Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 23, 2015 19:47:05 GMT
I'll go ahead and put my two cents in. I think the weakest part of the argument is how they met. I'd suggest another possibility, that Mance was the Night's Watch recruiter at the Harrenhal tourney. It makes sense when you think about it. Mance is charismatic and a musician so it would make sense that they would make use of him to romantacize joining the Night's Watch in the south. Lyanna perhaps catches Mance's eye at the dinner when he notices how Rhaegar's song affects her.
The only daughter of Rickard Stark was a strong-willed tomboy with grey eyes and brown hair, skilled at horses, and practiced at rings. She had a wild streak that her family called the “wolf blood”. This independent young woman was distressed to learn that she was to be betrothed to Robert Baratheon. She expressed her concern to Ned that Robert would never keep to one bed. She was so desperate to avoid marriage that she sentenced herself to the Wall disguised as a boy, and one of the first people that she recognized was Mance.
Its better than i thought it would be Feather good job.I think what's iffy about it is it requires a bit of creative filler.Plus, considerable time passed between Lya's bethrothal to her disappearence why wait so long? The both of them meeting is also iffy.
I like the highlighting that there is some weird crap happening with Mance and i want to ask a question what do you think of the black brother who was at the Tourney?
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
I like this version a lot better! Still seems like its missing that big punch, but I can't say that I know what it would be. Would this also tie into Benjen's reasoning for going to the wall as well? Sorry not to be more helpful.
Two discrepancies that I noticed. I thought that Mance was captured from a group of wilding raiders? Maybe I'm wrong, but I was thinking that it was Craster whose mom took him to the wall for having a crow dad. Also, you state that he met Dalla returning from Winterfell with Qhorin. I thought he met Dalla when he was returning after the feast for King Robert when he was already King beyond the wall? I could be wrong though.
If I see or think of anything else I'll let you know. Had never really thought things through from this angle before.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
The only daughter of Rickard Stark was a strong-willed tomboy with grey eyes and brown hair, skilled at horses, and practiced at rings. She had a wild streak that her family called the “wolf blood”. This independent young woman was distressed to learn that she was to be betrothed to Robert Baratheon. She expressed her concern to Ned that Robert would never keep to one bed. She was so desperate to avoid marriage that she sentenced herself to the Wall disguised as a boy.
A brother of the Nights Watch was noted as attending the Tourney of Harrenhal asking for men to take back to the Wall. He would have made the rounds of the different Houses collecting men. On his way back he stops at Winterfell. Lyanna slips in with the men and boys in her disguise when it was time for him to leave. She may or may not have had any help. Arya was alone when Yoren made her a boy, so maybe the secret was only between Lyanna and this black brother?
House Stark had a close relationship with the Nights Watch sending sons to the Wall to provide leadership, and to keep an eye on the management. Mance was a charismatic wildling who was adopted as a child by the Watch after they discovered him in a group of raiders that they had put to the sword. He later defects to return to the wildlings, and in time became their King Beyond the Wall, but not without some admitted visits to Winterfell.
The reason he provides for leaving the Nights Watch was a tale that included hunting and getting attacked by a shadowcat. He says a woods witch took care of his wounds and patched his cape with red fabric and thread, but he has also talked freely about disguising himself as a singer to gain entrance to Winterfell. It was because of those visits that Mance and Lyanna recognized each other.
Ygritte tells Jon the story of Bael the Bard and I think this is actually Jon’s story. He is the bastard o’Winterfell.
Ygritte: “The two we killed?” “No more than you are.”
Jon: “Me?” He frowned. “What do you mean?”
Ygritte: “You said you were the Bastard o’ Winterfell.”
Jon: “I am.”
Ygritte: “Who was your mother?”
Jon: “Some woman. Most of them are.” Someone had said that to him once. He did not remember who.
Ygritte: She smiled again, a flash of white teeth. “And she never sung you the song o’ the winter rose?”
Jon: “I never knew my mother. Or any such song.”
Ygritte: “Bael the Bard made it,” said Ygritte. “He was King-beyond-the-Wall a long time back. All the free folk know his songs, but might be you don’t sing them in the south.”
Jon: “Winterfell’s not in the south,” Jon objected.
Ygritte: “Yes it is. Everything below the Wall’s south to us.”
Jon: He had never thought of it that way. “I suppose it’s all in where you’re standing.”
Ygritte: “Aye,” Ygritte agreed. “It always is.”
Jon: “Tell me,” Jon urged her. It would be hours before Qhorin came up, and a story would help keep him awake. “I want to hear this tale of yours.”
