wolfmaid7 Just real briefly, I see Jon as someone who can break that cycle, if he is fact of the blood of the dragon. Dany is the more obvious manifestation of the alchemical / starry wisdom blood sacrifice magic. Certainly Jon has rejected this sort of thing... But he's also been forced, repeatedly, to break his own vows and morals in order to serve a higher good. One has to wonder how far Martin will take that theme. I do think that to whatever extent there is a return comet / meteor strike to cause a new LN, Jon will be heavilly involved on a magical level. But we shall see.
I can't see Jon in this vein because he has a more natural inclination versus sorcery which is what I get surrounding AA.
Just wanted to agree with this. But as much as I really do agree with it, we cannot deny Melisandre as a sorcerer. And Ghost likes Mel. So while Jon himself does have a more natural predisposition, Ghost may not.
I hope he does. And it would be great if the next book opens with a Ghost POV as he eats the red woman's throat, but alas, I won't claim it's very likely.
I agree re: Jon and magics--he does notice and even appreciate "magic," but rejects fire and blood variety.
And on Ghost and Mel: Ghost does like Mel, but Jon makes note of the difference in their eyes. Ghost is different--tied to the dawn (comforts Jon like dawn in Game, always returns around dawn, etc.), tied to the vows of the Night's Watch--bears witness to Jon's oath. Oath in front of a weirwood.
Not at all sure what to make of Ghost's affinity odor Mel--maybe connected to why Martin says Mel is misunderstood. But there is a difference between them. Maybe Mel is getting ready for a learning curve?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Right on, they're definitely watchable, and like I said, I felt it was well worth it just for the references to previous Martin writings, of which I've read some but not all.
:::
If you end up watching the rest let me know. Mayhaps chime in on that thread with your thoughts. I disagree with his conclusion, and much of his interpretation, but it is hard to dismiss one key point. A point which bolsters your theories quite a bit.
But he's also been forced, repeatedly, to break his own vows and morals in order to serve a higher good. One has to wonder how far Martin will take that theme.
Indeed. One could say Jon has been shattered and reforged a few times already, in my opinion. Once when he told his father he was "no Stark" to save the sigil pups. Once when he was distraught over not sitting the dais and made the decision to ask his uncle Ben to join the Watch. Once when he said goodbye to Arya, and gave her Needle. Once when he accepted the hard truth Tyrion told him about the Watch not being made of a bunch of Uncle Bens. Once when he took his vows, and accepted his new brothers. Once when he killed the wight, burned (reforged) his swordhand, and gained Lonclaw. Once when he killed Qhorin. Once when he gave the lord's kiss. Once when he turned his cloak on her. Once when he was elected LC. Once when he put Rattleshirt out of his misery, and allowed wildlings to join the realms of Men. Once when he read a pink letter, and it made his blood stain the snow. Many shatterings of the blade that is Jon Snow. Many reforgings, and all of them, I would argue, have been cold, rather than fiery.
I do think that to whatever extent there is a return comet / meteor strike to cause a new LN, Jon will be heavilly involved on a magical level. But we shall see.
Yup, and in such an event, it will matter not who sits the IT. Targ blood will be as valuable as groats and coppers.
And on Ghost and Mel: Ghost does like Mel, but Jon makes note of the difference in their eyes. Ghost is different--tied to the dawn (comforts Jon like dawn in Game, always returns around dawn, etc.), tied to the vows of the Night's Watch--bears witness to Jon's oath. Oath in front of a weirwood.
There's much and more to be said for Jon's Ghost returning to his body at Dawn like that.
Not at all sure what to make of Ghost's affinity odor Mel--maybe connected to why Martin says Mel is misunderstood. But there is a difference between them. Maybe Mel is getting ready for a learning curve?
That would be cool, if Mel developed into something more real and less charlatany.
In any case, it may be like Osha said, and the wolves know more than the maesters have forgot. Mayhaps Ghost knows Mel can serve a good purpose, even if she, herself, is corrupted.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 24, 2015 23:02:58 GMT
To LmL you may get a kick out of this, a while back I think I was telling my father about one of the topics from one of your Westeros threads, and we talked about tektites, which are pieces of moon knocked off by an asteroid and fell to earth. Well I just got my birthday present from him, and he sent me two pieces of 700,000 year old Tektite found in China. Maybe what the Seastone chair is made of.
