Post by stdaga on Apr 16, 2018 20:55:42 GMT
First of all, it's my turn to apologize for disappearing for a while! Sorry! The week just got away from me... the end of the semester is always super busy. But, I'm back and looking forward to getting back into this!
No worries! We all have things that keep us busy outside of these boards!
I think this is not only possible, but likely. He addresses Theon as "turncloak" and "kinslayer", which fits if he was around to see the fake Bran and Rickon hung up by Theon. This of course leads to the question of who could have been present during Theon's brief reign yet also freely walks the castle under Ramsay. It seems he can't be ironborn (all killed by Ramsay) or one of Winterfell's original inhabitants (presumably killed, but certainly not accepted into the Bolton army after the sack of the castle). If he was one of Ramsay's men he shouldn't be upset at Theon's actions.
Maybe someone who fought in the battle outside Winterfell (when Ramsay attacked the northmen who were trying to free WF from Theon)? He would have seen the dead boys firsthand, and have seen Theon knocked out and taken by Ramsay (hence the surprise that he was still alive later on). He could be a Dustin or Manderly man perhaps; someone who would have fought for Robb but whose lord now serves the Boltons... but of course it would be much more satisfying if he were someone we knew. Do you have any ideas?
Well, I used to think it was Hallis Mollen, that he made it back to Winterfell with Ned's bones, and was just hanging out, possibly guarding his lord's remains. But if the hooded man was at Winterfell at the time that Ramsay/Reek was in Winterfell with Theon, then I don't think Hal fits. The timeline might not work for this as I don't think Hal and the bones had time to make it past Moat Callin before the Iron Born took the castle.
Another thing I thought, from the very beginning is that Benjen was in Winterfell, and was the Hooded Man. Possibly he had a bit of foresight of what would happen and he knew that there needed to be a Stark in Winterfell. If Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell during Robert's rebellion, then he would understand the importance of needing to keep a Stark there. Of course, this would mean that he had abandoned his Night's Watch vow's, with is tricky, because that doesn't seem like Benjen. It would put him in the target of the Lord of Winterfell, whom ever that might be, Bran or Jon perhaps, and the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, which will probably still be Jon (I don't think he dies with his stabbing attempt, although he might be in a coma of a sort, mirroring Bran after his fall). Meaning either Bran or Jon might need to take Benjen's head off for desertion. GRRM seems like the type of author that would put this painful decision before a character like Jon or Bran (if Bran could swing a sword). But this idea has faded over the years. When Jon desert's the watch in Game, he thinks of Ned beheading the Gared, wonders if Ned would be able to kill Benjen for this same action of deserting, and how Robb would react to Jon being a deserter. All of these things are put into our mind for a reason, and I still think there is a slight possibility that Jon (or Bran, perhaps) might need to pass this sentence on beloved Uncle Benjen!
If the Hooded Man was at Winterfell at the time Ser Rodrick and his force attacked Theon's men, before Ramsay turned the tables and attacked Ser Rodrick's forces, then I am less sure. In Clash, Ramsay brings the bodies of Rodrik Cassell, Leobald Tallhart and Cley Cerwyn to the gates of Winterfell, and we are told they are dead. But are they? Ser Rodrik lost at arm, so he probably died from those wounds, "the boy lord" which is probably Cley Cerwin had lost an eye, but no injuries are reported to the body of Leobald Tallhart. We don't know what happened to the bodies because Ramsay attacks Theon and the Iron Born at this time, so I think it is possible that one of those men isn't actually dead and could be our mystery Hooded Man. Perhaps the fire of Winterfell was able to disguise the escape of one of these men who wasn't dead. My money is on Leobald Tallhart.
Even though I think that Ser Rodrik is probably dead, he referred to Theon as Theon Turncloak to his face, and so does the Hoooded Man. That could be a clue, or it could be that the majority of the people of the north refer to Theon in this way.
Another person I have recently come to question that might still be alive is Benfred Tallhart. We see that Aeron Greyjoy has Benfred drowned, but the last image that Theon has of Benfred's body is of it being dragged out of the sea. Why? Why not leave the body to the sea for the Drowned God. But Aeron orders the body taken from the sea. Did Aeron perform his version of Salty CPR on Benfred? Or did Benfred simply awake from his drowning, much in the way that Aeron Greyjoy himself has, twice.
So, currently, Benfred or Leobald Tallhart are on my radar for being the Hooded Man. Theon doesn't report much about the Hooded Man in a way of identification, but I think a missing arm or missing eye might be noted by him. However, that information would be a dead giveaway, so it might just have to remain unmentioned.
Tallhart! There is something about the three tall sentinel trees on the sigil of House Tallhart that make me think they are important guardian's. The green and brown motif makes me think of the Crannogmen and the CotF. Three seems to be a powerful number in this story. I think House Tallhart might be very important. And loyal to House Stark, I think. Stannis reports survivor's of the Battle outside of Winterfell from Houses Hornwood, Cerwyn, and Tallhart joining his ranks.
I have to say, the Theon Durden theory is one of the smartest things I have come across, and would be very happy if that turned out to be the case. When reading with that in mind, it is not hard to see Theon with a fractured mentality, and a case of split personality would be fitting for him.
Wow! This is a great observation, and I can't believe it's never come up before! There shouldn't have been knights there, unless they were Manderly knights. But fighting for the Boltons?
I had never before really thought about that information on who attacked Luwin, but this time it stuck out to me, and I was struck by this being another clue against the Manderly's. Mounted knights should not be part of Ramsay's men, but they fit into the idea of House Manderly's forces quite well.