Ygritte: “Might be you won’t like it much.”
Jon: “I’ll hear it all the same.”
Ygritte: “Brave black crow,” she mocked. “Well, long before he was king over the free folk, Bael was a great raider.”
Stonesnake gave a snort. “A murderer, robber, and raper, is what you mean.”
Ygritte: “That’s all in where you’re standing too,” Ygritte said. “The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael’s head, but never could take him, and the taste o’ failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o’ that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter’s night with harp in hand, naming himself Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means ‘deceiver’ in the Old Tongue, that the First Men spoke, and the giants still speak.”
“North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark’s own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he’d made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. ‘All I ask is a flower,’ Bael answered, ‘the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o’ Winterfell.’”
“Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o’ the winter roses be plucked for the singer’s payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon’s maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain.”
Jon: Jon had never heard this tale before. “Which Brandon was this supposed to be? Brandon the Builder lived in the Age of Heroes, thousands of years before Bael. There was Brandon the Burner and his father Brandon the Shipwright, but—”
Ygritte: “This was Brandon the Daughterless,” Ygritte said sharply. “Would you hear the tale, or no?”
Jon: He scowled. “Go on.”
Ygritte: “Lord Brandon had no other children. At his behest, the black crows flew forth from their castles in the hundreds, but nowhere could they find any sign o’ Bael or this maid. For most a year they searched, till the lord lost heart and took to his bed, and it seemed as though the line o’ Starks was at its end. But one night as he lay waiting to die, Lord Brandon heard a child’s cry. He followed the sound and found his daughter back in her bedchamber, asleep with a babe at her breast.”
Jon: “Bael had brought her back?”
Ygritte: “No. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle. The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says . . . though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what’s certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he’d plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is— you have Bael’s blood in you, same as me.”
Jon: “It never happened,” Jon said.
Ygritte: She shrugged. “Might be it did, might be it didn’t. It is a good song, though. My mother used to sing it to me. She was a woman too, Jon Snow. Like yours.” She rubbed her throat where his dirk had cut her. “The song ends when they find the babe, but there is a darker end to the story. Thirty years later, when Bael was King-beyond-the-Wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford . . . and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword.”
Jon: “So the son slew the father instead,” said Jon.
Ygritte: “Aye,” she said, “but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing. When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael’s head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o’ his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak.”
Jon: “Your Bael was a liar,” he told her, certain now.
Ygritte: “No,” Ygritte said, “but a bard’s truth is different than yours or mine. Anyway, you asked for the story, so I told it.” She turned away from him, closed her eyes, and seemed to sleep.
Qhorin Halfhand was Mance’s friend before and after he became King Beyond the Wall. I think Qhorin knew Jon was Mance’s son, but he carefully considered his words when speaking to Jon about Mance, because he didn’t want to be the one to tell him. Maybe he felt this was a revelation that should be provided by his father. Jon identifies with Mance is some respects, but Ned’s influence on him growing up developed his sense of duty.
Jon: “My lord,” he said, “you never asked me how it went. With the girl.”
Qhorin: “I am no lord, Jon Snow.” Qhorin slid the stone smoothly along the steel with his two-fingered hand.
Jon: “She told me Mance would take me, if I ran with her.”
Quorin: “She told you true.”
Jon: “She even claimed we were kin. She told me a story . . .”
Quorin: “. . . of Bael the Bard and the rose of Winterfell. So Stonesnake told me. It happens I know the song. Mance would sing it of old, when he came back from a ranging. He had a passion for wildling music. Aye, and for their women as well.”
Jon: “You knew him?”
Quorin: “We all knew him.” His voice was sad.
Jon: They were friends as well as brothers, Jon realized, and now they are sworn foes. “Why did he desert?”
Quorin: “For a wench, some say. For a crown, others would have it.” Qhorin tested the edge of his sword with the ball of his thumb. “He liked women, Mance did, and he was not a man whose knees bent easily, that’s true. But it was more than that. He loved the wild better than the Wall. It was in his blood. He was wildling born, taken as a child when some raiders were put to the sword. When he left the Shadow Tower he was only going home again.”
Jon: “Was he a good ranger?”
Quorin: “He was the best of us,” said the Halfhand, “and the worst as well. Only fools like Thoren Smallwood despise the wildlings. They are as brave as we are, Jon. As strong, as quick, as clever. But they have no discipline. They name themselves the free folk, and each one thinks himself as good as a king and wiser than a maester. Mance was the same. He never learned how to obey.”
