Certainly, as do all women (when pregnant) in my opinion. Still, Dany clearly wed ice and fire when she married her "Sun and Stars" in barbaric splendor...
What did you have in mind for Dany in this question?
That she is still a moon and hasn't had her winter solar king/Nights King husband.
Oh I hear ya. Jon?
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
To clarify, I don't think we can make Dany a solar king with male brides. I think she has to stay a moon. Any ideas on how to rectify this?
LmL is not going to like this, because I'm using words like "like" and "think" instead of using text to support my reasoning, but that is not my forte. My forte is logical reasoning.
I agree. She's always the moon. A fickle young girl, a mother, tomorrow she will be old. She's the changing woman.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
The sept of baelor still exists, emphasizing the idea that the ice moon still exists to this day.
You don't feel there's a conflict with using the Sept of Baelor, which is of the Faith of the Seven, and identifying it as being symbolic of Ice and the moon?
She's the pregnant moon right up until she births the dragons, and is transformed by fire. According to your theory, after the unitary moon is struck and gives birth to dragons, it should freeze over and turn to an ice moon. But Dany never does this - instead, after the dragon birthing, she is the "Last Dragon," a king in her own right. She wears the white lion pelt - a solar symbol, clearly - to remind people that Drogo's strength lives inside her. She leads her people like a comet / wanderer, and the copulates with a distinctly fire associated person, Daario, and then with Hizdahr, who's cock is like in ice in her dream and is known for his "tepid kisses." She's no longer pregnant after the dragon birthing. She has become the Khaleesi, and as much as she longs to be the Mhysa, she cannot, for that is not her nature. She is the Last dragon... the last...
If Dany is the last dragon, who is the last direwolf if not Jon? It seems to favor the fire side if Jon is ice and fire and Dany is just fire.
Here's your Hizdahr passage regarding his manhood:
Beneath her coverlets she tossed and turned, dreaming that Hizdahr was kissing her … but his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice.
You tie everything up so nicely, it is tempting, but again if the story is following this symbolism, I feel like the cycle has to be broken in order to find a resolution and to restore balance.
NO. I don't see conflict with Faith representing the ice powers, none at all. What are you referring to? The crystal sword in the darkness, plus the emphasis on crystals and rainbows that the faith shares with the Wall seems pretty strong to me.
You can always find small details to go either way, such as the idea that Rhaegar was married to Elia for longer, but he does impregnate her first, and the ice moon second.
If Dany is straight fire, and Jon ice and fire, I suspect Bran is ice. But we will have to see. That depends on the relationship between ice and earth.
Indeed, some part of the cycle will have to be broken to bring ultimate resolution. But its possible the ending will not shrive this, only a temporary shunting of the cold of the LN, doomed to repeat another cycle in the future... bittersweet.
The warrior's sons thing I am pretty excited about. It continues with Craster, who plays the role of the NK, making warrior's sons with crystal swords. I think George is giving us clues about the Night's King and the creation of Others here. Obviously the Warrior's Sons and the Faith are not literally connected to the others, but George creates symbolic associations like this as a way of informing us about the Others, who are basically off-camera. The Faith depicts the Stranger as a shadow face with stars for eyes in the one spey that Cat visits... sounds like the Great Other to me... and inside the Sept, they keep it dark, and light by thousands of candles. They are recreating the night sky, particularly in the black marble sept in Oldtown. As such, crystal swords and warrior's sons fit right in. As an aside, I suspect they do not consider the sun as a wanderer, instead replacing it with deep space, the great cold and dark, as the Stranger. 5 planets, two moons, and space = 8 wanderers. Minus one moon, leaves seven. The comet is the ninth wanderer, just as the Bloodstone Emperor is the ninth gemstone Emperor who casts down the eighth. The eighth is Amethyst Empress, who is symbolic of Nissa Nissa and Daenerys and the fire moon.
VOICE I will answer you in a bit.
Having a lot of fun so far on the ole Last Hearth, glad I came over.
To clarify, I don't think we can make Dany a solar king with male brides. I think she has to stay a moon. Any ideas on how to rectify this?
LmL is not going to like this, because I'm using words like "like" and "think" instead of using text to support my reasoning, but that is not my forte. My forte is logical reasoning.
Yeah, don't know what to say. Don't fix on her gender. She becomes a ruler in every sense of the word, and her dream of fire transformation shows that she has become Rhaegar, the last Dragon. She also goes to Yunkai, with their 8 wise masters, takes the slave whip from the eighth, and kills him with dragon fire, leaving seven. I don't see what is problematic about that. It matches the celestial events also, where the transformed, surviving comet half emerges from the conflagration as the last Dragon, returning to the story to wake dragons as Azor Ahai reborn. And as you yourself pointed out, Hizdahr is clearly ice-aspected, just as Daario is a fire person, with his purple trident beard (three heads of the dragon, three moon meteors) and gold rings and gold tooth gleaming in the last light of the sun.
