A quick return to the original topic (lol); look what I stumbled upon in ACOK:
The Walders were mounting up, he saw. They’d brought fine armor up from the Twins, shining silver plate with enameled blue chasings. Big Walder’s crest was shaped like a castle, while Little Walder favored streamers of blue and grey silk. Their shields and surcoats also set them apart from each other. Little Walder quartered the twin towers of Frey with the brindled boar of his grandmother’s House and the plowman of his mother’s: Crakehall and Darry, respectively. Big Walder’s quarterings were the tree-and-ravens of House Blackwood and the twining snakes of the Paeges. They must be hungry for honor, Bran thought as he watched them take up their lances. A Stark needs only the direwolf.
So there are Freys with Blackwood blood as well. This kind of makes me think the Blackwood in Targs and Starks may not be unusual, and that all of these families interbreed more than we think. We know that the Brackens (incl. lady Barbrey, now lady Dustin) have a lot of Blackwood blood as well, from multiple attempts at making peace by marriage- so every family with Bracken blood also has Blackwood blood. IIRC, wasn't Roose Bolton married to a Bracken woman as well (Domeric's mother)? I guess what I'm trying to say is that having Blackwood blood does not set the Starks or Targaryens apart from other noble Houses in Westeros. On the contrary, it may be hard to find a House without any Blackwoods in their family tree.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
So there are Freys with Blackwood blood as well. This kind of makes me think the Blackwood in Targs and Starks may not be unusual, and that all of these families interbreed more than we think. We know that the Brackens (incl. lady Barbrey, now lady Dustin) have a lot of Blackwood blood as well, from multiple attempts at making peace by marriage- so every family with Bracken blood also has Blackwood blood. IIRC, wasn't Roose Bolton married to a Bracken woman as well (Domeric's mother)? I guess what I'm trying to say is that having Blackwood blood does not set the Starks or Targaryens apart from other noble Houses in Westeros. On the contrary, it may be hard to find a House without any Blackwoods in their family tree.
Sure, there were lots of marriages between House Blackwood and other Houses. What makes those two marriages (to Willam Stark and Aegon Targaryen) so peculiar is that both Stark and Targaryen are much more powerful Houses, compared to House Blackwood, and geographically distant. These marriages would just be unlikely under normal circumstances (i.e. if a half-Blackwood wasn't ruling the kingdoms), especially almost simultaneously. And given what we know about Bloodraven, we might assume he didn't orchestrate those marriages solely to use an opportunity to promote his maternal family. Also, maybe for someone special to be born of a Blackwood, the spouse must come from some 'special' bloodline as well, like Stark or Targaryen, and unlike common families like Bracken or Frey. And sure, there are tiny fractions of Blackwood blood in many Houses, but, supposedly, a tiny fraction is simply not enough. Or maybe Lame Lothar Frey or Big Walder Frey are also some kind of 'special' because of Alyssa Blackwood, their mother and grandmother, respectively, we just might not know it yet. Both characters are pretty noticeable, after all.
BTW, Lady Barbrey Dustin comes from the northern House Ryswell, not House Bracken. And Roose Bolton's first wife was her sister, Bethany Ryswell.
Oh yeah, I completely forgot about Marwyn! This idea of Illyrio-Doran collaboration is so new to me I haven't really thought it through yet Also Mirri Maz Duur met Marwyn at some point, which might be very important to this theory.
Yes, nice catch! Funny how a blood mage, much like those summoned to KL to try to hatch dragons, just happened to be around right as Dany was getting ready to hatch some. That same witch had just made some great king's blood available for the ritual as well... and for all we know, she was singing the hatching song when she burned.
I agree. I only meant that when Varys and Illyrio had their "'Delay', you say, 'Make haste', I reply", discussion, they evidently decided to sacrifice Dany, apparently believing Drogo cared about her enough to desire vengeance, even if it meant crossing the poisoned water. It just doesn't seem likely that they actually counted on the failure of that assassination attempt. They are powerful, but not almighty, and they are aware of that.
You're right, and I am officially dropping that part of my argument. They didn't plan the assassination attempt. AT the market, Jorah receives a letter from Illyrio warning him about Robert's new order to have her killed. That's how he knows to be suspicious of the wine merchant. No conspiracy needed.
However important that part of the plan had or had not been, it had failed irreparably. Revealing this would pose no danger to the success of the overall plan at that point.