Jon: “No more than me,” said Jon quietly.
When Mance and Lyanna cross paths and recognize each other, Lyanna begs him to keep her sexual identity a secret. A romance buds quickly between the two conspirators. Her identity as a boy was successful until a growing belly raised suspicion with some of the men. They capitalized on the situation while Mance was away on a ranging, backing her into a corner in a storage room in the Wall, which ultimately led to the rape, and she was severely injured during the struggle. On his return Mance learns that a group of his own brothers of the Watch raped and nearly killed a pregnant Lyanna. He takes her back to Winterfell where she gave birth to Jon. He stayed with her until Ned came home after the Rebellion, leaving her room only moments before Ned walks in. When he finally heads north again he found it hard to remain with the Nights Watch. He tries for a few years before defecting to live as a wildling.
Over the years Mance has made at least two documented return visits to Winterfell to see how his son was doing. On one visit he’s still a Crow as evidenced by the fact that he came with Qhorin Halfhand. Here is the first documented visit:
Mance: The king laughed. “Your Mance! Why not? I promised you a tale before, of how I knew you. Have you puzzled it out yet?”
Jon: Jon shook his head. “Did Rattleshirt send word ahead?”
Mance: “By wing? We have no trained ravens. No, I knew your face. I’ve seen it before. Twice.”
Jon: It made no sense at first, but as Jon turned it over in his mind, dawn broke. “When you were a brother of the Watch . . .”
Mance: “Very good! Yes, that was the first time. You were just a boy, and I was all in black, one of a dozen riding escort to old Lord Commander Qorgyle when he came down to see your father at Winterfell. I was walking the wall around the yard when I came on you and your brother Robb. It had snowed the night before, and the two of you had built a great mountain above the gate and were waiting for someone likely to pass underneath.”
Jon: “I remember,” said Jon with a startled laugh. A young black brother on the wallwalk, yes . . .
Mance: “You swore not to tell.”
Jon: And kept my vow. That one, at least.”
“We dumped the snow on Fat Tom. He was Father’s slowest guardsman.” Tom had chased them around the yard afterward, until all three were red as autumn apples. “But you said you saw me twice. When was the other time?”
Mance: “When King Robert came to Winterfell to make your father Hand,” the King-beyond-the-Wall said lightly.
The second visit was after Mance defected and disguised himself as a singer. He tells Jon it was because he wanted to see Robert, but the details of the story tell another tale…the tale of a father checking on the well-being of his son. The second documented visit:
Jon: Jon’s eyes widened in disbelief. “That can’t be so.”
Mance: “It was. When your father learned the king was coming, he sent word to his brother Benjen on the Wall, so he might come down for the feast. There is more commerce between the black brothers and the free folk than you know, and soon enough word came to my ears as well. It was too choice a chance to resist. Your uncle did not know me by sight, so I had no fear from that quarter, and I did not think your father was like to remember a young crow he’d met briefly years before. I wanted to see this Robert with my own eyes, king to king, and get the measure of your uncle Benjen as well. He was First Ranger by then, and the bane of all my people. So I saddled my fleetest horse, and rode.”
“
Jon: But,” Jon objected, “the Wall . . .”
Mance: “The Wall can stop an army, but not a man alone. I took a lute and a bag of silver, scaled the ice near Long Barrow, walked a few leagues south of the New Gift, and bought a horse. All in all I made much better time than Robert, who was traveling with a ponderous great wheelhouse to keep his queen in comfort. A day south of Winterfell I came up on him and fell in with his company. Freeriders and hedge knights are always attaching themselves to royal processions, in hopes of finding service with the king, and my lute gained me easy acceptance.” He laughed. “I know every bawdy song that’s ever been made, north or south of the Wall. So there you are. The night your father feasted Robert, I sat in the back of his hall on a bench with the other freeriders, listening to Orland of Oldtown play the high harp and sing of dead kings beneath the sea. I betook of your lord father’s meat and mead, had a look at Kingslayer and Imp . . . and made passing note of Lord Eddard’s children and the wolf pups that ran at their heels.”
Jon: “Bael the Bard,” said Jon, remembering the tale that Ygritte had told him in the Frostfangs, the night he’d almost killed her.
Mance: “Would that I were. I will not deny that Bael’s exploit inspired mine own . . . but I did not steal either of your sisters that I recall. Bael wrote his own songs, and lived them. I only sing the songs that better men have made. More mead?”