Oh and the High Septon has a weirwood staff topped with a crystal orb.
As for Dany... she's the one who most exactly fits the. description of Azor Ahai reborn, waking dragons from stone. Of course she can be a solar king. Her dragons are her Lightbringer, a symbolic association which is well documented.
She does have the duality that Jon seems to have, so somehow we've gotten something in the story "crossed".
Ser Barristan thinks Dany looks like Ashara. Maybe that's too direct and obvious, but then again maybe not if Ned is her biological father?
I actually started a R+L=Dany thread haha. I don't buy it, but agree there seems to be a missing piece of the puzzle in Dany's parentage. GRRM did confirm that Dany is a Targaryen, but Arya never once noticed a lemon tree in Braavos...
Instead of always viewing the solar king as belonging to fire AND without assuming a male on the ice side would be a moon king, there has to be a way for the solar king to be a winter solar king, or Nights King. This is the detail that i feel is missing or incorrect in LmL's solar king/moon bride symbolism theory.
I'm not sure if I see the Night's King as being a solar-winter king...but maybe. The concept of a "king" is itself a very solar motif.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Oh and the High Septon has a weirwood staff topped with a crystal orb.
As for Dany... she's the one who most exactly fits the. description of Azor Ahai reborn, waking dragons from stone. Of course she can be a solar king. Her dragons are her Lightbringer, a symbolic association which is well documented.
That seem confusing to me as Lightbringer should be the instrument that brought forth the dragons instead of the dragons being the Lightbringer. To me it seems like Dany the moon was speared with the comet Lightbringer to bring forth her dragons. She even wears a dress that exposes her Nissa Nissa breast. Being that it was an immaculate conception, she's like a Mary giving birth to a son of god.
I realize that in history there are solar-goddesses and lunar-gods, but GRRM doesn't really show any lunar-gods other than referring to Jon as being pretty as a maid.
The Maiden Maid of Light is the bright face of the sun, and female. And I have discussed extensively the idea that AA became the NK, so...
As for male moon incarnations, we have a Moon King Stark, as well as the moon brothers in the Mountain of the Moon, and don't forget the smiling knight and the horned lord, both of whom represent the crescent moon. As I mentioned the Maiden of Light, who turned her back during the LN, is clearly the sun.
The Maiden Maid of Light is the bright face of the sun, and female. And I have discussed extensively the idea that AA became the NK, so...
I'm over on westeros skimming your Astronomy post over there. Sooo much to read! How in the world do you have the time to write these things up???
is it always
sun kills moon with comet sword, meteor children are born,
Slimming? SKIMMING?!? Ha ha, j/k. But skimming????
As of time, it's been a process of about 6 months or so. I really enjoy the analysis, it has kind of an energy of its own. When I get the fire inside me, I type all night and sleep little. And I think George's work bears this level of scrutiny... I also have a tendency to be indulgent and get carried away with the things I love most.
Oh and the High Septon has a weirwood staff topped with a crystal orb.
As for Dany... she's the one who most exactly fits the. description of Azor Ahai reborn, waking dragons from stone. Of course she can be a solar king. Her dragons are her Lightbringer, a symbolic association which is well documented.
That seem confusing to me as Lightbringer should be the instrument that brought forth the dragons instead of the dragons being the Lightbringer. To me it seems like Dany the moon was speared with the comet Lightbringer to bring forth her dragons. She even wears a dress that exposes her Nissa Nissa breast. Being that it was an immaculate conception, she's like a Mary giving birth to a son of god.
I realize that in history there are solar-goddesses and lunar-gods, but GRRM doesn't really show any lunar-gods other than referring to Jon as being pretty as a maid.
You're absolutely correct - this is what Dany does in AGOT. She is the moon, burnt in the son's pyre, and she is ritually burned. Her's the thing about Lightbringer, or Azor Ahai reborn - these both represent the CHILD of sun and moon. The moon meteors are pieces of the corpse of the moon, fertilized (toxically) by the sun's fire. These meteors represent burning Lightbringer, child of sun and moon. But so too does Azor Ahai, reborn. Azor Ahai reborn is just the child of AA and NN. Every child is their father reborn, but also their mother reborn. Thus, Lightbringer represents both, and our AA reborn characters like Dany and Jon, and also Brienne I would add, represent both solar and lunar aspects. Don't forget that Jon was sacrificed, very like Nissa Nissa, and I do think he will be reborn as a full incarnation of Lightbringer.