Hmm yes, it had failed (though not irreparably, as we now know). Still, Illyrio seems to be downplaying his involvement in setting up the Dany/Drogo marriage in general, at one point even suggesting he considered keeping her for himself. Like it's no big deal whether she marries Drogo or not... but then he slips up with his "years of planning" comment. He also does not mention, IIRC, that he was the one to give her the eggs, or that he sent Jorah with her.
I can't remember if he mentions having sent her Barristan? Not sure if Voice is around, but he would call it going down the rabbit hole to suggest that Varys could have been involved in Barristan's dismissal (as simple as the right mention to Joffrey) and have then facilitated having the last (loyal) surviving Targaryen KG end up in Dany's service...
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
Also, regarding the idea of Doran-Illyrio collaboration. There's an issue we must address. Evidently, Doran never knew about (f)Aegon, who is beyond any doubt the central piece of Illyrio and Varys' game. When (f)Aegon conquered a good part of the Stormlands and sent a letter to Sunspear, Doran is confused, he has no idea who (f)Aegon is and where he came from. Most importantly, Illyrio and Doran made conflicting plans regarding Daenerys. So, even if they were working together at some point, their paths have since diverged. Why? Especially if we assume Doran is still in contact with Varys ('a friend in the capital').
Yes, this will have to be explained or it will kill the theory. The best I can come up with is that Oberyn didn't include Doran in all of his plans. They were allied on the surface, but he had additional irons in the fire that only he (and possibly his daughters?) were aware of. The fact that Doran apparently doesn't know what Sarella is doing in the Citadel supports this idea. The show- which I know is not canon, but nevertheless should at least be considered as potential evidence- also strongly suggests that the sand snakes have their own agenda that Doran is not aware of. I'm not suggesting they will kill him for real, but that there is more going on than meets the eye.
If Varys is indeed his friend in the capital, he clearly isn't sharing everything with Doran. Unless... Hmm. We don't know for sure that Doran is surprised by Aegon's appearance in westeros. He certainly acts this way, sure. But he has no reason to trust Arianne, who seems selfish and easily fooled by good-looking men, and has no experience with diplomacy or scheming. In addition, it was not the plan for Aegon to arrive so soon, and without Dany and Quentin. Varys himself probably only recently learned of the change in plans, so Doran may be about to find out.
Good catch! And more than a bit suspicious--it's too convenient to just be serendipity.
Plus, that quote with a Jeyne, and a girl with green hair standing in for another, more valuable players. . . Jeyne Poole stood in for Arya. And Wylla Manderly's green hair and her intense Stark loyalty. . . seems like this could be a marker posting to what might have happened with Lyanna and Wylla.
But that's for another thread, probably.
I would love to hear about this! We're already way off topic anyway, lol, which seems to happen to many threads (but IMO that's fine- we can discuss whatever we like!). Wylla Manderly does remind me a LOT of Lyanna/Arya....Do share
I never liked Jorah. He is a spy, a tool, and a creep. Also calling it now Missandei is a Faceless Women.
Agreed on Jorah. And there is definitely something off about Missandei... I can't quite decide if she is the faceless woman, or if Arya is going to take her face and infiltrate DAny's camp while they are in Braavos waiting on their fleet to be built.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
Also, maybe for someone special to be born of a Blackwood, the spouse must come from some 'special' bloodline as well, like Stark or Targaryen, and unlike common families like Bracken or Frey. And sure, there are tiny fractions of Blackwood blood in many Houses, but, supposedly, a tiny fraction is simply not enough. Or maybe Lame Lothar Frey or Big Walder Frey are also some kind of 'special' because of Alyssa Blackwood, their mother and grandmother, respectively, we just might not know it yet. Both characters are pretty noticeable, after all.
Yup, all possible. The current Starks still don't have a lot of Blackwood in them, unless the Tullys have it too- in which case, I am totally on board with BR's machinations. He certainly seems to do things for a reason, and mixing Blackwood blood into houses of Ice and Fire is certainly interesting...
I wonder if he's been watching Dany all her life too, like Bran? Since she has a lot more Blackwood than any of the Starks, I would think that if he is waiting on a chosen descendant of his family, he should be keeping an eye on the Targs especially...
BTW, Lady Barbrey Dustin comes from the northern House Ryswell, not House Bracken. And Roose Bolton's first wife was her sister, Bethany Ryswell
You're right. Wow, you'd think as many times as I've read these books that I could keep the facts straight but NOPE, clearly not the case.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”