SPOILERS!! ASTRONOMY IN ASOIAF!

I shall now accept your apology.



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Interesting discussion. I have a bit of a different take on the whole sun/moon idea. I generally tend to agree that sun & gold are associated with paternal lines, while the moon and silver are generally associated with maternal lines. For instance, the fact that Littlefinger favors silver makes me believe that he more strongly assoiciates with a maternal lineage as opposed to his paternal one.

The paternal line in Westeros is the line with the sigil and the words, and the castle ect. ect. House Stark and House Targaryen are two prime examples. While House Dorne's sun is associated with Nymeria, the sun association still fits, because Dorne practices primogeniture, so gender does not determine the inheritance of the principality.

I think GRRM is teasing the existence of maternal lines in Westeros. These are his moon/silver associations. For example, Sansa's maternal line would be Minisa Whent - Catelyn Tully - Sansa Stark. (And if I had to guess there is probably a great grandmother Losthon.)

I think the in story significance has to do with magical traits that are passed down from mother to daughter. For example, there is a strong suspicion that the "warg gene" may be something that is passed on from mother to child, thus a long family history of warg is going to depend on a maternal lineage. They exist but they are hidden, because there is no sigil or words signifying the line like there is for the paternal lines.

Starting with the shortest answer first, "Yes, I believe it does." As I mentioned, nine is the number of the comet. The ninth wanderer - so a blck crown associated with number 9 - it fits very well with AA = NK. It's also a BROKEN circlet, which taken with the black... that's a black, broken crown. But they are still the metals which are "dark and strong to fight the cold," which implies the NK / KoW was still someone who wielded fire. This is an idea that I have found suggested elsewhere as well. It's the whole concept that WF is an oasis of warmth in the frozen north, and the KoW rules winter because he defeated it, that sort of thing. I'm not sure about the exact overlap between the NK and KoW though.

That's how I have always seen the blue rose, as a sign of Lyanna. I'm working on revamping my first essay for podcasting, and I've completely rewritten half of it. I'm making the case that AA reborn is really AA reborn AND Nissa Nissa reborn. The child of sun and moon bears the essence of both - the moon meteors are pieces of the moon, but they drank the sun's fire (we're fertilized by the sun). Thus, Jon as a manifestation of Lightbringer / Azor Ahai reborn, is also NN reborn, or in this case, Lyanna reborn. So, we see two different personal "sigils" for Jon, and we see them in the same place: he crack / chink in the Wall. First, blue rose, second, those streaks of red fire turning to rivers of black ice, with the latter being a match for Jon armored in black ice with a burning red sword.

The blue rose is for his mother, and the red fire and blck ice is basically a frozen version of the Targaryen sigil. The fire is clearly represented, and instead of blood, we have blck ice. But this fits with my ideas of Lightbringer - IMO, black ice is a reference to Ned's sword, Ice, which is black. It seems to made from those sun drinking meteors, and possibly all V steel is too, and those meteors are a magical form of bloodstone - black bloodstone, because fire transformation results in black blood. These ideas are laid out in my essay "The Bloodstone Emperor Azor Ahai." Ned's sword is made from black bloodstone, melted and frozen into place as metal swords are. So, that's black ice - black bloodstone of the fire moon which drinks light and heat, made into a sword. I would also call that frozen shadow fire, as opposed to frozen fire (dragonglass) which emits light instead of drinking it, and drinks the cold from the Others instead of drinking heat. Something like that.

Red fire and black ice is hard to make sense of without Jon being a Targaryen, I'm afraid to say. It fits all of my AA / Lightbringer ideas as well, so I am pretty comfortable with my interpretation of it. Since we also see Jon literally incarnate as red fire and blck ice in the AA dream, and since both that combo and the blue rose are found in the cracks in the Wall, I really think they constitute his parentage.

As for the genetics thing, have you by chance read Evolett's theory about the genetics of Ice and Fire? If you haven't, then you have both come to a strikingly similar conclusion independently of one another. Sound like you have read it though. I don't have a strong opinion - seems plausible, and certainly I like the idea of George playing with matrilineage under our noses, as I know he is rather progressive, personally, and I've pod close attention to his use of patriarchy and matriarchy. It's some he ha put thought into. And I do see a kind of rise in feminism coming, as many of the future leaders of these Houses are set up to be women. If love to see Sansa become queen, myself, but who knows. Evolett's theory gets very specific, which gives me pause, however, as I'm just not sure how far it is sensible to think Martin has gone with the idea of genetics. The opening mystery of Joffrey's parentage shows us at least a basic notion of genes and matrilineage, so it's plausible to a certain extent. I've read a bit about the Whent and Lothston ideas, and I think those are on point. Evolett talks about the skinchanging and greensight being different aspects, carried on different genes, and she think the Tullys carry one of those genes. she's interpreting various symbols associated with hair as an indicator of genetics. I'll drop the link here when I'm back home and off my mobile.