Similarly, Daenerys dies in the pyre, only to be reborn:
“Viserys was Mad Aerys’s son, just so. Daenerys … Daenerys is quite different.” He popped a roasted lark into his mouth and crunched it noisily, bones and all. “The frightened child who sheltered in my manse died on the Dothraki sea, and was reborn in blood and fire. This dragon queen who wears her name is a true Targaryen." (ADWD, Tyrion)
Daenerys is the moon when she burns to give birth to dragons, but reborn, she is Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa come again, containing the elements of both. As I was saying, the surviving half of the comet is transformed red as it passes by and through the moon explosion, and like the meteors which fall to earth, this red comet emerges from the conflagration. This is what I identify with Dany, the last dragon, or last comet, and dragons are her children, like smaller versions of herself. The dragon meters are indeed smaller versions of the red comet.
The red door is all about transformation, as is "having the fire inside you, searing and transforming." Again, she sprouts wings and smells burning blood as she flies through red door, as she transforms into the last dragon. That's why she lifts Rhaegar's visor and see only herself. Before she lifts it, the eyes of the visor shine with red fire.
Most characters have more than one archetype, I have found. Much like Dany, Brienne shows both lunar and morningstar imagery. All her cow and bovine nicknames are meant to imply lunar status, much like the Egyptian lunar goddesses who are depicted with cow horns (which in turn represent the crescent moon). But as I mentioned, the horned lord and the smiling knight both take those lunar horns, the sickle moon or cheshire cat (smiling) moon, and make it male.
The Horned Lord is actually more complex - I believe it refers to the entire alignment. The fire moon, in front of the sun, with the ice moon right above, showing a crescent.
This is what my avatar depicts, exactly - the horned lord. The ice moon is the horns, and the face is the God's Eye alignment.
Slimming? SKIMMING?!? Ha ha, j/k. But skimming????
As of time, it's been a process of about 6 months or so. I really enjoy the analysis, it has kind of an energy of its own. When I get the fire inside me, I type all night and sleep little. And I think George's work bears this level of scrutiny... I also have a tendency to be indulgent and get carried away with the things I love most.
It's hard to pay attention tonight. I've read quite a bit, but I have an ear ache that has been coming on all day and now it is a sharp pain. I'm holding a heated pad on my ear, but I think I'm going to have to give up for the evening.
It's amazing that you were able to draw out all this symbolism and connect it in a way that is interesting and makes sense. When I read it I think, yes I can see that, but I'm not quite sure I would have put this all together myself. It'll be interesting to see if your predictions come to be. I don't know if I'm sold on the second moon getting hit by a comet again. I don't think that will have to happen in order for the Others to attack....although the Wall has to be breached somehow, and I do think Moat Cailin was once a Wall too.
I hope you feel better - pains inside your skull are no fun. Tooth pain, earache... hope it goes away.
The Maiden made of Light is from TWOIAF. In Yi Ti, the country which preserves the older legend of the Great Empire of the Dawn, they refer to the Maiden-made-of-Light and the Lion of Night as the two gods who were in harmony until the Long Night came. The Maiden was said to hide her face during the Long Night, while the Lion of Night (the Night Sun) roamed free. In another section, it says the Yi Tish legend speaks of the sun hiding it's face - so we can deduce that the sun and the MmoL are the same, since they both hid their face during the LN. Research into ideas about solar duality show this concept of a night sun, the shadow self of the sun, the night sky. The link above has my research about night sun deities, who are pretty freaking cool if you ask me.
As for the second moon being hit, no, certainly it isn't "necessary," but that's kind of besides the point. I don't come up with any of my theories by figuring out what might be necessary - I just try to interpret the text and follow wherever it leads. George can make anything cause the new Long Night if he wishes. I can only study the text and give my best interpretation.
Of course, you'd be wrong, as I have shown. The maiden made of light is the sun, and Dany is the Last Dragon. Meanwhile... Moon King Stark, Moon Brothers, Smiling Knight and the Horned Lord.
She does have the duality that Jon seems to have, so somehow we've gotten something in the story "crossed".
Ser Barristan thinks Dany looks like Ashara. Maybe that's too direct and obvious, but then again maybe not if Ned is her biological father?
I actually started a R+L=Dany thread haha. I don't buy it, but agree there seems to be a missing piece of the puzzle in Dany's parentage. GRRM did confirm that Dany is a Targaryen, but Arya never once noticed a lemon tree in Braavos...
So, you admit you're a troll, starting threads you don't even believe in. ::facepalm:: Turrible. You're just a nipple-twisting button-pusher, aren't you?
Instead of always viewing the solar king as belonging to fire AND without assuming a male on the ice side would be a moon king, there has to be a way for the solar king to be a winter solar king, or Nights King. This is the detail that i feel is missing or incorrect in LmL's solar king/moon bride symbolism theory.
I'm not sure if I see the Night's King as being a solar-winter king...but maybe. The concept of a "king" is itself a very solar motif.
