It all started with @prettypig's inverse parallel of what occurs at the TOJ and the scene in Dany's tent. Then kingmonkey brought up a variety of other related echoes in his W thread. Before I knew it, I was noticing echoes everywhere! And not just in relation to these two events, at least I don't think so. The purpose of this thread is to be a work in progress. It's meant to compile the sections of text that seem to be an echo, for lack of a better term, of possible events that might have occurred prior to the start of the series or possibly might continue occurring in an ongoing basis as a series of ripples. The hope is that once we have compiled as many as possible, we can compare/contrast the passages to help give us insight into some of the mysteries of the series.
Please feel free to add any sections of text that you think might fit, along with a quick description of what you are seeing for those of us who can be a bit slow on the intake at times.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
The battle of the Trident is an echo of Brandon's duel with Littlefinger - I'm honestly not even sure which of these two images Dany is seeing in the HotU.
I already covered the echo of Ned's time in KL with Cregan's experience "the hour of the wolf".
The entirety of Aerys' rule/relationships is a mirror of Aegon IV. I've been working on that one behind the scenes, spreadsheeting it in Excel. It's nearly identical, rather scary.
Okay: a few more to add to what @prettypig has done, and to collect some of the stuff we've all brought up in one place (so, apologies for shamelessly listing others' ideas--NOT claiming they are my own).
Killing of Lady as potential echo of the deaths of Brandon and Rickard--could the fact that both Arya and Sansa are stuck in it be a problem? Arya's the one who "spoke up" (like Brandon) but Rickard got burned while Brandon strangled himself--like Sansa's wolf is killed and Nymeria's sent away?
All the echoes of Bael the Bard: Lyanna's "stealing." Sansa as literal stolen bride being sound to by creepy Marillion. And the obvious echoes of Robert's Rebellion with Robb's Rebellion: both based on the unjust killing of the Stark patriarch and the stealing of Stark maidens.
Littlfinger in the Eyrie godswood with Sansa--a "trusted" figure who has played her false--a possible echo of Lyanna?
Lyanna's disappearance as echo of Arya's running after Nymeria attacks Joff?
Dontos: the failed knight from an extinct house pretending to save Sansa for honor as potential echo of Lyanna's being helped by a true knight from a great house actually helping for honor?
Both Jon's and Stannis' echoes of the Night's King.
Most of these are standard echoes--but if we're building an arsenal, the standards are needed.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Thanks all! It's an idea that seems to be popping up everywhere so why not bring it all together? It was literally the least I could do to open up the thread. Thanks SlyWren for adding some of the echoes we've been talking about. I didn't have time to look up quotes last night, but I'm guessing that we don't necessarily need them.
One more parallel scene that I have noticed is the fight between the ww and Ser Waymar in the prologue as compared to the fight between bloodriders at Dany and Drogo's wedding.
I'm going to try to copy/paste the quotes from the prologue thread.
I was doing a bit of rereading and it struck me that this scene from the prologue:
The pale sword came shivering through the air. Ser Waymar met it with steel. When the blades met, there was no ring of metal on metal; only a high, thin sound at the edge of hearing, like an animal screaming in pain. Royce checked a second blow, and a third, then fell back a step. Another flurry of blows, and he fell back again. Behind him, to right, to left, all around him, the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood. Yet they made no move to interfere. Again and again the swords met, until Will wanted to cover his ears against the strange anguished keening of their clash. Ser Waymar was panting from the effort now, his breath steaming in the moonlight. His blade was white with frost; the Other’s danced with pale blue light. Then Royce’s parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow. Ser Waymar’s fingers brushed his side. His moleskin glove came away soaked with red. The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking. Ser Waymar Royce found his fury. “For Robert!”he shouted, and he came up snarling, lifting the frost-covered longsword with both hands and swinging it around in a flat sidearm slash with all his weight behind it. The Other’s parry was almost lazy.
Actually shares several parallels with the fight scene at Dany's wedding:
Then two men seized the same woman. She heard a shout, saw a shove, and in the blink of an eye the arakhs were out, long razor-sharp blades, half sword and half scythe. A dance of death began as the warriors circled and slashed, leaping toward each other, whirling the blades around their heads, shrieking insults at each clash. No one made a move to interfere. It ended as quickly as it began. The arakhs shivered together faster than Dany could follow, one man missed a step, the other swung his blade in a flat arc. Steel bit into flesh just above the Dothraki’s waist, and opened him from backbone to belly button, spilling his entrails into the dust. As the loser died, the winner took hold of the nearest woman—not even the one they had been quarreling over—and had her there and then. Slaves carried off the body, and the dancing resumed.
Not to mention that there were a dozen men killed throughout the wedding. Would a dozen ww be enough to surround you?
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Many Needle/Sword/Pointy End echoes come to my mind.
The mother direwolf's foot of shattered antler ~ The Last Hero's shattered blade ~ Waymar's shattered blade ~ the fracturing of Ice ~ Smiling Knight's blade being chipped away by Dawn's.
