Sorry guys, but I really am not interested in debating this. There's an awful lot to discuss and I just have zero interest in this. To me it's a dead issue.
Pun intended.
If it turns out RLJ is somehow not true, I will worship the wisdom of whomever got it right. Until then... I really just have no desire to spend the little time I have for forum discussion these days beating this very dead horse.
Do you dude.I shall return the favor.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
Sorry guys, but I really am not interested in debating this. There's an awful lot to discuss and I just have zero interest in this. To me it's a dead issue.
Pun intended.
If it turns out RLJ is somehow not true, I will worship the wisdom of whomever got it right. Until then... I really just have no desire to spend the little time I have for forum discussion these days beating this very dead horse.
Do you dude.I shall return the favor.
Nothing personal, Wolfmaid. I'm not boycotting all of your theories or anything. I'm just not interested in debating RLJ anymore.
The great rite: couples hooking up and having sex at Beltane. The most important hook up at Beltane is the union of the floral goddess and the horned god in what is known as the “sacred marriage.
Reading the Mists of Avalon gave me a much better insight into the horned lord archetype than I had before. I agree with your take on this and would go a step further: I think George uses all tourneys to convey this concept and that the champions of jousting events we see can all be considered as 'horned lords' with a special significance. Complementing the horned lords are the Queens of Love and Beauty, who always signify the Goddess. In my view and interpreted in terms of inheritance, this makes both the champion and the QoLaB the bearer of a special blood trait. This is certainly so with Lyanna and also with Rhaegar, whose previous status as the last dragon is an indication that he inherited the blood of the dragon. This does not mean that the two parties eventually hook up, indeed, in most cases they don't and in Jorah's case it didn't work out. However one reads the evidence in favour of one man or another as Jon's father, he most certainly must be of the horned lord archetype and Robert fits in quite well here. I'm not 100% convinced but your line of reasoning is worth thinking about.
Robert seemed quite unconcerned 'when all the smiles died' - a strange reaction for one who was betrothed to crowned lady. There are alternative explanations for this but it also fits in with this theory.
Quirky Seasons: Under the sea, men marry fishes More on bluewinterroses.com
The great rite: couples hooking up and having sex at Beltane. The most important hook up at Beltane is the union of the floral goddess and the horned god in what is known as the “sacred marriage.
Reading the Mists of Avalon gave me a much better insight into the horned lord archetype than I had before. I agree with your take on this and would go a step further: I think George uses all tourneys to convey this concept and that the champions of jousting events we see can all be considered as 'horned lords' with a special significance. Complementing the horned lords are the Queens of Love and Beauty, who always signify the Goddess. In my view and interpreted in terms of inheritance, this makes both the champion and the QoLaB the bearer of a special blood trait. This is certainly so with Lyanna and also with Rhaegar, whose previous status as the last dragon is an indication that he inherited the blood of the dragon. This does not mean that the two parties eventually hook up, indeed, in most cases they don't and in Jorah's case it didn't work out. However one reads the evidence in favour of one man or another as Jon's father, he most certainly must be of the horned lord archetype and Robert fits in quite well here. I'm not 100% convinced but your line of reasoning is worth thinking about.
Robert seemed quite unconcerned 'when all the smiles died' - a strange reaction for one who was betrothed to crowned lady. There are alternative explanations for this but it also fits in with this theory.
Thanks Evollet.We have certainly spoken about the Champion Jouster and a lot of people for whatever reason want to superimpose the Horned god archetype on him because he "won" the tourney and crowned Lyanna.However,that's not how it works.
Their are many archetypes of the Horned gods and its important to know which one is in play so you can trace.GRRM took the time to emphasize the tiny little things to indicate that the Baratheons are living the Oak/Holly king myths and the archetype.
GRRM has depicted Robert as the Horned god i.e the green man and the traits that people find detestable in Robert is what exemplifies him as the type.The warrior,drinker with amazing sexuall prowress.
GRRM also depicted him as the Holly king; fat jolly man,big gut ,sparkling laughing eyes,rosy red cheecks-Santa Claus.Or the Queens consort and corn king(show you the text later).
Summer of his life and winter of his life.
Rhaegar is none of these because he wasn't written to be that way.What ever archetype he is.Rhaegar isnt that.
The Tourney possibly won because he cheated which makes it even worse.
