I think it's odd that during the Sansa-Willas plot, it's revealed that Willas Tyrell is twice her age, the heir of Highgarden, but still isn't betrothed. Lame or not, next in line to be not just the lord of his house, but warden of the south. Plus, they're rich. Also, speaking of wardens of the south, I'm assuming it was Highgarden because Dorne remained independent for so long- I'm guessing Dorne is going to secede again before the dealing's done.
I believe it was mentioned somewhere that the Tyrells were Wardens of the South. As for Willas' situation, I think the Tyrells were aiming for a good marriage with one of the lords paramount to reintegrate themselves into the new Baratheon power system--however they simply are a half-generation off of the others, so Willas had to wait. They did try with Arianne IIRC, which shows they did try, but it wasn't going to work.
I also agree with Dorne seceding before this is all done.
I believe it was mentioned somewhere that the Tyrells were Wardens of the South.
They are. What I was wondering is why the Tyrells vs. the Martells, but then I remembered that Dorne was still independent for some time.
i can't figure out how they were able to outfight the dragons, but don't tell me if I'll learn it again on my reread.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
i can't figure out how they were able to outfight the dragons, but don't tell me if I'll learn it again on my reread.
It depends on where you are in your reread. If you're not up to the part where Margaery and Renly get married then I won't spoil it for you. I believe it's there or when the Tyrells get to KL that you find out about them being chosen over House Gardener and why.
How the Martells were able to hold out against the Targaryen dragons? I'm talking about the dragon fighting that burned down Harrenhal. But yes, I'm in Storm, I think Sam just slayed the Other. It broke my heart when Harwin caught up to Arya and was no longer loyal to her family when she tried to get away. I always cling to hope things will be different.
i was heartbroken when she got to the Red Wedding when she did. I mean, she would've been taken hostage or killed if she got there earlier, but it's heart wrenching. She had been there when her father died too.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
How the Martells were able to hold out against the Targaryen dragons? I'm talking about the dragon fighting that burned down Harrenhal.
Yes, I believe it's mentioned in how the Tyrells got the title of wardens of the south over house Gardener who were once Kings of the South. You get details there as to why and what happened with the Martells and the Young Dragon.
You get more detail later on in Arianne's or Oakhearts chapter too. But that's next book.
Harrenhal? That has nothing to do with the Martells. Wasn't a quick mention there about how the dragons couldn't conquer the south? Is that what set off your thinking on it?
Im not talking about how the Tyrells were wardens of the south; I know it's because Dorne remained independent for two hundred years until they had their alliance through marriage.
my question is how was it that Aegon the conqueror was able to get all the kingdoms to submit with his dragons, but somehow Dorne wasn't affected. In other words, how could Dorne have beaten Balerion the Dread in battle when supposedly Harrenhal, the strongest castle ever, was destroyed by the dragon fire. Does that make sense?
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
And in the story of the Young Dragon there is also mention of how and why he succeeded when the Targ Dragons failed. I'm trying not to spoil it for you here. So I'm giving the places in the books where I remember it's talked about. And again it's brought up in AFFC.
Oooooh! Duh! ::: I think I'm about 20% through Storm...
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Also the full story is more contained in the World Book, as to how the Martells resisted the dragons.
Ok, I'll look it up online then since I don't consider that a spoiler. Thanks!
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Post by regular jon umber on Aug 19, 2015 7:25:40 GMT
I'm re-reading Storm of Swords (out of order, long story) and I came across the following in Tyrion's chapter during the purple wedding:
Galyeon was a big barrel-chested man with a black beard, a bald head, and a thunderous voice that filled every corner of the throne room. He brought no fewer than six musicians to play for him. "Noble lords and ladies fair, I sing but one song for you this night," he announced. "It is the song of the Blackwater, and how a realm was saved." The drummer began a slow ominous beat.
"The dark lord brooded high in his tower," Galyeon began, "in a castle as black as the night." "Black was his hair and black was his soul," the musicians chanted in unison. A flute came in.
"He feasted on bloodlust and envy, and filled his cup full up with spite," sang Galyeon. "My brother once ruled seven kingdoms, he said to his harridan wife. I'll take what was his and make it all mine. Let his son feel the point of my knife."
"A brave young boy with hair of gold," his players chanted, as a woodharp and a fiddle began to play.
"If I am ever Hand again, the first thing I'll do is hang all the singers," said Tyrion, too loudly.