Dawn pale as milkglass and alive with light ~ The ghost light that plays about the blades of Others ~ Asshai'i Blades of Ghost Grass that glow with the souls of the dead ~ The Palestone Sword tower.
Oathkeeper ~ Ned Stark, a man who kept his promises. Widow's Wail ~ Catelyn Stark, a widow who wailed. (I could also see these names applying to Arthur and Lyanna, but that's another tale.)
Sorry, I know these are more symbolic parallels than echoes of parallel scenes/events.
One event that seems to repeat itself with a great deal of regularity is the journey of a Stark into frozen dead lands. The Last Hero did it, Ben did it, Jon did it, Bran did it. We've yet to hear back from Ben (and the identity of the Last Hero is certainly unclear), but for the other three, it proved to be a process that altered their perspective a great deal.
Tangentially, I ask you, what is The Wall if not a chunk of frozen, dead land? And yet, from that chunk of ice, it seems a female Stark will bloom (or already has). I think a female Stark could soon join the list above.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Not sure why exactly but the following quote from The Sworn Sword has an echo feel as well.
“Ser Eustace chose the black dragon over the red, in hopes that a Blackfyre king might restore the lands and castles that the Osgreys had lost under the Targaryens,” Lady Rohanne said. “Chiefly he wanted Coldmoat. His sons paid for his treason with their life’s blood. When he brought their bones home and delivered his daughter to the king’s men for a hostage, his wife threw herself from the top of Standfast tower. Did Ser Eustace tell you that?” Her smile was sad. “No, I did not think so.”
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Thanks all! It's an idea that seems to be popping up everywhere so why not bring it all together? It was literally the least I could do to open up the thread. Thanks SlyWren for adding some of the echoes we've been talking about. I didn't have time to look up quotes last night, but I'm guessing that we don't necessarily need them.
One more parallel scene that I have noticed is the fight between the ww and Ser Waymar in the prologue as compared to the fight between bloodriders at Dany and Drogo's wedding.
I'm going to try to copy/paste the quotes from the prologue thread.
I was doing a bit of rereading and it struck me that this scene from the prologue:
The pale sword came shivering through the air. Ser Waymar met it with steel. When the blades met, there was no ring of metal on metal; only a high, thin sound at the edge of hearing, like an animal screaming in pain. Royce checked a second blow, and a third, then fell back a step. Another flurry of blows, and he fell back again. Behind him, to right, to left, all around him, the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood. Yet they made no move to interfere. Again and again the swords met, until Will wanted to cover his ears against the strange anguished keening of their clash. Ser Waymar was panting from the effort now, his breath steaming in the moonlight. His blade was white with frost; the Other’s danced with pale blue light. Then Royce’s parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow. Ser Waymar’s fingers brushed his side. His moleskin glove came away soaked with red. The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking. Ser Waymar Royce found his fury. “For Robert!”he shouted, and he came up snarling, lifting the frost-covered longsword with both hands and swinging it around in a flat sidearm slash with all his weight behind it. The Other’s parry was almost lazy.
Actually shares several parallels with the fight scene at Dany's wedding:
Then two men seized the same woman. She heard a shout, saw a shove, and in the blink of an eye the arakhs were out, long razor-sharp blades, half sword and half scythe. A dance of death began as the warriors circled and slashed, leaping toward each other, whirling the blades around their heads, shrieking insults at each clash. No one made a move to interfere. It ended as quickly as it began. The arakhs shivered together faster than Dany could follow, one man missed a step, the other swung his blade in a flat arc. Steel bit into flesh just above the Dothraki’s waist, and opened him from backbone to belly button, spilling his entrails into the dust. As the loser died, the winner took hold of the nearest woman—not even the one they had been quarreling over—and had her there and then. Slaves carried off the body, and the dancing resumed.
Not to mention that there were a dozen men killed throughout the wedding. Would a dozen ww be enough to surround you?
Good catch! Yes--as much as Martin humanizes the Dothraki, there's no getting round the fact that theirs is a parasitic culture. Like the Ironborn. But with the parallel to the careless cruelty of the Others--really seems like Martin is setting up Dany and her Dothraki as almost as much of a threat to Westerosi kind as the Others.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Not sure why exactly but the following quote from The Sworn Sword has an echo feel as well.
“Ser Eustace chose the black dragon over the red, in hopes that a Blackfyre king might restore the lands and castles that the Osgreys had lost under the Targaryens,” Lady Rohanne said. “Chiefly he wanted Coldmoat. His sons paid for his treason with their life’s blood. When he brought their bones home and delivered his daughter to the king’s men for a hostage, his wife threw herself from the top of Standfast tower. Did Ser Eustace tell you that?” Her smile was sad. “No, I did not think so.”
oooOOOOOoooo, this is nice. And interesting, because if there's a modern echo, it's one for which we don't have all the details yet, methinks.
Wayback days ago, I posted this in Heresy and got no bites, but I wonder if these are echo-ey things coming together around Rickard and Lyanna.
