I never really looked at it this way, but something in it sounds right. I really think that you're onto something. It seems like it fits right in with the overarching theme of incest in all of these powerful families.
Very through its one of those little tidbits that i believe connecting Robert,Lyanna and Jon.One could see see the brother connection.Him and Robert were close he would want the same for Jon and Robb seeing as he's basically fostering Jon.
was thinking of something similar, but in a different direction.
What if, from Ned's POV, Jon was in danger not from Robert, but in danger from Cersei?
Robert and Cersei had wed by the time Ned returns from the south with a bastard. He had left in a cold rage after Cersei's father had murdered two children. Cersei's murder of Robert's bastards is a significant plot line in Clash, and in Game, Eddard raises such suspicions with Cersei herself:
Yep i had pointed it out in my essay.Ned was basically the one who decided what protecting Jon looked like.Robert at that point had the Lannisters around him.It also turns out from the narrative Cersie is "Xing" out Robert's bastards.They are the ones who are vulnerable and in trouble at the moment.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
I came across what i believe is z pretty sweet double entendre and what i believe is a clue from the author.
So this is Ned musings after he discovered Gendry and how he was no closer to discovering why Jon Arryn was killed.The phrasing is intriguing especially in light of what occured with Arya 3 chapters later.
Lysa Arryn held her silence behind the high walls of the Eyrie. The squire was dead, and Jory was still searching the whorehouses. What did he have but Robert’s bastard? (Ned,agot.
Father, they were talking about killing you! Not the monsters, the two men. They didn't see me, I was being still as stone and quiet as a shadow, but I heard them. They said you had a book and a bastard and if one Hand could die, why not a second? Is that the book? Jon's the bastard, I bet." "Jon? Arya, what are you talking about? Who said this?"(Arya,Wizard chaper)
It also makes sense if Jon is Lyanna's son by Robert. 'Let them be brothers' as he and Robert were brothers and more than brothers.
It does.
But there are other holes that emerge when we consider Robert+Lyanna=Jon. First, is the timeline, and Lyanna's disappearance specifically. Robert would have been fighting to get Lyanna back during the time when Jon should have been sired and concieved.
If Robert did that, why did he think Rhaegar had Lyanna?
Secondly, there is the issue of Ned's secrecy. Ned's secrecy no longer makes sense if Jon is Robert's child. Robert has bastards all over the realm, and Jon would not have been the first, the last, nor the only one sired upon a woman of noble blood.
And, Robert+Lyanna does nothing to explain Ned's wrath when confronted by Catelyn, nor the silencing of Ashara Dayne's name in Winterfell.
I don't care who Jon's parents end up being, to be honest. But I prefer candidates that tie up these loose ends rather than create more.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
It also makes sense if Jon is Lyanna's son by Robert. 'Let them be brothers' as he and Robert were brothers and more than brothers.
It does.
But there are other holes that emerge when we consider Robert+Lyanna=Jon. First, is the timeline, and Lyanna's disappearance specifically. Robert would have been fighting to get Lyanna back during the time when Jon should have been sired and concieved.
If Robert did that, why did he think Rhaegar had Lyanna?
Secondly, there is the issue of Ned's secrecy. Ned's secrecy no longer makes sense if Jon is Robert's child. Robert has bastards all over the realm, and Jon would not have been the first, the last, nor the only one sired upon a woman of noble blood.
And, Robert+Lyanna does nothing to explain Ned's wrath when confronted by Catelyn, nor the silencing of Ashara Dayne's name in Winterfell.
I don't care who Jon's parents end up being, to be honest. But I prefer candidates that tie up these loose ends rather than create more.
If Jon was born on the day that Robert celebrates his victories at Summerhall; where does that place Ned? Was he travelling between the Eyrie and Winterfell? This take him to the vicinity of the Quiet Isle on his way to the Crossroads Inn and then the Kingsroad? If Lyanna, died in a bed of blood with Ned in attendance; where were they if not the ToJ or Starfall, if not the Quiet Isle where 'they' found him? This would mean that Jon is older than we think as well as Dany since she is 8 or 9 months older than Jon. Jon's conception would be sometime shortly after the Tourney at Harrenhall. But I am not a timeline expert. So perhaps someone can clarify.