Which brings me to this point...What naturally occurs against what forcibly works.Ive said this before magic/nature the land itself,fate is also a player.The thing that occurs without being manipulated.You bring up an important thing about lineage showed in The Mist of Avalon(one of my favorite books and movie)
I hope you caught this in it though,its been a while since i read the book but if i remember correctly,Uther wasn't Arthur's father...It was the Horned god from the previous festival that was glamored to look like Uther.Likewise, Modred was really Arthur's(Horned god from another festiv) son,and he was raised as King Lot's son.
The real father was never the shining Knight/hero or king in the public eye,but the other guy in the secret ritual behind that no one knew was happening .All behind the glamorous Knights and Kings the raw call of nature.
So yeah it obvious and easy to jump to Rhaegar being Jon's father just because he crowned Lyanna in public and miss the symbolism behind the scene.As you may notice Lyanna didnt pick up the crown Ned did..That says a lot.
As to Robert's reaction he did the right thing.He said Rhaegar was just giving Lyanna her due.But it was said behind closed doors he was angry and his heart hardened towards Rhaegar.
So he didnt ignore it,he played it off and spun it positively and was pissed about it behind closed doors.
Lastly,back to the point about lineage and my statement about nature being a player so to speak.While Rhaegar was the last Dragon...well Dany is now and there's that lineage.
The Baratheons are the only ones that can trace their lineage to gods..I'm not saying actual gods were involved they were possibly magical it was the act intertwined House Stark and the Baratheons.
Rhaegar is none of these because he wasn't written to be that way.What ever archetype he is.Rhaegar isnt that.
The Tourney possibly won because he cheated which makes it even worse.
Agreed - the aspect of possible cheating also rules him out for me. Rhaegar isn't my first choice for fatherhood. There are too many signs pointing in other directions, imo.
I hope you caught this in it though,its been a while since i read the book but if i remember correctly,Uther wasn't Arthur's father...It was the Horned god from the previous festival that was glamored to look like Uther.Likewise, Modred was really Arthur's(Horned god from another festiv) son,and he was raised as King Lot's son.
The real father was never the shining Knight/hero or king in the public eye,but the other guy in the secret ritual behind that no one knew was happening .All behind the glamorous Knights and Kings the raw call of nature.
There are many versions of the story and actually, Uther was Arthur's father in the Mists of Avalon but he appeared at Tintagel glamoured as Gorlois by the Merlin. Igraine recognized him and that night Arthur was conceived. But Arthur was sent away to be fostered for his own safety and most were not aware that Uther had a son until after his death when Arthur claimed Uther's sword.
As to Robert's reaction he did the right thing.He said Rhaegar was just giving Lyanna her due.But it was said behind closed doors he was angry and his heart hardened towards Rhaegar.
So he didnt ignore it,he played it off and spun it positively and was pissed about it behind closed doors.
True - forgot about his displeasure behind the scenes.
The Baratheons are the only ones that can trace their lineage to gods..I'm not saying actual gods were involved they were possibly magical it was the act intertwined House Stark and the Baratheons.
This is probably worth looking into in respect of your theory.
Quirky Seasons: Under the sea, men marry fishes More on bluewinterroses.com
There are many versions of the story and actually, Uther was Arthur's father in the Mists of Avalon but he appeared at Tintagel glamoured as Gorlois by the Merlin. Igraine recognized him and that night Arthur was conceived. But Arthur was sent away to be fostered for his own safety and most were not aware that Uther had a son until after his death when Arthur claimed Uther's sword.
Gotcha,the one i stated was one of the tales i remembered ,i wasn't sure if it was that book,or one of the other accounts i read.
Okay... so I may have been slightly rough with that artistic depiction of Lyanna.
DeviantArt user poly-m has created a very nice and plausible likeness by combining Arya and Sansa's faces together:
P.S. While not really my cup of tea, poly-m has also created a very nice illustration of Rhaegar and Lyanna in the midst of courtship at the tower of joy.
Many a night she had watched Prince Rhaegar in the hall, playing his silver-stringed harp with those long, elegant fingers of his. Had any man ever been so beautiful? He was more than a man, though. -- Cersei (a transgender advocate)
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I'm doing a bit of a re-read and noticed something i never noticed before.It may be something maybe not,but i think its a character associative theme.
"If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection."-Got pg.51.
"Robert will never harm me or mine,we were closer than brother.-Got.Pg 59.
