"Anticlimax is, of course, the warp and way of things..." etc.
I do like the idea of echoes in the storytelling of these books, though. That said, the echoes that catch my eye - or the echoes I imagine that I see - may come from other directions. For example... the first thing about Lady Dyanna's quote that I latched onto was the capitalization of Thorne's nickname for Jon: The Bastard. And I've long been intrigued by the idea that when all is said and done, and the tales of this story fade into Westerosi legend, Jon Snow and Ramsay Snow will end up being conflated into a single figure. In other words... Jon Snow, hero though he may be, will get blamed for all the evils perpetuated by Lord Ramsay. That monster, born of lust and betrayal, who hunted maids through the forest and tortured them before the kill... "was ever snow so black?"
I've also got this (vague) theory that many of the Targaryen eccentricities, and historically daft behaviors... can be chalked up to misguided attempts at fulfilling the prophecy of the "Prince that was Promised." Conveniently, Martin has refused to share this prophecy in full... but my guess is that once he does, we'll look back at the history of House Targaryen with a new eye. I think that prophecy's simply (and literally) driven them mad, one generation at a time. So in that sense, much of Targaryen family history may end up looking like distorted "echoes" of prophecy-misunderstood.
"Anticlimax is, of course, the warp and way of things..." etc.
I do like the idea of echoes in the storytelling of these books, though. That said, the echoes that catch my eye - or the echoes I imagine that I see - may come from other directions. For example... the first thing about Lady Dyanna's quote that I latched onto was the capitalization of Thorne's nickname for Jon: The Bastard. And I've long been intrigued by the idea that when all is said and done, and the tales of this story fade into Westerosi legend, Jon Snow and Ramsay Snow will end up being conflated into a single figure. In other words... Jon Snow, hero though he may be, will get blamed for all the evils perpetuated by Lord Ramsay. That monster, born of lust and betrayal, who hunted maids through the forest and tortured them before the kill... "was ever snow so black?"
I've also got this (vague) theory that many of the Targaryen eccentricities, and historically daft behaviors... can be chalked up to misguided attempts at fulfilling the prophecy of the "Prince that was Promised." Conveniently, Martin has refused to share this prophecy in full... but my guess is that once he does, we'll look back at the history of House Targaryen with a new eye. I think that prophecy's simply (and literally) driven them mad, one generation at a time. So in that sense, much of Targaryen family history may end up looking like distorted "echoes" of prophecy-misunderstood.
Hence my anticlimactic word choice
Good stuff here Snowy, and I know BC would agree with the last sentiment in particular. Will comment more when not walking around the museum.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Is this Tyrion's being singled out for his ties to his family? Or is this confirmation that Martin does intend to make Tyrion a danger, an enemy? Summer growls first. Not Grey Wind, the leader. Not Shaggy, the wild wolf. Summer--Bran's. Like Lady growls at Ilyn Payne--so, Tyrion will become an enemy?
I'm not entirely sure at this point if Tyrion is being singled out at this point for anything that has anything to do with Tyrion. It could be a leftover from the original design of the series. Or maybe Summer does sense his relationship to those that have injured Bran. There also seems to be some longstanding enmity between Starks and Lannisters. What interests me this most at this point are the parallels between this, the Sansa/Arya and NW fighting echoes. How do Tyrion, Sam and Joffrey relate to one another?
A reverse echo again? Would a real prince have helped Lyanna? And accepted her help (unlike Joffrey)? Or a knight? Is this a trace of what happened when Lyanna helped Howland? Arya saves Mycah and Sansa tries to bind wounds?
Maybe. But when you look at it, Joffrey ends up being the one under attack. He winds up with a head wound, like Sam and a wolf attacking his arm, like Tyrion.
No way Robert doesn't know what the truth is. A weak king--so was Aerys. But I'm thinking Robert and Cersei combined might make Aerys.
Who might have "informed" on Lyanna? The idiots she defended Howland from, probably. Is Renly the Arthur, knowing the truth? Renly Whent?
Yep, I'd assume tower steps might be a spiral. Not sure what to make about Aerys being Cersei yet not the ruler but still having Robert there. I guess you could combine them. Or in this instance could he represent Rhaegar? The one who should be the true ruler, yet is for whatever reason unable to react as he desires. Taking into account the NW parallel echo, I'm inclined to believe that it was Varys informing on Lyanna.
Oh man. This is a fantastic catch! Seriously, I think the ALJ essay needs to be updated with this.
Thanks! I am making a lot of assumptions, though. The Arthur and Lyanna parallels have very little support within the chapter. It's mostly trying to fill in the blanks. The Whent, Hightower and Varys parallels are the only ones pretty much spelled out.
I do like the idea of echoes in the storytelling of these books, though. That said, the echoes that catch my eye - or the echoes I imagine that I see - may come from other directions. For example... the first thing about Lady Dyanna's quote that I latched onto was the capitalization of Thorne's nickname for Jon: The Bastard.