If this is true; then it would support Markg and Sly Wren that Dany's story is full of holes. It seems more likely to me that she is the daughter of Ashara and Aerys and that Dany was born at Kingslanding where the summer storms are fierce and frequent. Dany would be the child that was stolen and hidden by Varys. Kitchen gossip that Cersei throws out at Ned swinging wildly on the chance that she might land a punch.
This would mean that Jon is older than we think as well as Dany since she is 8 or 9 months older than Jon. Jon's conception would be sometime shortly after the Tourney at Harrenhall.
According to GRRM, Jon is older than Dany, by 8-9 months, rather than the other way around.
This means that Jon may have been born around the time of the Sack of King's Landing, as Dany was born 8-9 months after it.
I quite like the idea of Robert+Lyanna, and tossed that idea out in Heresy several years ago long before the XYJ essays. But I don't think it fits well with the Timeline, or Lyanna's character. Lyanna balked at the idea of marrying Robert specifically because of his nature to sire bastards. Rather than explain-away or contradict that, I lean towards theories that incorporate Lyanna's protest.
For me, Lyanna is the starting point of any theory that attempts to nominate her as Jon's mother. Once we do that, we have to fit whatever comes next into the character of Lyanna as the text presents her. This tends to rule out Robert and Rhaegar immediately in my mind, as she did not favor men who would not keep to one bed.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
That's what I meant. Jon is older than Dany by 8 or 9 months.
Oh I think Robert was insanely jealous to the point where he had to possess Lyanna after the perceived threat by Rhaegar. His obsession with Rhaegar raping Lyanna "thousands and thousands of times" sounds like projected guilt. I think Lyanna ran because Robert forced himself on her and I think she went into hiding on the Quiet Isle.
In Robert's deathbed delirium his confesses in a manner "that there was nobody to tell him no" and "it was wrong, she was only a girl child." I doubt this has anything to do with Dany.
If Robert did that, why did he think Rhaegar had Lyanna?
Because it fits the lie he tells himself. He won't admit that Lyanna ran because of him; that his behavior was wrong; so it can only mean that she was kidnapped by Rhaegar.
In Robert's deathbed delirium his confesses in a manner "that there was nobody to tell him no" and "it was wrong, she was only a girl child." I doubt this has anything to do with Dany.
If you want to make the case for this being a parallel with a non-Dany female, I can dig that, but Robert is clearly talking about the attempt on Dany's life.
Oh I think Robert was insanely jealous to the point where he had to possess Lyanna after the perceived threat by Rhaegar. His obsession with Rhaegar raping Lyanna "thousands and thousands of times" sounds like projected guilt. I think Lyanna ran because Robert forced himself on her and I think she went into hiding on the Quiet Isle.
Because it fits the lie he tells himself. He won't admit that Lyanna ran because of him; that his behavior was wrong; so it can only mean that she was kidnapped by Rhaegar.
I completely agree that Robert is living in his own reality when it comes to Lyanna, but this wasn't just projected guilt and a lie Robert told himself.
Bran:
"Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her," Bran explained. "Robert fought a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all."
Barristan:
Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. [...] Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice.
Kevan:
She will never wash the stain away, no matter how hard she scrubs. Ser Kevan remembered the girl she once had been, so full of life and mischief. And when she'd flowered, ahhhh … had there ever been a maid so sweet to look upon? If Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes … and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun.
Maester Yandel:
Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.
And again, I think we should begin with Lyanna, rather than any man, in scenarios that involve her being a mother.
In my opinion, it doesn't matter what Robert thought about Rhaegar. It matters what Lyanna thought of Robert.
That's what I meant. Jon is older than Dany by 8 or 9 months.
Indeed, per the author's own words.
But this is what makes Robert+Lyanna=Jon impractical as a theory in terms of the timeline. Jon would have been born around the time of the Sack of KL, and sired around 9 months before that.