Lady Leonette laughed lightly beside him, and Ser Garlan leaned over to say, "A valiant deed unsung is no less valiant."
"The dark lord assembled his legions, they gathered around him like crows. And thirsty for blood they boarded their ships . . ."
The bolded parts are what interest me. Obviously as readers we know what happened with Stannis. He's no 'dark lord'; he's not trying to take something that wasn't his; he wasn't filled with envy (well, that's debatable, but it wasn't the point of his rebellion); and Joff was no brave boy.
However, this is how the realm will remember it, for generations to come.
I think George has put this in to remind us that the writing of history belongs to the victors; that stories passed down through generations are by no means facts. I think, therefore, that we are supposed to question everything that comes from the distant past.
Sorry for the long post, but it definitely made me go 'hmmm...'
ACOK, before the Battle of the Blackwater, she's telling Sansa horror stories of everything that goes on when a city is sacked, insinuating personal experience.
"Why is Ser Ilyn here?" Sansa blurted out.
The queen glanced at the mute headsman. "To deal with treason, and to defend us if need be. He was a knight before he was a headsman." She pointed her spoon toward the end of the hall, where the tall wooden doors had been closed and barred. "When the axes smash down those doors, you may be glad of him."
I would be gladder if it were the Hound, Sansa thought. Harsh as he was, she did not believe Sandor Clegane would let any harm come to her. "Won't your guards protect us?"
"And who will protect us from my guards?" The queen gave Osfryd a sideways look. "Loyal sellswords are rare as virgin whores. If the battle is lost my guards will trip on those crimson cloaks in their haste to rip them off. They'll steal what they can and flee, along with the serving men, washer women, and stableboys, all out to save their own worthless hides. Do you have any notion what happens when a city is sacked, Sansa? No, you wouldn't, would you? All you know of life you learned from singers, and there's such a dearth of good sacking songs."
....
"I would sooner face any number of swords than sit helpless like this, pretending to enjoy the company of this flock of frightened hens."
"You asked them here, Your Grace."
"Certain things are expected of a queen. They will be expected of you should you ever wed Joffrey. Best learn." The queen studied the wives, daughters, and mothers who filled the benches. "Of themselves the hens are nothing, but their cocks are important for one reason or another, and some may survive this battle. So it behooves me to give their women my protection. If my wretched dwarf of a brother should somehow manage to prevail, they will return to their husbands and fathers full of tales about how brave I was, how my courage inspired them and lifted their spirits, how I never doubted our victory even for a moment."
"And if the castle should fall?"
"You'd like that, wouldn't you?" Cersei did not wait for a denial. "If I'm not betrayed by my own guards, I may be able to hold here for a time. Then I can go to the walls and offer to yield to Lord Stannis in person. That will spare us the worst. But if Maegor's Holdfast should fall before Stannis can come up, why then, most of my guests are in for a bit of rape, I'd say. And you should never rule out mutilation, torture, and murder at times like these."
Sansa was horrified. "These are women, unarmed, and gently born."
"Their birth protects them," Cersei admitted, "though not as much as you'd think. Each one's worth a good ransom, but after the madness of battle, soldiers often seem to want flesh more than coin. Even so, a golden shield is better than none. Out in the streets, the women won't be treated near as tenderly. Nor will our servants. Pretty things like that serving wench of Lady Tanda's could be in for a lively night, but don't imagine the old and the infirm and the ugly will be spared. Enough drink will make blind washerwomen and reeking pig girls seem as comely as you, sweetling."
So how is she so familiar with the happenings of a sack? She was too young for Duskendale, and Tywin dragged her back to the Rock with him after he resigned as Hand in 281. Unless I'm mistaken, she didn't return to King's Landing until she married Robert.
These passages almost make it sound like she was present for the Sack.
Well, Cersei might not have been present for the sack, but Jaime certainly was. As his confidante, I wouldn't be surprised if he had shared quite a bit of the details with her. That is, if she hadn't overheard or been privy to some of Tywin's plans from the beginning. She is a Lannister.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
"The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though … there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together … but Rickard Stark had great ambitions too. Southron ambitions that would not be served by having his heir marry the daughter of one of his own vassals. Afterward my father nursed some hope of wedding me to Brandon's brother Eddard, but Catelyn Tully got that one as well. I was left with young Lord Dustin, until Ned Stark took him from me."