To LmL you may get a kick out of this, a while back I think I was telling my father about one of the topics from one of your Westeros threads, and we talked about tektites, which are pieces of moon knocked off by an asteroid and fell to earth. Well I just got my birthday present from him, and he sent me two pieces of 700,000 year old Tektite found in China. Maybe what the Seastone chair is made of.
Happy birthday, and what an awesome gift!
Thanks, i'd post a photo but I can't figure out how to do it.
Thanks, i'd post a photo but I can't figure out how to do it.
Very easy from tapatalk. You can take the photo from your phone/tablet, in app, or add any photo from your albums. On a computer it is more cumbersome. You have to upload it to a site like tinypic and link it.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
To LmL you may get a kick out of this, a while back I think I was telling my father about one of the topics from one of your Westeros threads, and we talked about tektites, which are pieces of moon knocked off by an asteroid and fell to earth. Well I just got my birthday present from him, and he sent me two pieces of 700,000 year old Tektite found in China. Maybe what the Seastone chair is made of.
Very cool... I have a couple myself. In fact I'm not embarrassed to say that I have a little ASOIAF rock collection. I have bloodstone, obsidian in various forms, tektites, amethyst, opal, tourmaline, jade, a white petrified tree section, etc etc. I have a round price of celestite which has a nick crack in it showing all the transparent crystal inside... Looks just like an ice dragon egg, which is why I bought it.
Add a a bit of blood sacrifice to your tektite and make it a lot bigger and you'd have a fine medium in which to carve a squid chair.
I can't see Jon in this vein because he has a more natural inclination versus sorcery which is what I get surrounding AA.
Just wanted to agree with this. But as much as I really do agree with it, we cannot deny Melisandre as a sorcerer. And Ghost likes Mel. So while Jon himself does have a more natural predisposition, Ghost may not.
I hope he does. And it would be great if the next book opens with a Ghost POV as he eats the red woman's throat, but alas, I won't claim it's very likely.
In response to this and other comments about Jon and sorcery: it may be that we need a dragon blooded person to do an un-dragonblooded person deed. Or we might need Jono to manifest his dragon instincts, but tempered by icy restraint. Swinging a red fire sword, like AA, but not recklessly, rather under control - armored in black ice. Tempered by his mother's wolf blood.
Just on in off chance RLJ is true... I know, don't throw vegetables.
In response to this and other comments about Jon and sorcery: it may be that we need a dragon blooded person to do an un-dragonblooded person deed. Or we might need Jono to manifest his dragon instincts, but tempered by icy restraint. Swinging a red fire sword, like AA, but not recklessly, rather under control - armored in black ice. Tempered by his mother's wolf blood.
Just on in off chance RLJ is true... I know, don't throw vegetables.
Psh! Like I have vegetables. LOL
Mayhaps. Though I'm leaning away from RLJ in terms of practicality and character (for both R and L), the ice and fire combo they would create is clearly a sexy idea. Tis the trope that is promised, and all.
I'm still curious to hear your input, LmL (Melisandra as well) in the Eddard IX file. For me, that chapter is quite damning for RLJ, but it is often used to support it. Makes for good debate.
Back to your idea though, I'm not sure Dragons can be tempered. And unlike Starks and their Direwolves, Dragons are the extreme unnatural incarnation of Fire, as the Others are of Ice.
If Jon is Dragon-fire, and Other-ice, I'm thinking he's far more destructive than either, rather than a pretty song about both. And really, neither scenario fits Jon's identity and character very well, imo.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
In response to this and other comments about Jon and sorcery: it may be that we need a dragon blooded person to do an un-dragonblooded person deed. Or we might need Jono to manifest his dragon instincts, but tempered by icy restraint. Swinging a red fire sword, like AA, but not recklessly, rather under control - armored in black ice. Tempered by his mother's wolf blood.
Just on in off chance RLJ is true... I know, don't throw vegetables.
Psh! Like I have vegetables. LOL
Mayhaps. Though I'm leaning away from RLJ in terms of practicality and character (for both R and L), the ice and fire combo they would create is clearly a sexy idea. Tis the trope that is promised, and all.
I'm still curious to hear your input, LmL (Melisandra as well) in the Eddard IX file. For me, that chapter is quite damning for RLJ, but it is often used to support it. Makes for good debate.
Back to your idea though, I'm not sure Dragons can be tempered. And unlike Starks and their Direwolves, Dragons are the extreme unnatural incarnation of Fire, as the Others are of Ice.
If Jon is Dragon-fire, and Other-ice, I'm thinking he's far more destructive than either, rather than a pretty song about both. And really, neither scenario fits Jon's identity and character very well, imo.