As for RLJ stuff... yes, some other ideas could certainly make some aspects of the two moons pattern. George doesn't make them all exactly the same either. Usually there is three children total, but not always. He doesn't completely destroy the current scene just to make the astronomy metaphors, but rather works with what he has to make a version of the pattern, one that fits the narrative and does not disrupt it. Khal Drogo doesn't get to take a second wife, as he should, probably because it just isn't plausible in the story, and the focus is really on Daenerys acting out the fire moon death. (And then of course becoming AA reborn, the surviving comet half.) So there's wiggle room, certainly. We'd have to stop and consider one alternate parentage at a time to see how well it fits. The problem for RLJ alternates is that there are many angles which seem to point at RLJ. The sigils, as I mentioned, the two moons pattern, the idea that Azor Ahai means "fire dragon" and represents the oldest ancestor of Valyrian magic - I see the V magic as a legacy of AA / the Bloodstone Emperor's legacy of corrupted fire magic. Azor Ahai reborn should really come from Valyrian blood, the blood of the dragon. Jon's Azor Ahai reborn imagery is way too thick to be denied, in my opinion. Lyanna HAS to be his mother, so the only wiggle room is his father, which really only means Arthur Dayne. But that doesn't fit either, as Daybes don't have any red or black symbolism, at all. I think I've discovered that they are descended from the common Valyrian ancestor, but they seem more linked to the pre-Bloodstone Emperors, who carried swords of PALE fire. Those were the rules of the Great Empire of the Dawn, so pale fire and Dawn seem to match the Daynes. Likewise, everything I've researched about the Last Hero seems to point at a child of dragon blood and FM blood, likely from the Am Empress or her fellow loyalists who must have fled the BSE's reign of terror and an ancient Stark. Jon seems to be a recreation of this: half dragon, half stark. I don't think half Dayne / half Stark would fit the bill.

Basically, what I am saying is that if you want to take an RLJ alt and cross reference it to my various astronomy ideas, you're welcome to do so and see where it gets you, but so far I am only finding confirmation of Jon as a Targ. Also, and I don't mean to be lame, but I am super swamped trying to finish the podcast / essay re-write, and this would be a new line of inquiry, to try to match it with other RLJ alternatives. If I were picking up hints than Jon is really a stag somehow, or whatever else, then I would certainly follow those leads. So far, I haven't seen them. But maybe one of you guys with the alt theories in mind can take a look and see something I missed - that's absolutely possible.

Thanks for the horticulture link, I'll be sure to check that out. I'm at the point where I definitely don't believe in coincidence in regards to potential symbolism in ASOIAF. Food, hair, the color of the drapes and dresses... None of it is happenstance. That's just now how George is writing. He chooses which details to describe according the the symbolism angles is working in a given scene - that's my observation at least. 

No no problem with Aegon being alive. 

Drogo is a solar King, but did not take a second wife, I think because of the simple fact that it was not practical for the story. So sure, Rhagar can be a solar king with one wife. But I doubt it, because Rhaegar and Aegon seems to be the two most important and most closely matched manifestations of Azor Ahai, and Rhagar and Lyanna making Jon is very tight fit with this pattern. I'm curious, would any of his other potential fathers be able to fit the scenario?


I don't think anyone is proposing Jon as a Lannister, but if Tywin has raped Joanna, that might work, but that's irrelevant because Jon is not showing any lion imagery or golden imagery. Aerys as the father might work, although he already had three children. And that still makes Jon a Targaryen, and the main motivating force behind RLJ antagonism seems to flow from the desire to not have Jon be a Targaryen. That, and a general contrarian distaste for the behavior of pro-RLJ people and group-think in general, but I digress.


Robert would have to be following the pattern backwards, with Lyanna first and then Cersei, which isn't totally unthinkable, but again, for the main depiction of the pattern (Jon being the most important AA reborn figure) , it should be as close a match as possible. And I am not seeing any stag clues about Jon. The stag man archetype goes back to Garth the Green, and it's a very important one. Coldhands has a ton of implied stag imagery, and I also think he acts like a greenseer, save that he is undead, so I see Coldhands as an undead sacred order of green men person. But I don't see any of that with Jon. He is following CH footsteps, in that he will be an undead skinchanger who still retains his magic (my prediction), but he doesn't ride an elk, and he doesn't emerge from "beneath the trees" as CH does. This phrase I take to be a reference to greenseers underneath trees, as well as the idea that the horns of the horned god / stag man archetype can also be depicted as tree branches. This is a classical horned god archetype feature, speaking of real world mythology. Branches and stag antlers are interchangeable.  A man riding an elf standing beneath the tree makes the image. But I digress again. 

So, Aegon still alive, yes. RLJ alternatives... Have an uphill climb, in my view. But I could be missing stuff, absolutely, so feel free to explore these ideas and see what you come up with. 

I have to be honest this is one of the things that put me off with you.Whatever evidence there is or isn't has to fit with what George has written not your theory so your advice shouldn't be how any info one might or might not find should correlate to what you think you found.Case in point plenty of evidence Jon is Arthur's , Robert and Ned not based off what you wrote but because the people are basing info off the text and their knowledge of mythology.So I don't think other "alternatives" have an uphill battle because "you" say so.

I think foremost logically, socially, and mythologically its less likely Jon is Rhaegar's son.I think Jon's arch meaning his parentage as well is caught up in the Oak and holly king myth the archetypes of the horned god.Thus making him Robert's and that's because the writer made the connection between the horned god and Robert on all levels, Lyanna as an earth goddess on all levels and Jon as continuation on lelevels.

So to say other prospects have a problem because they dont fit into "your"pattern is a bit much.Did you ever consider other people saw other patterns as well?