NW did kill him, it would be a violent way to go.
Also wondering why those people appear to Theon. Lyanna, Brandon, Rickard wouldn't have met Theon nor have any connection to him. I wonder if some of their ghosts aren't in the crypts. I don't think Rickard and Brandon are. Rickard, at least, was burned. Brandon the shipbuilder/shipwright has a statue, but he was lost at sea. Maybe Lyanna wasn't buried in WF- or she was, but her spirit can roam free because she doesn't have an iron sword.
The statues of Rickard and Brandon do, but if they aren't buried there, their remains wouldn't be warded. As for Ned, I don't know if his bones ever made it to WF.
*I had a semi crackpot notion that the horn of Joramund is with the NW, too, but I need to beef up my idea for a thread. It's not much of an essay
I was reading the Theon dream chapter in Clash last night, and I was of the thought that Benjen was dead and just disappeared- you know, like in real life. Until I thought about Theon's dream. All the people in his dream are dead with the exception of Robb- who ends up dying anyway. Rickard, Brandon, Lyanna are all featured, but no Benjen. I didn't notice this before, but I'm pretty sure now that it's deliberate, and Benjen is likely alive.
Another thing to consider is that the people in his dream all died violently- including Robb and Gret Wind later. Which is another indication to me now that Lyanna died violently, as well. I'm not saying she didn't have a baby. Could've had a baby and died in a violent manner.
Here's the passage, even Robb's manner of death is foreshadowed, with multiple wounds (he was stabbed a few times, right?). Ned's mom isn't in the vision, either, but I took that to mean she didn't have a violent death:
That night he dreamed of the feast Ned Stark had thrown when King Robert came to
Winterfell. The hall rang with music and laughter, though the cold winds were rising outside. At first it was all wine and roast meat, and Theon was making japes and eyeing the serving girls and having himself a fine time until he noticed that the room was growing darker. The music did not seem so jolly then; he heard discords and strange silences, and notes that hung in the air bleeding. Suddenly the wine turned bitter in his mouth, and when he looked up from his cup he saw that he was dining with the dead.
King Robert sat with his guts spilling out on the table from the great gash in his belly,
and Lord Eddard was headless beside him. Corpses lined the benches below, grey-brown flesh sloughing off their bones as they raised their cups to toast, worms crawling in and out of the holes that were their eyes. He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to Kings Landing never to return. Mikken and Chayle sat together, one dripping blood and the other water. Benfred Tallhart and his Wild Hares filled most of a table. The millers wife was there as well, and Farlen, even the wildling Theon had killed in the wolfswood the day he had saved Brans life.
But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in
stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.
And later I said:
When I suggested that violence connected the dead in Theon's dream, I wasn't trying to debunk the idea that Lyanna gave birth. Just because she had a baby, doesn't mean she didn't die violently, as well.
I'm guessing her manner of death is similar to what Theon saw, except that Rickard and Brandon's fates weren't detailed like the others.
The white gown is interesting. Not sure what it symbolizes. The Kingsgaurd, maybe. I think there is imagery of red and white in Ned's fever dream, but I'm not going to look it up right now.
As for Jon, good catch- no, he's not there, either, and we know now that if the NW did kill him, it would be a violent way to go.
Also wondering why those people appear to Theon. Lyanna, Brandon, Rickard wouldn't have met Theon nor have any connection to him. I wonder if some of their ghosts aren't in the crypts. I don't think Rickard and Brandon are. Rickard, at least, was burned. Brandon the shipbuilder/shipwright has a statue, but he was lost at sea. Maybe Lyanna wasn't buried in WF- or she was, but her spirit can roam free because she doesn't have an iron sword.
The statues of Rickard and Brandon do, but if they aren't buried there, their remains wouldn't be warded. As for Ned, I don't know if his bones ever made it to WF.
*I had a semi crackpot notion that the horn of Joramund is with the NW, too, but I need to beef up my idea for a thread. It's not much of an essay