You know I realized that this all doesn't even make any sense. Barbrey says that Brandon's marriage to Catelyn Tully was Rickard Stark's southern ambitions, and that after Brandon was announced to be marrying Catelyn that Barbrey's father hoped to marry her to Eddard.
But Eddard is actually Rickard's first play in southern ambitions. Eddard was sent to Jon Arryn in the Vale when he was 8. Eddard is only 1 year younger than Brandon, and Catelyn says that she was betrothed to Brandon when she was 12. Catelyn is born in 264 apparently which means that her and Brandon's betrothal occurred in 276. Brandon was born in 262 according to the World Book, so Brandon was 14 at the time of his betrothal to Catelyn. Which means that Eddard was already 13, and had spent the last 5 years being Jon Arryn's ward.
Rickard Stark's southern ambitions predate Brandon's marriage to Catelyn by at least a whole 5 years, so how could Barbrey and her father think that she might get Eddard if Rickard had southern ambitions based off Brandon's marriage? Eddard was the start of the southern ambitions as they should no doubt have picked up on if they simply did the math
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
? Maybe because Rickard was marrying his heir to a southern high lord, and fostering Eddard at the Vale was a way for him to get Lyanna to marry a Baratheon? He may have wanted to keep one alliance in the north for his bannermen, but it seemed to be implied that Ned would have married Ashara Dayne if it hadn't been for Brandon. I was surprised, too, when I read that; but maybe that's why the Barbrey's father fostered Brandon, though. It sounds like that, at least.
Also sounds like Brandon liked Barbrey more than just a casual fling. What's interesting about this passage, is that it also shows us that yes, even highborn ladies aren't always chaste like Cat was on their wedding nights. We know before with Cersei, Jeyne Westerling, the Florent girl, but Barbrey speaks so frankly about it, like it's completely normal. Mayhaps Lyanna running off and having her fling isn't so strange anymore, but the highborn ladies (with the exception of Lysa Tully and the Florent lady) seem to know a bit more about birth control moon tea to keep things discreet.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Maybe Lady Barbs is aware of the Stark kin in the Vale and assumed Ned was fostered there because of that?
Well he should have been fostered with the Royces then, not the Arryns. And Brandon somehow became friends with Kyle Royce so it would seem that at least Ned or Brandon had connections with the Royces. Which isn't really that weird as the Royces live close to the Arryns. But yeah, Ned was fostered with the Lord Paramount of the Vale which is a big play (see how both Stannis and Tywin were trying to foster Robert Arryn - fostering a Lord Paramount's kid with another Lord Paramount is big alliance building)
it seemed to be implied that Ned would have married Ashara Dayne if it hadn't been for Brandon.
Well that in itself is rather weird. Barbrey says that when it was announced that Brandon was to marry Cat, that her father hoped she might still get Eddard. But the announcement for the marriage was like 6 years after the betrothal seeing as Littlefinger dueled Brandon when it was announced that they were to marry and Brandon was 20 at the time. Which means that Ned was 19 at the time that Barbrey's dad hoped to marry him to her, and he was still eligible apparently if they thought a match was still on the table.
And even then, things don't really seem to add up that Barbrey's father was hoping to get Ned at this time seeing as Barbrey says that at the start of Robert's Rebellion she had been married to Lord Dustin for 6 months. Robert's Rebellion starts in 282, and Brandon both dueled Littlefinger and died in 282 at the age of 20. So these three events all happen fairly quickly. Which pretty much means that in all likelihood Barbrey should have already been married to Lord Dustin either at the time that Brandon was announced to be marrying Cat, or like within weeks of it. Doesn't really seem like there's any time for the Eddard match as Barbrey has to have married Dustin around the time of Brandon's marriage.
maybe that's why the Barbrey's father fostered Brandon, though.
Barbrey's father didn't foster Brandon. Brandon was fostered with the Dustins. Barbrey is a Ryswell by birth.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
@mark171, would the Royces be high enough in status for Ned to be fostered there? I mean, fostering your sons inside your kingdom binds the vassels to you. Good politics. Fostering your sons with other Lords Paramount, good politics again, and you can say that the Vale has Starks as vassels so not an insult to your own people. I can't see the political good in fostering Ned with one of Jon Arryn's vassels, though. Am I missing something obvious?
That's weird about the timeline. No wonder grrm doesn't like it when readers geek out on it :-D He has shitty time-sense!