"You say you love Robert like a brother,would you leave your brother surrounded by Lannister?"-Got.Pg 63.
"He looked across the room at Robert. His old friend, closer than any brother. "Please, Robert. For the love you bear me. For the love you bore my sister.Please."-Got.pg 158-159.
"What's hapened he(Jon) asked."The King is dead<snip> "Jon,I'm sorry, he was your father's friend wasn't he? "They were close as brothers once."Got pg 559-560
Above is a list of quotes that establishes Ned and Robert's relationship as brotherly.They were closer to each other than even their own brothers and regarded each other as such.
This pattern is affirmed by Ned,Robert...and Jon with Cat repeating what Ned told her of his relationship with Robert.Ned and Robert were fosterd together as we know which explains the reasons for them being close.
Now let's look at this:
but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. “… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them,” he prayed, “and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …”<snip> The rest of his father’s words were drowned out by a sudden clatter of wood on wood“Eddard Stark dissolved, like mist in a morning sun. Now two children danced across the godswood, hooting at one another as they dueled with broken branches. The girl was the older and taller of the two. Dance.pg 459.
I'm looking at this and can't help but see the allusions through Ned's prayer.That His son and Robert's son would be close as brothers as he and Robert were....In Jon their house finally untied by blood and affection.
What do you guys think?
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
I'm doing a bit of a re-read and noticed something i never noticed before.It may be something maybe not,but i think its a character associative theme.
"If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection."-Got pg.51.
"Robert will never harm me or mine,we were closer than brother.-Got.Pg 59.
"You say you love Robert like a brother,would you leave your brother surrounded by Lannister?"-Got.Pg 63.
"He looked across the room at Robert. His old friend, closer than any brother. "Please, Robert. For the love you bear me. For the love you bore my sister.Please."-Got.pg 158-159.
"What's hapened he(Jon) asked."The King is dead<snip> "Jon,I'm sorry, he was your father's friend wasn't he? "They were close as brothers once."Got pg 559-560
Above is a list of quotes that establishes Ned and Robert's relationship as brotherly.They were closer to each other than even their own brothers and regarded each other as such.
This pattern is affirmed by Ned,Robert...and Jon with Cat repeating what Ned told her of his relationship with Robert.Ned and Robert were fosterd together as we know which explains the reasons for them being close.
Now let's look at this:
but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. “… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them,” he prayed, “and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …”<snip> The rest of his father’s words were drowned out by a sudden clatter of wood on wood“Eddard Stark dissolved, like mist in a morning sun. Now two children danced across the godswood, hooting at one another as they dueled with broken branches. The girl was the older and taller of the two. Dance.pg 459.
I'm looking at this and can't help but see the allusions through Ned's prayer.That His son and Robert's son would be close as brothers as he and Robert were....In Jon their house finally untied by blood and affection.
What do you guys think?
I never really looked at it this way, but something in it sounds right. I really think that you're onto something. It seems like it fits right in with the overarching theme of incest in all of these powerful families.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
I'm looking at this and can't help but see the allusions through Ned's prayer.That His son and Robert's son would be close as brothers as he and Robert were....In Jon their house finally untied by blood and affection.
What do you guys think?
I agree.
I just stumbled upon this from the mothership as well. I'd be curious to hear your take on it.
Aeron said:
Shewoman said: If Jon is Robert's son, why didn't Ned tell him that? Why couldn't Robert raise him?
Well first off he promised Lyanna for whatsoever reason, and if she made him promise, and he was roberts, there was reason for it. Not only that, Robert loved Lyanna and the fact of knowing he killed her, (in a way) would make him depressed if not angry. And the blame for Lyanna's death would fall on Jon. Not a very good father to son relationship.
I was thinking of something similar, but in a different direction.
What if, from Ned's POV, Jon was in danger not from Robert, but in danger from Cersei?
Robert and Cersei had wed by the time Ned returns from the south with a bastard. He had left in a cold rage after Cersei's father had murdered two children. Cersei's murder of Robert's bastards is a significant plot line in Clash, and in Game, Eddard raises such suspicions with Cersei herself:
“My son Bran...”
To her credit, Cersei did not look away. “He saw us. You love your children, do you not?”
Robert had asked him the very same question, the morning of the melee. He gave her the same answer. “With all my heart.”
“No less do I love mine.”
Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."