Jon: “No,” said Jon. “If you had been discovered . . . taken . . .”
Mance: “Your father would have had my head off.” The king gave a shrug. “Though once I had eaten at his board I was protected by guest right. The laws of hospitality are as old as the First Men, and sacred as a heart tree.”
No, Mance certainly did not steal one of Jon’s sister’s…he stole his mother.
Mance carried a lot of guilt for many years over not being able to protect Lyanna. It wasn’t until after he saw how happy Jon was when playing with Robb that his conscience lifted. He and Qhorin had just left Winterfell and were on their way back to the Wall when he met Dalla. He tells the story to Jon:
Mance: Mance took her by the hand and pulled her close. “My lady is blameless. I met her on my return from your father’s castle. The Halfhand was carved of old oak, but I am made of flesh, and I have a great fondness for the charms of women …
Later in the books, Mance is sent by Jon to fetch fake Arya, he takes it upon himself to go straight to Winterfell. While there he adopts a familiar disguise of a singer, and brings along a group of wildling spearwives to play the parts of washerwomen that came to work for the wedding. He takes the name Able which is an anagram for Bael. Mance has another ulterior motive for going to Winterfell other than saving fake Arya, and I believe it has something to do with Jon.
Mance couldn’t save Lyanna, but there is something that he can do for his son. There’s something that he knows, something that has been forgotten, and in order to pull it off he needs to gather his courage. Many people hum or sing when they’re scared as a distraction. Mance thinks of Lyanna then sings:
He was still waiting for his porridge when Ramsay swept into the hall with his Bastard’s Boys, shouting for music. Abel rubbed the sleep from his eyes, took up his lute, and launched into “The Dornishman’s Wife,” whilst one of his washerwomen beat time on her drum. The singer changed the words, though. Instead of tasting a Dornishman’s wife, he sang of tasting a northman’s daughter.
LS:DR
To summarize: Mance and Lyanna began their romance soon after Lyanna ran away to the Wall to avoid her marriage to Robert. Mance and Lyanna recognized each other regardless of her disguise as a boy due to his frequent visits to Winterfell. The two conspirators fell in love. Lyanna’s death was caused by being raped and nearly murdered like Danny Flint by a small group of brothers of the Nights Watch who noticed “the boy’s belly” was growing larger during the months when Mance was away on a ranging. Mance returns to find a mortally injured Lyanna and decides to take her back to Winterfell where she is found holding Jon after Ned’s return home after the Rebellion.
Post by whitewolfstark on Sept 28, 2015 4:47:45 GMT
While you argue on the possibility well, Melisandra, it's not exactly all that convincing--though kudos to being one of the first essays to suggest that Jon was always in Winterfell (though that fails to explain why Wylla was Jon Snow's wet nurse and why she would be sent to House Dayne then).
It's plausible. It's a decently argued case... but it just doesn't... fit right IMO. Too much speculation and not enough hard evidence, if I had to venture a guess.
While you argue on the possibility well, Wolfmaid, it's not exactly all that convincing--though kudos to being one of the first essays to suggest that Jon was always in Winterfell (though that fails to explain why Wylla was Jon Snow's wet nurse and why she would be sent to House Dayne then).
It's plausible. It's a decently argued case... but it just doesn't... fit right IMO. Too much speculation and not enough hard evidence, if I had to venture a guess.
This is an essay from Feather Crystal aka Melissandre.I'm just posting it on her behalf so she is better able to answer questions on it.My essay is Robert by the way.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
Nice job, Melissandre. I like your straightforward layout! My only question is, do you see Mance as someone from a yet-unknown magical background? (Like, he ia actually the baby swapped Aegon, etc?) Or do you see the Stark-blood as the only important ingredient in Jon?
I like the creativity of this story Feather,but i have to agree with Whitewolf on this.It requires to much speculation to fill in the gaps from how they met,to her ending up at the wall to them even having known each other and having a relationship.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
To summarize: Mance and Lyanna began their romance soon after Lyanna ran away to the Wall to avoid her marriage to Robert. Mance and Lyanna recognized each other regardless of her disguise as a boy due to his frequent visits to Winterfell. The two conspirators fell in love. Lyanna’s death was caused by being raped and nearly murdered like Danny Flint by a small group of brothers of the Nights Watch who noticed “the boy’s belly” was growing larger during the months when Mance was away on a ranging. Mance returns to find a mortally injured Lyanna and decides to take her back to Winterfell where she is found holding Jon after Ned’s return home after the Rebellion.
