@mark171, would the Royces be high enough in status for Ned to be fostered there? I mean, fostering your sons inside your kingdom binds the vassels to you. Good politics. Fostering your sons with other Lords Paramount, good politics again, and you can say that the Vale has Starks as vassels so not an insult to your own people. I can't see the political good in fostering Ned with one of Jon Arryn's vassels, though. Am I missing something obvious?
That's weird about the timeline. No wonder grrm doesn't like it when readers geek out on it :-D He has shitty time-sense!
Nice catch, I didn't think of that. Maybe want to foster with lords equal or greater value...but then we have Dustins with Brandon, as Mark pointed out earlier.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
@mark171, would the Royces be high enough in status for Ned to be fostered there? I mean, fostering your sons inside your kingdom binds the vassels to you. Good politics. Fostering your sons with other Lords Paramount, good politics again, and you can say that the Vale has Starks as vassels so not an insult to your own people. I can't see the political good in fostering Ned with one of Jon Arryn's vassels, though. Am I missing something obvious?
That's weird about the timeline. No wonder grrm doesn't like it when readers geek out on it :-D He has shitty time-sense!
There's two branches of Royces. Ned's great-aunt married into the cadet branch at the Gates of the Moon, who keep that castle for the Arryns ASAWK. And her children were all daughters who married into other Vale houses, so putting him up with the Royces of the Gates of the Moon doesn't really make a whole lick of sense. Putting him with the Arryns however makes good political sense and the families that Ned's cousins married into have equal opportunity to interact with him.
@mark171, would the Royces be high enough in status for Ned to be fostered there? I mean, fostering your sons inside your kingdom binds the vassels to you. Good politics. Fostering your sons with other Lords Paramount, good politics again, and you can say that the Vale has Starks as vassels so not an insult to your own people. I can't see the political good in fostering Ned with one of Jon Arryn's vassels, though. Am I missing something obvious?
That's weird about the timeline. No wonder grrm doesn't like it when readers geek out on it :-D He has shitty time-sense!
Nice catch, I didn't think of that. Maybe want to foster with lords equal or greater value...but then we have Dustins with Brandon, as Mark pointed out earlier.
Which the Morrigan explained, fostering with your own vassals binds them to you--which is partially why Quentyn was fostered with the Ironwoods.
Nice catch, I didn't think of that. Maybe want to foster with lords equal or greater value...but then we have Dustins with Brandon, as Mark pointed out earlier.
Which the Morrigan explained, fostering with your own vassals binds them to you--which is partially why Quentyn was fostered with the Ironwoods.
I thought markg171 said Quentyn was a hostage of the Ironwoods. I'll need to go back and read how he explained it again, because I thought the Martells were overlords. (Sorry Mark). Iirc, the Dornish are kind of like a 3rd world country and engage in riots and guerrilla warfare.
are the Ironwoods a wealthier house? Was the exchange a guarantee of no rebellions?
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
@mark171, would the Royces be high enough in status for Ned to be fostered there?
Well Brandon was fostered with the Dustins so pretty much yeah. I'd think the Royces (the Runestone Royces that is) are a bit higher though than the Dustins as Lord Royce was one of the Lords Declarant against Littlefinger ruling the Vale and they seemingly were the more powerful houses in the Vale if Littlefinger needed to win them over to have any hopes of ruling the Vale.
Which really in itself is also weird. Rickard sent his heir to a vassal's house to be fostered, and his second son to a Lord Paramount. You'd think it would be the other way around really. Brandon, when he becomes Lord of Winterfell, shouldn't have to have needed ties to his own vassals as he'd already would have had their oaths of fealty by being Lord of Winterfell. If anything Benjen, the youngest Stark should have been fostered out to a vassal, but Benjen seemingly never was.
That's weird about the timeline. No wonder grrm doesn't like it when readers geek out on it :-D He has shitty time-sense!
I don't think he really thinks about things too much to worry about it. Plus I mean with a story that's 20 years old, I very much doubt he's trying to keep everything flowing beyond the big picture. IIRC he doesn't re-read the books when he starts writing, he just reads his POVs last chapter and picks things up from there.
Putting him with the Arryns however makes good political sense and the families that Ned's cousins married into have equal opportunity to interact with him.