Yes, I'm with Mel-a here, the Night's King is a darkened sun, a night sun (George makes liberal use of "a knight's son" as double entendre in this sense). To borrow the Karstark Sigil, a white sun on a black field, it's a "winter sun."
What link above? I would like to read about night sun deities...after I read all your other stuff!
This is the entire essay on the Great Empire of the Dawn as the proto-Valyrian dragonlords from Asshai. The section dealing with night sun deities is near the end, this link goes straight there.
So glad you are enjoying... and yes, one possibility is that there is a meteor in both hearts. However, I think the idea (which belongs to someone else, a dude named Equilibrium on Westeros) of the hearts being magically joined or tethered to the moons makes a bit more sense, because it does not require the moons to score direct hits on the magical hotspots. Whatever happens to the moons happens to the hearts.
The other meteors can fall any damn place... I'm not sure if there needs to be a meteor near every black stone location, or if the GEotD might have quarried the stone and carried it places. Yeen and the Isle of Toads are close to each other, so it's likely there's a deposit pif this stuff near there on Sothoryos. The seastone chair is a small piece, but the legends of the Ironborn suggest a meteor landed nearby, shattering the land of Pyke. I've got that research and a full breakdown of Ironborn myth right over here: The Language of Leviathan. Asshai I believe is not made of meteor stone - that would just require too much of it, and I don't see massive public works projects going down during the Long Night - so I think it was made of clean stone and it became greasy, sun drinking stone because of the effects of the Shadow. The city became shadowed of corrupted along with the Shadow when the fire moon was destroyed.
I think there is a good chance one landed at the God's Eye, in fact creating the lake itself. Crater lakes often have an island in the middle of them. It's possible the only meteor to his westeros landed at the God's Eye, and triggered the earthquakes which shattered Pyke and the Arm of Dorne. Or it could be pieces landed at all od those locations. Until I see a clear text metaphor to clue me in to the specific locations, I'm leaving that vague.
A couple other one husband / two wives patterns - in Pentos, they have the prince of Pentos, who each year must deflower the maiden of the fields and the maiden of the sea. One husband, two wives.
On the Great and Holy Isle of Leng, the God-Empress takes tow husbands, one from the Yi Tish population, and the other fro the Lengi native population. An inversion, but the same pattern.
The Bloodstone Emperor murders his sister, the Amethyst Empress, who seems to be equivalent to Nissa Nissa, which implies she was not only his sister, but his lover. Since these are proto-Valyrians, this is not a shock. The BSE supposedly went on to marry a tiger woman, who would be his second wife, potentially.
ETA: Stannis has two wives, or two queens: the icy, frigid Celise, and the red queen, Melisandre, who is a very clear fire moon avatar. She draws off Stannis's fires to birth shadows.. that's why happened with the birth of Lightbringer. The moon was consumed in a conflagration along with sun, but the children were shadow-aspected. Things which represent Lightbringer as a child of sun and moon: dead baby Rhaego. The dragons - specifically the black dragon whose wings shadow the world and darken the world. Even Jon, a shadow among shadows, and a black brother. The meteors are light drinking black stone, and I would bet the farm that Lightbringer was a black steel sword burning with black fire, or shadow fire, as you prefer.
Consider Melisandre and her shadow babies. They are black shadows, drawn from the life fires of someone who seems to be AA turning into the NK. If we take the Night's King's sacrificing to the Others to mean he was creating white walkers, the pale shadows, with the Night's Queen (which I certainly do), then it is a parallel situation. And it means it is the mother which determines what kind of children will be born. I definitely see the NQ and Mel as analogs - Mel is transformed by fire, with moon pale skin that is warm to the touch, and the NQ was transformed by ice (hypothesis) in a similar way, with moon pale skin that is cold to the touch. If Azor Ahai becomes the Night's King, then it fits the two moons pattern very well. He births fiery, dragon blooded person with Nissa Nissa, likely the Dayne ancestors, and then goes to the Wall (just as Vorian Dayne, the "Sword of the Evening," was sent to the Wall by Nymeria... along with a dude named Lucifer... just saying). There he becomes the NK, loves the ice moon maiden, and births white shadows with her. I strongly suspect he might have become undead in between, and please don't ask me how the biology works.
By the way, I also now strongly favor (based on textual evidence of course) the idea that Azor Ahai was a greenseer who transformed himself via fire, as Melisandre is doing. I'm not saying Mel is a greenseer (though its possible if Bloodraven is her father, a theory I think has good evidence), but I am suggesting that AA was a greenseer and used the fire transformation process to become the fiery horned god.
Again, this is my avatar. The fiery horned lord. The older, darker version of Garth who demanded sacrifice.. and was himself sacrificed... everyone is sacrificed in the Dawn Age, from what I can tell.
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