The symbolism of Bael is the strongest part of the Mance idea, imo.
But the idea of Lyanna's running away to the Wall--can't find anything on that. The "Mance meets Lya" part has lees (at present) in the text than Rhaegar and Lya--and they are barely on page together. Makes it hard to tie it together.
Though Mance's interest in Jon is still curious--could just be the Stark factor. Could be something else. . .
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
This has been an interesting read. I have often wondered by so many people think that Mance is Rhaegar but there are certain parallels. What if Mance is actually the son of Bloodraven? Not sure the timeline fits but all the parallels would make a lot more sense. Then Mance and Lyanna would have fulfilled the Pact of Ice and Fire aka Jon the Bastard of Winterfell.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
I wrote this essay prior to the Arsenal of Echoes thread, so my Mance theory has changed in my head somewhat. I currently believe Lyanna'a whereabouts followed Arya's starting with Harrenhal. Arya was brought to Harrenhal by Ser Gregor's men, while Lyanna was at Harrenhal for a tourney. Arya helped some Northmen escape Harrenhal's cells, then left later with Hotpie and Gendry killing a guard on the way out. Lyanna had her own confrontation at Harrenhal, but it was to chase off some squires that were picking on Howland. Ser Gregor and Tywin never knew that they had Arya, so is the inversion that Tywin's men knew they had Lyanna and that's why Tywin left Kings Landing and his position as Hand? He had wolf! I'm thinking that Lyanna escaped Tywin's men somehow, and if we're true to the echo she should have left with Robert Baratheon if he is the inversion of Gendry. Wouldn't it be awful if he knew what had happened to her? But, maybe instead of Robert, Lyanna had two other helpers? No one else comes to mind, but this is a work in progress!
First up--no way around it, Arya echoes Lyanna.
And, as we've all discussed elsewhere, Arya directly "echoes" Lyanna in her defense of Mycah--not many leagues from Harrenhal.
I'm liking the idea of Lyanna's escaping Tywin's men from her original capture. It would echo what happens with Tyrion and Cat in the Inn (not many leagues from Harrenhal). She takes him on dubious authority--citing her father (she didn't have his blessing on this--he didn't know). To take a Lannister--given Cat's state of mind, any Lannister would do. Then they are attacked by the clansmen--and things change. Tyron escapes with help from a good fighter, not a true knight.
So, I could (hypothetically) see Tywin's taking Lyanna ("we have a wolf!") and her escaping--with help from others.
One problem with Robert's being involved--he talks about "Rhaegar won" and he seems to like Tywin more than really makes sense. If he knew about Tywin's taking her. . . why would he trust Tywin?
The next "echo" that comes to mind is Gendry staying at the Inn at the Crossroads and Arya continuing towards Riverrun. Gendry's smithing hammer echoes Robert's hammer caving in Rhaegar's chest at the Trident. We also have Arya being intercepted by the Hound, Sandor Clegane with his hope for a ransom. Sandor was a Kingsguard, but he refused to be a knight. He had a reputation for being kind of a low life, but over time we recognize his honorable actions. Could Lyanna have been intercepted by someone that was known throughout the realm as the very best knight and Kingsguard Ser Arthur Dayne? The inversion would be that Lyanna would've assumed that she was safe, but perhaps Arthur ransomed her rather than help her get home? Of course Arya's wolf Nymeria killed the Bloody Mummers sent to recapture her and her friends only to come upon the Brotherhood Without Banners. Maybe Lyanna escaped Tywin's men, only to be intercepted by some brothers of the Kingsguard? Then the ransom by Arthur? Just spitballing here!
Or, not ransom by Arthur (and perhaps others), but taking her into custody for the purposes of the king they are sworn to? Beric doesn't want money per se--he wants funds for the cause. That's why he will ransom Arya to her family vs. just giving her. The Hound--well, he wants money to survive. But, can't see how that would apply as much to Artur or others.
And I like your Gentry echo a lot. .. need to let it percolate in my head a bit.
Arya was helped by Yoren when she left Kings Landing at the beginning of her journey, so was Lyanna "helped" at the end of her journey also by a man of the Nights Watch? This is where I would change the connection to Mance. Maybe he saved her from whomever Arthur ransomed her to? Mance would have been the man of the Nights Watch that succeeded in ushering Lyanna home to Winterfell, hiding in the crypts like the Bael the Bard story.
So, would this assume that the "room that smelled of blood and roses" was in Winterfell? If so, why this:
QUOTE: "I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers." Game, Eddard I
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