Funny you should point that out. That's one of the funny things I've noticed comparing a few of the echoes. There's always some reference to a bastard involved. It's Jon in this one. In the one with Sansa and Arya, earlier in the chapter Sansa thinks about asking her mother if Arya is a bastard. I would say Tyrion is playing the bastard role in the one with the wolves. Hence the all dwarves are bastards speech.
long been intrigued by the idea that when all is said and done, and the tales of this story fade into Westerosi legend, Jon Snow and Ramsay Snow will end up being conflated into a single figure. In other words... Jon Snow, hero though he may be, will get blamed for all the evils perpetuated by Lord Ramsay. That monster, born of lust and betrayal, who hunted maids through the forest and tortured them before the kill... "was ever snow so black?"
Interesting thoughts. I could see that happening. I'm going to keep my fingers crossed that it doesn't though.
I've also got this (vague) theory that many of the Targaryen eccentricities, and historically daft behaviors... can be chalked up to misguided attempts at fulfilling the prophecy of the "Prince that was Promised." Conveniently, Martin has refused to share this prophecy in full... but my guess is that once he does, we'll look back at the history of House Targaryen with a new eye. I think that prophecy's simply (and literally) driven them mad, one generation at a time. So in that sense, much of Targaryen family history may end up looking like distorted "echoes" of prophecy-misunderstood.
This makes a lot of sense to me. It would go a long way in explaining quite a few things. Great idea!
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
This is going against my above interpretation, but I found an interesting description of Sam later on in the same chapter. What's odd about it is that to me it seems to call Rhaegar to mind.
Whatever pride his lord father might have felt at Samwell’s birth vanished as the boy grew up plump, soft, and awkward. Sam loved to listen to music and make his own songs, to wear soft velvets, to play in the castle kitchen beside the cooks, drinking in the rich smells as he snitched lemon cakes and blueberry tarts. His passions were books and kittens and dancing, clumsy as he was. But he grew ill at the sight of blood, and wept to see even a chicken slaughtered.
Then again, the lemon cakes and some of the other things do call Sansa to mind as well.
Last Edit: Nov 14, 2015 6:51:29 GMT by Lady Dyanna
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
the first thing about Lady Dyanna's quote that I latched onto was the capitalization of Thorne's nickname for Jon: The Bastard. And I've long been intrigued by the idea that when all is said and done, and the tales of this story fade into Westerosi legend, Jon Snow and Ramsay Snow will end up being conflated into a single figure. In other words... Jon Snow, hero though he may be, will get blamed for all the evils perpetuated by Lord Ramsay.
Mayhaps. I could see it. Ramsay may vanish into Reek III when justice comes knocking...again. Jon would be the perfect scapegoat. The Bastard Lord of Winterfell certainly seems to apply to Jon, but only accurately describes Ramsay.
But we know the truth to be far less absolute. Monsters can be trueborn. Heroes can be born of lust. Understand your point of course, but this leads to my own.
"Ser Waymar Royce was the youngest son of an ancient house with too many heirs."
Waymar was castle-forged, trueborn scion from wedlock, yet killed by an Other.
I have a feeling The Bastard Blade will prove more worthy.
I've also got this (vague) theory that many of the Targaryen eccentricities, and historically daft behaviors... can be chalked up to misguided attempts at fulfilling the prophecy of the "Prince that was Promised." Conveniently, Martin has refused to share this prophecy in full... but my guess is that once he does, we'll look back at the history of House Targaryen with a new eye. I think that prophecy's simply (and literally) driven them mad, one generation at a time. So in that sense, much of Targaryen family history may end up looking like distorted "echoes" of prophecy-misunderstood.
Only historically daft?
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I found this quote particularly relevant in comparing Sam to Joffrey.
He could think here, and he found himself thinking of Samwell Tarly … and, oddly, of Tyrion Lannister. He wondered what Tyrion would have made of the fat boy. Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, the dwarf had told him, grinning. The world was full of cravens who pretended to be heroes; it took a queer sort of courage to admit to cowardice as Samwell Tarly had.
Both are cowardly. Sam admits it while Joffrey covers it by bullying others.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Did three Kingsguard defend Arthur's lady love, Lyanna, from an attack ordered by Varys???
Are you thinking that Varys sent Ned and the gang after the three?
That's certainly a possibility. Honestly, my mind was going more towards the original disappearance of Lyanna, but everything is so garbled it's really hard to tell.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Just wanted to leave a comment before it leaves my mind. The Inn at the Crossroads is truly in the middle of everything. So far it appears to be where the King's party was staying the night before the Arya and Joffrey conflict and it's where Tyrion is taken captive. Plus multiple mentions that I haven't gotten to yet. Awfully close to Harrenhall. So of course that brings us to the obvious question, was this the starting point leading to Lyanna's disappearance???
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Just wanted to leave a comment before it leaves my mind. The Inn at the Crossroads is truly in the middle of everything. So far it appears to be where the King's party was staying the night before the Arya and Joffrey conflict and it's where Tyrion is taken captive. Plus multiple mentions that I haven't gotten to yet. Awfully close to Harrenhall. So of course that brings us to the obvious question, was this the starting point leading to Lyanna's disappearance???