Which we know basically has to have happened between at least Brandon seeing as Kyle Royce was one of his companions who rode to King's Landing with him. Brandon and Kyle have to have met at some point for this to make any sense and I'd imagine it was either at Harrenhal when Ned, Jon, Robert, Bronze Yohn, and Lord Hunter (AKA all people from the Vale) went, or Brandon visited Ned at some point. But we know there's a connection that Brandon had with Kyle Royce somehow and I think the easiest solution is that he was a friend of Ned's who Brandon met.
I thought markg171 said Quentyn was a hostage of the Ironwoods. I'll need to go back and read how he explained it again, because I thought the Martells were overlords. (Sorry Mark).
Quentyn was a ward, but more in the sense like Theon was a ward than like Ned was. Quentyn was sent to House Yronwood for fostering because Oberyn killed their lord in a duel using poison (that's where he earned the nickname The Red Viper) so it was a way to repair the damage done by Oberyn. He wasn't a hostage but it was more of a "we have your son, let's work this out" kind of situation.
And the Martells are the overlords of Dorne, but House Yronwood is basically just as strong as them, and Yronwoods have sided with the Blackfyres in most of the Rebellions, so there's always kind of a power struggle going on where House Martell needs to keep the Yronwoods in check.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
"You'd best not take any food or drink at Coldmoat, ser. The Red Widow poisoned all her husbands".
"I'm not like to marry her. She's a highborn lady, and I'm Dunk of Flea Bottom, remember?" He frowned. "Just how many husbands has she had, do you know?"
"Four", said Egg, "but no children. Whenever she gives birth, a demon comes by night to carry off the issue. Sam Stoops' wife says she sold her babes unborn to the Lord of the Seven Hells, so he'd teach her his black arts".
#1: Link to Craster and his sons - obvious.
#2: MMD and Mel both mention "the price they paid" to learn the sorcery of shadowbinding in Asshai. And, of course, there are no children in Asshai.
Also Dany sacrificed her child in the tent, and was then able to perform blood magic and raise 3 dragons. Perhaps she is now a maegi, unbeknownst to her.
I didn't realize there were no children in Asshai
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Also Dany sacrificed her child in the tent, and was then able to perform blood magic and raise 3 dragons. Perhaps she is now a maegi, unbeknownst to her.
Also Dany sacrificed her child in the tent, and was then able to perform blood magic and raise 3 dragons. Perhaps she is now a maegi, unbeknownst to her.
I didn't realize there were no children in Asshai
Kind of disturbing when you put it like that...
Lol! Well she did, right? I didn't think about it until Bacon pointed it out, though. She sacrificed the red stallion, Drogo, then MMD in the fire pit, and was able to raise her dragons from the 3 sacrifices after she paid the price. Doesn't she even say something to MMD along the lines of thank you for teaching her, or that she learned from her? Too lazy to look now.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Mojo, I think you are on to something! Perhaps we should take a closer look at the whole "sacrifice of a child" idea in terms of gaining power - seems to me like two obvious stipulations are 1) it has to be YOUR child and 2) it has to be a willing sacrifice. Has some interesting implications re; RLJ, Jon, Summerhall, etc.
SerD, "No Child Left In Asshai" policy comes from the World Book. There are several threads about it at the W, which I would happily post content from were the site not being a total d-bag. But yes, that fact is noted in the WB, and I even mentioned the "price" in one of those threads...I believe the shadowbinders have to commit that which they hold most dear, which is the 'soul' of an unborn child.
ETA: I think the "Melony, Lot 7" memory is of Mel being sold as a child to the Red Temple...IMO the shadowbinding came later.
And interesting how that ties in with the whole Faceless Men thing and the price that is required to deliver the gift...
Post by regular jon umber on Aug 30, 2015 21:34:29 GMT
Not so much a passage as a thought -
What do Harrenhal, Dragonstone, Starfall, Oldtown, and Winterfell have in common? They're all sites of ancient mystery and magic. They're also home to all the players in Rhaegar's great play - Whent, Targaryen, Dayne, Hightower, Stark.
What do Harrenhal, Dragonstone, Starfall, Oldtown, and Winterfell have in common? They're all sites of ancient mystery and magic. They're also home to all the players in Rhaegar's great play - Whent, Targaryen, Dayne, Hightower, Stark.
That makes me go hmmmm....
Dont forget about Storm's End. Ancient warding magic. Did it belong to the dragon lords before? And of course we have the wall, that was built with blood, and has that ancient portal at the night's fort- and the wall was supposedly built by Brandon the Builder, right?
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Anytime I come across something that was built with blood in the ASOIAF books, I think to myself "Shit is going to get real here at some point." Or I am completely off the wall, could be either.