Oooooh. Very interesting! I always liked the Manderlys, and would be sad if they betrayed the Starks. Then again, if the show is any indication, Ramsay ends up getting a hold of Rickon... handed over by his current guardian (Umber in the show). And lord Wyman did ask Davos to fetch Rickon for him, so if Rickon reappears, it will very likely be in the care of the Manderlys. Lord Wyman certainly could be lying to Davos about his reasons for wanting the boy. If Manderly wants the North, the Stark boys are all that is standing in his way. (Well, and Bolton. But if he can orchestrate the situation such that the Boltons kill the Stark boys, then the northmen would gladly follow whoever leads the attack against the Boltons.)
One of my last times through the red wedding chapter, the idea of Wendel Manderly and that leg of lamb he is holding really stuck out to me. I always thought it was an odd detail, but the fact that it is mentioned three times in the chapter is odd. GRRM wants us to pay attention. And in Dany's vision of the House of the Undying, she see's a vision of a dead man with the head of a wolf and an iron crown holding a leg of lamb. The leg of lamb, again. I was involved in a discussion about sacrifice and how lambs are often animals that are given in sacrifice, in the bible, in mythology, and suddenly this idea of Wendel with a leg of lamb, mentioned three times, was a hint that Wendel was a sacrifice. Who else would sacrifice him, but his own father? It just seems so perfect. Wyman knew he had to make himself look innocent of deceit, so what better way to avoid suspicion than to allow one of your own sons to be killed. This seems to fit the idea of why Wyman needs Walys returned, as he is the married son, the son who has produced children, and might yet produce a son. He needs one sure heir because he allowed his other son to die to make himself look innocent of wrong doing.
Another thing just struck me while thinking on the Hooded Man mystery.
… more northmen coming in as word spreads of our victory. Fisherfolk, freeriders, hillmen, crofters from the deep of the wolfswood and villagers who fled their homes along the stony shore to escape the ironmen, survivors from the battle outside the gates of Winterfell, men once sworn to the Hornwoods, the Cerwyns, and the Tallharts. We are five thousand strong as I write, our numbers swelling every day. And word has come to us that Roose Bolton moves toward Winterfell with all his power, there to wed his bastard to your half sister. He must not be allowed to restore the castle to its former strength. We march against him. Arnolf Karstark and Mors Umber will join us. I will save your sister if I can, and find a better match for her than Ramsay Snow. You and your brothers must hold the Wall until I can return. ADWD-Jon VII
This is from Stannis' letter to Jon. Stannis tells us that he has been joined by survivors of the battle outside of Winterfell, and then he mentions houses Hornwood, Cerwyn and Tallhart. But we know that those northern forces also included the mounted knights of House Manderly. So, where are they? Why did they not join Stannis' forces? Because House Manderly does not want Stannis to succeed, is what I think, because it would bind up the plan for the Manderly's to take over the rule of the north.
Now, I am not sure if Manderly and Bolton are working together in good will, or working together in a loose agreement, one side just waiting for the other to make a mistake. Sometimes, I wonder if GRRM is going to throw us off by making Roose not be a complete villain. GRRM presents Roose as the ultimate villain to house Stark, but GRRM likes to jerk the rug out from under us, so perhaps he is setting Roose up to appear to be a villain while he is in actuality a shady sort of savior to the northern ways. Tinfoil, I know ...
It may not be a random backstory that the Manderlys were kicked out of their southern home because they were seen as a danger to the ruling House. I can't remember if they actually rose up in rebellion, but whatever they did (scheming and plotting, perhaps, like currently?) it got them banned from the Riverlands. It must have been something pretty extreme, since we hear of very few other examples of a House having to leave their lands entirely and move far away (the Blackwoods being the one other notable example).
I agree whole heartedly that the information on the Manderly's being run out of the reach for overstepping themselves and trying to gain great power is a clue and we need to be paying attention to it. They wanted power then, and they want it now, I think.
So the Manderlys are the only surviving Knights of the Green Hand, which of course refers to Garth Greenhand. Could this somehow be affecting their motivations?
Hard to say what their motivation could be. But it could have something to do with the Order of the Green Hand from the reach. I don't have much to add to that knightly brotherhood. But I do wonder how much time and distance could have changed the motivation of the members of that brotherhood.
Yes, I agree. It seems someone didn't want it known what happened at Winterfell. On the surface it seems unusual for a knight to kill a maester. Maesters are very useful, especially after a battle with many wounded men. They could have easily captured him and used him. It's almost as if they couldn't leave anyone alive to talk of that night, for whatever reason.
Yes, looking back on it, there is no other explanation except that someone needed to silence the truth of what happened at Winterfell. Part of me wished that Luwin didn't die and he was the hooded man, with all of his knowledge, but I don't think that is what happened. Luwin died because his knowledge and truth of events had to be silenced. And it doesn't sound like Ramsay's men took Luwin out, but men from House Manderly, or at least mounted knights who fit the description of men sent from House Manderly.
Barbrey Dustin doesn't love nor trust Maester's but we don't know how Roose feels about them. As a matter of fact, he brings three maesters to Winterfell that he "borrowed" from other places in the north. So, it seems like Roose know's how useful a maester could be, which makes it even less likely that he would kill them. He could still want Luwin silenced, so that doesn't mean he didn't order Luwin's death. Except he was still in the south at that time, and might not have been willing to risk that order to a raven. Roose is not stupid!
It is also possible that someone could be disguised in the armor of House Manderly, and not be under their order's at all, which would be smart if you wanted to throw suspicion on someone else.