I'm way behind and don't have time to catch up at the moment, but the Inn: yes, very close to Harrenhal AND north of Harrenhal. Very likely would be on the route home to Winterfell.
Second: the Inn itself. Has been there for a few hundred years--but an inn has stood there pretty much forever. Brienne notes the fine white stone of the turrets and chimneys--AND it's surrounded by a broken wall of broken white stones.
The way old buildings are torn down and new ones built from the ruins?
Throw in other white stones: Palestine sword; the white stone towers of the Eyrie (Sansa's balcony, mentioned in the same book as Brine's notice of the Inn, is made of carved white stone); Storm's End is built on a chalky white cliff (less of a connection); and White Harbor--surrounded by a white wall. the Castle Stair is a wide white stone walkway up to the castle.
Seems like the Inn at the crossroads is not only tied to the echoes of Lyanna, but to the ancient world of the novels per se. Right at the crossroads. . .
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Something from the Mystery Knight I just read that resonates with ASOIAF
Aye, that may well be ,” Ser Kyle said, “but many would welcome the return of Bittersteel. Bloodraven is the root of all our woes, the white worm gnawing at the heart of the realm
Bloodraven who now sits in the roots of the weirwoods (heartrees!) is compared to a worm gnawing at Westeros.
I noticed that quote when I was reading that as well. Made me think of the Dragon that lives at the base of Yggdrasl and eats away at its roots.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
I'm way behind and don't have time to catch up at the moment, but the Inn: yes, very close to Harrenhal AND north of Harrenhal. Very likely would be on the route home to Winterfell.
Or on the way back for Brandon and Catelyn's wedding at Riverrun.
Throw in other white stones: Palestine sword; the white stone towers of the Eyrie (Sansa's balcony, mentioned in the same book as Brine's notice of the Inn, is made of carved white stone); Storm's End is built on a chalky white cliff (less of a connection); and White Harbor--surrounded by a white wall. the Castle Stair is a wide white stone walkway up to the castle.
Don't forget Whitewalls from "The Mystery Knight." The stone could very well have been repurposed for the Inn after Bloodraven tore down the castle. Lord Butterwell's son in law was a Heddle. At least before Dunk killed him.
Seems like the Inn at the crossroads is not only tied to the echoes of Lyanna, but to the ancient world of the novels per se. Right at the crossroads. . .
::i agree::
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Or on the way back for Brandon and Catelyn's wedding at Riverrun.
A much more reasonable assumption.
Nov 15, 2015 21:54:54 GMT -7 Lady Dyanna said: Don't forget Whitewalls from "The Mystery Knight." The stone could very well have been repurposed for the Inn after Bloodraven tore down the castle. Lord Butterwell's son in law was a Heddle. At least before Dunk killed him.
Okay--so apparently I really need to read these things.
Quote: They seated the hedge knights well below the salt, closer to the doors than to the dais. Whitewalls was almost new as castles went, having been raised a mere forty years ago by the grandsire of its present lord. The smallfolk hereabouts called it the Milk house, for its walls and keeps and towers were made of finely dressed white stone, quarried in the Vale and brought over the mountains at great expense. Inside were floors and pillars of milky white marble veined with gold; the rafters overhead were carved from the bone-pale trunks of weirwoods. Dunk could not begin to imagine what all of that had cost. The Mystery Knight
So--echo of the Eyrie's High Hall? The marble is veined with gold instead of blue--but still. A lot's the same.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Just wanted to leave a comment before it leaves my mind. The Inn at the Crossroads is truly in the middle of everything. So far it appears to be where the King's party was staying the night before the Arya and Joffrey conflict and it's where Tyrion is taken captive. Plus multiple mentions that I haven't gotten to yet. Awfully close to Harrenhall. So of course that brings us to the obvious question, was this the starting point leading to Lyanna's disappearance???
This is more of a note to myself than anything, but I suspect that there are echoes that I'm missing in both Tyrion's abduction from the Inn and in the attack of the mountain clans. Was Lyanna taken from the Inn by the Lannisters to await judgment in Kings Landing, but not really, with Rhaegar (Marillion) in tow in disguise, in order for them to later be rescued by the Kingsguard?
There's a mention of the Red Stallion.
“The red stallion was ever a welcome sight in Riverrun,” she said to the trio by the fire. “My father counts Jonos Bracken among his oldest and most loyal bannermen.”
Then
Tyrion Lannister sniggered . That was when Catelyn knew he was hers. “This man came a guest into my house, and there conspired to murder my son, a boy of seven,” she proclaimed to the room at large, pointing. Ser Rodrik moved to her side, his sword in hand. “In the name of King Robert and the good lords you serve, I call upon you to seize him and help me return him to Winterfell to await the king’s justice.”
Last Edit: Nov 17, 2015 4:20:59 GMT by Lady Dyanna
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?