This would mean that Robert took time out from the Battle of the Bells to have sex with Lyanna.
Lyanna was not the cause of Robert's Rebellion, but there can be no doubt that her absence was a rallying cry and that the rumored abdution had been touted by rebles as a call to action, and by loyalists as a doomed romance.
Whether or not Lyanna was with Rhaegar, it seems clear that she was not with Robert. And, most importantly, she didn't want to be.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I give the singers versions of anything let alone the Rhaegar/Lyanna love story as much credibility as Tyrion for telling the truth rather than entertaining or political expediency ... little and less. Same with Maester Yandel.
I'm not going by Dany's official birthdate. I think the story of her birth at Dragonstone is a ruse. I'm saying that Jon was born the day Robert won the battles of Summerhall before the Sack of King's Landing. Where was Robert 9 months before that? Was Ned travelling from the Eyrie to Winterfell around the time of the Battles of Summerhall?
We need one of those mix and match worksheets, 'parents' in a column on the left, 'children' on the right, because there is also Dany to consider.
I've drifted away from Ned+Ashara because Ashara fits so well as Dany's mother. markg171 and SlyWren have come up with some great arguments and connections. Mark favors Lyanna as Dany's mother, but his (f)Dany essay covers the Ashara angle as well, and I think it's the stronger of the two.
Are there any other notable children born around 283-285? Gotta be.
But there are other holes that emerge when we consider Robert+Lyanna=Jon. First, is the timeline, and Lyanna's disappearance specifically. Robert would have been fighting to get Lyanna back during the time when Jon should have been sired and concieved.
If Robert did that, why did he think Rhaegar had Lyanna?
Secondly, there is the issue of Ned's secrecy. Ned's secrecy no longer makes sense if Jon is Robert's child. Robert has bastards all over the realm, and Jon would not have been the first, the last, nor the only one sired upon a woman of noble blood.
And, Robert+Lyanna does nothing to explain Ned's wrath when confronted by Catelyn, nor the silencing of Ashara Dayne's name in Winterfell.
I don't care who Jon's parents end up being, to be honest. But I prefer candidates that tie up these loose ends rather than create more.
I don't believe there is a problem with the timeline.Its one of those things i believe will be proven to be a stumbling block for what is right there subtly hidden in plain sight.
I believe Jon was intentionally raised to believe he was a certain age and that reason has nothing to do with hiding him and more to do with ensuring Robb position as ist son and all the societal perks that come with that label.The moment Ned claimed Jon as his son, that was all the protection Jon needed.Ned as father means any other would be considered except Lyanna.
After everything that happened at Harrenhall and knowing that a marriage was around the corner for Lyanna and Robert i believe she went to the Vale with Robert and Ned.Makes sense.
Brandon getting bad info probably has nothing to do with Lyanna actually being safe. In a world where there is no phones and Brandon dont seem the type to make sure about stuff i can see this being the case.
Lets look at it, we have the fishermans daughter story which means Jon's conception could be before Roberts rebellion.If this is a rumor then to us its obvious Jon is older than say Robb.But nobody cares because
1.They dont know Robbs birthday so who cares.
2.Even if they did know something like that Jons not legit, and no one wants to rock that boat and put ideas in the head of a bastard who would finally realize i'm not second son.
Then we Ashara a woman who Ned could have banged anytime from Harrenhall and during the rebellion to father Jon.Its all about perception and potential benefit to a possible X factor if its usable.
My problem with the rebuttal against my statement that Jon could have been 2.5 yrs when Cat got to Winterfell and it wouldn't be strange is that Ned back then said nothing about Jon other than he is my blood.So comparing Jon to Robb in size and guessing would make no sense when you have possible mothers all over the timeline.As time went on would anyone remember to care? Sneak in Robb being older by having everyone treat him as such and you got a plan.
Next,Lyanna's so called disappearence something oddly enough we don't hear from Ned or Robert.Nowhere does any of them refer to an abduction.Does it occur to anybody that the Rebeles hid Lyanna and maybe Robert thought Rhagear found Lyanna and did stuff to her?