Really, you don't see how two opposite forces might balance each other out? I'd say this is one of the main points of the entire series. The song of ice and fire, where ice and fire are in harmony and balance. A human incarnation of both would have the best chance at mediating the differences - just as a Mithras-type character should.
The dragons can be tempered, absolutely. That's what Eddard is replaying in the winterfell godswood cold black pond when he dips the black and bloody dragon sword into the cold water. When Dany the bloody moon maiden dips herself into the cold black waters of the Womb of the World. Dragonstone, the black stone fortress, sitting in the middle of Blackwater bay is the same idea. So too the moon meteors which landed at Pyke and plunged into the water as the sea dragon. A smoking hot sword must be dipped in icy water.
I was a beggar queen and you were Xaro of the Thirteen, Dany thought, and all you wanted were my dragons. “Your slaves seemed well treated and content. It was not till Astapor that my eyes were opened. Do you know how Unsullied are made and trained?”
“Cruelly, I have no doubt. When a smith makes a sword, he thrusts the blade into the fire, beats on it with a hammer, then plunges it into iced water to temper the steel. If you would savor the sweet taste of the fruit, you must water the tree.”
Really, you don't see how two opposite forces might balance each other out? I'd say this is one of the main points of the entire series. The song of ice and fire, where ice and fire are in harmony and balance. A human incarnation of both would have the best chance at mediating the differences - just as a Mithras-type character should.
Not only do I see it, that is why I said it is the sexy pick. Its lack of subtlety, and the predictability of hidden princes in fantasy, do make me wonder if there isn't another solution to the problem, however. And I think there is.
The dragons can be tempered, absolutely. That's what Eddard is replaying in the winterfell godswood cold black pond when he dips the black and bloody dragon sword into the cold water. When Dany the bloody moon maiden dips herself into the cold black waters of the Womb of the World. Dragonstone, the black stone fortress, sitting in the middle of Blackwater bay is the same idea. So too the moon meteors which landed at Pyke and plunged into the water as the sea dragon. A smoking hot sword must be dipped in icy water.
Good stuff. And I quite agree. Thing is, there are dragons shaped like swords, that in reality, are simply a different version of steel. There are dragons shaped like Dany, that in reality, are simply orphan teenagers. There are dragons shaped like castles, but in reality, they are simply fused stone amid a calm sound, and the blackwater ends up just being water. These things are symbolically connected to dragons, but far more inert in reality.
While Jon may well be the product of R+L, and give us the ice and fire promised one, I have a hard time reconciling such a proposition with Jon's weirwood colored direwolf, his own physical appearance, his lack of madness, his lack of obsession with dragons... and I have an even harder time reconciling this with who Rhaegar was, and who Lyanna was.
Rhaegar believed he already succeeded in siring tptwp, in his son Aegon. If anything, he sought to produce another fiery sister-wife for his boy, not an ice and fire son - because he already had him.
And Lyanna's thoughts on infidelity are well known. Again, Sansa is not compared to her, Arya is. Lyanna was as likely to have fallen for Rhaegar as Arya was to have fallen for Joffrey - after the execution of Ned (as both Lyanna's father and brother were killed due to their "courtship").
Symbolism is great, but it cannot change a she-wolf's nature.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Good stuff. And I quite agree. Thing is, there are dragons shaped like swords, that in reality, are simply a different version of steel. There are dragons shaped like Dany, that in reality, are simply orphan teenagers. There are dragons shaped like castles, but in reality, they are simply fused stone amid a calm sound, and the blackwater ends up just being water. These things are symbolically connected to dragons, but far more inert in reality.
YUP!! Jon doesn't want a symbol for a sword. He wants THE sword. QUOTE: Jon unsheathed Longclaw and showed it to them, turning it this way and that so they could admire it. The bastard blade glittered in the pale sunlight, dark and deadly. "Valyrian steel," he declared solemnly, trying to sound as pleased and proud as he ought to have felt. Game, Jon VIII
That sword gift is AMAZING. And he knows he should be pleased and proud and all of the rest of it, even with all that is going on. It's not what he wants. The symbols aren't enough anymore--the reality is coming back. Jon wants the father's sword, not symbols. Reality.