Robert beating the crap out of Rhaegar for a woman kidnapped and yet not asking where said woman was is still odd.Voice you know Robert wasn't fighting to get Lya back.That was the story singers told to make it sound more romantic.
Per Ned they fought to win a crown and to stop the murder of babies.Lyanna was tacked on after the fact by the Westrosi Enquier.Nobody would care about Roberts woman.For 10drs a day and food maybe a bit a land....my sword sir.
Neds secrecy makes perfect sense if he didnt want Jon to be at court with that stigma of bastard.As i showed in my essay even if Jon was legitimized he would still be seen as an abomination.Ned knows that.15 years later when Cat tells him Jon aint staying in WF and throws up how many bastards Robert has.What was his reply none of them has been seen at court because of Cersie. Neds been watching he knows the environment.Telling Robert in his mind would do Jon no favors.
Why does Robert and Lyanna have to explain why Asharas name was silenced? Why does it have to explain Cats wrath?
After everything that happened at Harrenhall and knowing that a marriage was around the corner for Lyanna and Robert i believe she went to the Vale with Robert and Ned.
I think so as well. Especially after behaving like a fishwife instead of a refined lady; not unlike Arya who also has a tendency to be a course-mannered woman prone to shouting.
Wraith you are correct it is an Eddard+Ashara thread.My apologies we know where the Robert+Lyanna thread is i'll post there.
By the way i want Septore Lemore to be Ashara so bad.I really believe we need somebody to intimately tie this aspect together.I'm also intrigued by the fact that there is a milk brother scenario via Jon and via the Dayne.They made sure that Edric was aware that he and Jon Snow are Milk brothers.
I don't know if GRRM is utilizing that practice in full or part.It seems in part so far example Jacareys Valeryion and Daeron Targaryen.Done so there would be no bad blood between them.
If this be the case it may have been done so there would be no hard feelings between the Daynes and a house that was seen as an enemy.
By the time Edric came along Jon already left the breast.So bonding and fostering was not the purpose,so it had to be strategic and political.
By the way i want Septore Lemore to be Ashara so bad.I really believe we need somebody to intimately tie this aspect together.I'm also intrigued by the fact that there is a milk brother scenario via Jon and via the Dayne.They made sure that Edric was aware that he and Jon Snow are Milk brothers.
I don't know if GRRM is utilizing that practice in full or part.It seems in part so far example Jacareys Valeryion and Daeron Targaryen.Done so there would be no bad blood between them.
If this be the case it may have been done so there would be no hard feelings between the Daynes and a house that was seen as an enemy.
By the time Edric came along Jon already left the breast.So bonding and fostering was not the purpose,so it had to be strategic and political.
I'll respond to this part in the Ned+Ashara thread.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I still think that Lyanna ran from Robert and went into hiding at the Quiet Isle. It's curious that Septa Lemore wears white robes:
A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IV "Good morrow, Hugor." Septa Lemore had emerged in her white robes, cinched at the waist with a woven belt of seven colors. Her hair flowed loose about her shoulders. "How did you sleep?"
And Theon dreams of Lyanna dressed in a white gown spattered with blood:
A Clash of Kings - Theon V But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.
I'm not suggesting they are one in the same; only that Lemore is disguising herself as a Septa.
Septas
Female clergy are called "septas", and there are various orders of devotion amongst them. There are orders of septas, called white, grey, or blue septas, but it is unrevealed to which aspect of the deity each of them is devoted. There are convents of septas called motherhouses, including a large one in Oldtown and another in Bechester. Septas often serve as governesses in the households of the high nobility. A trial of a woman conducted by the Faith will have septas sitting among the seven judges.
I also think there is a connection between Lyanna and the Weeping Woman:
- Ned dreams of Lyanna's statue weeping tears of blood - Sansa sees the statue of the weeping woman broken in two and half buried at the Eyrie - Arya sees the status of the weeping woman beside the lion of night in the HoB&W - Davos recounts the story of Robert's feast featuring the twin white fawns spattered in blood and beside it the sleeping lion nearly torn in two