While Jon may well be the product of R+L, and give us the ice and fire promised one, I have a hard time reconciling such a proposition with Jon's weirwood colored direwolf, his own physical appearance, his lack of madness, his lack of obsession with dragons... and I have an even harder time reconciling this with who Rhaegar was, and who Lyanna was
I'm still not ready to let go of RLJ, but agree re: ice and fire. ladybarbrey was talking about this over on my Westeros thread--the middle, the tempered space between ice and fire may not be intense magics, but "the song of the earth." A song that gets thrown off by discord.
Back to the moment Jon sees the ice at dawn outside Craster's--that seems like a balancing magic--natural, beautiful, non-violent, transformative. But not requiring extremes. Not about power or dominion. Just life an beauty. Maybe.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
That sword gift is AMAZING. And he knows he should be pleased and proud and all of the rest of it, even with all that is going on. It's not what he wants. The symbols aren't enough anymore--the reality is coming back. Jon wants the father's sword, not symbols. Reality.
And, we have to ask, why does that Valyrian steel feel so wrong in his hand?
In answer, Jon had pressed Longclaw into Sam's hand. He let him feel the lightness, the balance, had him turn the blade so that ripples gleamed in the smoke-dark metal. "Valyrian steel," he said, "spell-forged and razor-sharp, nigh on indestructible. A swordsman should be as good as his sword, Sam. Longclaw is Valyrian steel, but I'm not.
I'm still not ready to let go of RLJ, but agree re: ice and fire. ladybarbrey was talking about this over on my Westeros thread--the middle, the tempered space between ice and fire may not be intense magics, but "the song of the earth." A song that gets thrown off by discord.
That's my thinking as well. I'm thinking Jon represents something far older and far more Westerosi than Valyrianism. I still quite like the idea of RLJ, truth be told. But I'm not seeing how it can be resolved with what we know of Rhaegar's beliefs (Aegon being tptwp and the song of ice and fire being his), and Lyanna's character (disliking infidelity and the making of bastards).
Back to the moment Jon sees the ice at dawn outside Craster's--that seems like a balancing magic--natural, beautiful, non-violent, transformative. But not requiring extremes. Not about power or dominion. Just life an beauty. Maybe.
As natural as dawn itself, or a white wolf.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Post by regular jon umber on Sept 25, 2015 8:36:20 GMT
( These threads have been racing lately so I'm just picking up things that stick out at the moment, sorry for jumping into the middle of old conversations)
Really, you don't see how two opposite forces might balance each other out? I'd say this is one of the main points of the entire series. The song of ice and fire, where ice and fire are in harmony and balance. A human incarnation of both would have the best chance at mediating the differences - just as a Mithras-type character should.
It's tempting to believe that there must be balance - after all, Ice and Fire are pretty much exact opposites, on the surface.
However, I tend to feel differently. Ice and Fire are Weapons. They're also not natural. They exist in conflict with each other and with everything else on Planetos. They're WMDs - worse, they're intelligent WMDs - and their very existence throws out all semblance of balance.
The only real balance that can be had is for all Magic (Ice and Fire) to truly disappear, and for men and non-men to find a real, lasting pact.
When one says the Others were corrupted with ice magic what does that mean? Ice nor fire has evil or good characteristics they are just elements that individuals use.The problem isn't magic,the problem is those who wield it so magic being gone form the world won't solve anything.Plus that's impossible,for that happen there will still be an imbalance.The world will cease to be.You's have to get rid of everything magical and everything that has magical blood so all magical families will have to die and that won't happen.You can't get rid of all the Skinchagers for instance that is an impossible task. Instead i think its important to look at what GRRM speaks about in terms of the human heart in conflict with itself,but not only itself nature.
There isn't a balance and there probably never was because of those with the power to do what's right for 'all' working their own agenda. What is needed is someone sitting in the greenseeing seat who knows how to serve.Who sees all as one who recognizes and wants to bridge the gap and that has nothing to do with ice and fire elements that has to do with the person's heart.
Jon seems like to do that because he seeks to understand as in the case of the Wildlings,giants and even the Others.By doing that he'll be better able when the time comes to balance the seasons where all life can live.It will suck for him and a few people but that's what sacrifice is about.
So the reason Westeros isn't in balance has nothing to do with balancing ice and fire elements.Its about balancing those characteristic inside the human heart so those with the power to do shit can do what's needing to be done for all.And i'm looking at the greenseers those selfish bastards are royaly fracking up.They need to be changed with others who understand service. Note the only thing that will change when this is all over is man will be warring in a balance wheel of the year.Its not like they are going to have an ephiphany and sing kombaya forever.
Last Edit: Sept 25, 2015 16:14:23 GMT by wolfmaid7
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"