"Re: Lyanna being taken as hostage - during my last reread I was taken by the chapter in which Jaime pays his visit to Jonos Bracken and Tytos Blackwood. You may recall that he takes a Blackwood boy with him as hostage, but Tytos suggests that he also take Jonos' only daughter as a hostage as well - a maiden that he doted on. Jaime speaks with Jonos and sees his despair at the thought of losing his daughter, so he opts not to take her with him but tells Jonos "Have her at court within the year or [insert threat that I can't remember here]."
It struck me that if Lyanna was indeed the KotLT and Aerys found out, it wouldn't be unreasonable that he would expect some sort of pennace from the Starks - Brandon and Ned are too old to serve as hostages, Benjen is the right age but 3rd in line to Winterfell so not much good as far as hostages go, but Lyanna....the only daughter of Winterfell AND the perpetrator of the act....
So we know that about a year passed between the tourney and her abduction. If the king's order was to have her at court "within the year" and then she chose not to show up, Aerys would have no choice but to send someone to catch her and bring her back. I have trouble reconciling in my head why 1) Rickard/Hoster/etc didn't immediately react to the 'kidnapping' and 2) everyone assumed that she was headed to KL. Is is possible that this was a deal previously worked out between the crown and Rickard?"
We now know from the World Book that Rickard paid a visit to KL in 264....the reason for the visit isn't stated, but apparently it renewed Aerys' interest in the North. Could Rickard have been trying to propose a deal to return the lands of the North to the Starks?
So this meeting was in 264, and Lyanna was born the next year or so - the only daughter of House Stark. That's a big bargaining chip if you're trying to negotiate. Anyway, Rickard returns to the north after this meetup with Aerys, has two more children, and keeps himself holed up in Winterfell until once again returning to KL for the last time after Lyanna's abduction. By the World Book account, Aerys lost interest in the North again in short order, so the Starks would have been fairly isolated and left alone for the next 14-15 years.
However....the tourney at Harrenhal rolls around. All the Stark kids are there, and so is Aerys. Lyanna calls attention to herself as Howland's defender, and possibly as KotLT. Did Lyanna's presence remind Aerys of a bargain he had struck with Rickard 15 years prior, one that he had forgotten until now? Did Rickard possibly agree to give his only daughter to the Targaryens, either as hostage or as payment for lost lands?
"Re: Lyanna being taken as hostage - during my last reread I was taken by the chapter in which Jaime pays his visit to Jonos Bracken and Tytos Blackwood. You may recall that he takes a Blackwood boy with him as hostage, but Tytos suggests that he also take Jonos' only daughter as a hostage as well - a maiden that he doted on. Jaime speaks with Jonos and sees his despair at the thought of losing his daughter, so he opts not to take her with him but tells Jonos "Have her at court within the year or [insert threat that I can't remember here]."
It struck me that if Lyanna was indeed the KotLT and Aerys found out, it wouldn't be unreasonable that he would expect some sort of pennace from the Starks - Brandon and Ned are too old to serve as hostages, Benjen is the right age but 3rd in line to Winterfell so not much good as far as hostages go, but Lyanna....the only daughter of Winterfell AND the perpetrator of the act....
So we know that about a year passed between the tourney and her abduction. If the king's order was to have her at court "within the year" and then she chose not to show up, Aerys would have no choice but to send someone to catch her and bring her back. I have trouble reconciling in my head why 1) Rickard/Hoster/etc didn't immediately react to the 'kidnapping' and 2) everyone assumed that she was headed to KL. Is is possible that this was a deal previously worked out between the crown and Rickard?"
We now know from the World Book that Rickard paid a visit to KL in 264....the reason for the visit isn't stated, but apparently it renewed Aerys' interest in the North. Could Rickard have been trying to propose a deal to return the lands of the North to the Starks?
So this meeting was in 264, and Lyanna was born the next year or so - the only daughter of House Stark. That's a big bargaining chip if you're trying to negotiate. Anyway, Rickard returns to the north after this meetup with Aerys, has two more children, and keeps himself holed up in Winterfell until once again returning to KL for the last time after Lyanna's abduction. By the World Book account, Aerys lost interest in the North again in short order, so the Starks would have been fairly isolated and left alone for the next 14-15 years.
However....the tourney at Harrenhal rolls around. All the Stark kids are there, and so is Aerys. Lyanna calls attention to herself as Howland's defender, and possibly as KotLT. Did Lyanna's presence remind Aerys of a bargain he had struck with Rickard 15 years prior, one that he had forgotten until now? Did Rickard possibly agree to give his only daughter to the Targaryens, either as hostage or as payment for lost lands?
Hmmm. I wasn't looking at it from that point of view. I was stuck on a possible Dorne connection with Ashara and her leap from the palestone sword. Funny thing did just dawn on me though. We have absolutely no idea what happened to Lyarra Stark. Definitely worth some thought. I'm also tempted to pull in the scene of Lysa and Sansa and the moon door. It's a similar echo as well.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Hmmm. I wasn't looking at it from that point of view. I was stuck on a possible Dorne connection with Ashara and her leap from the palestone sword.
LOL, I figured that's the connection you were making, no worries. My brain just forged on ahead like "SQUIRREL!" and all the rest followed. Please forgive my cyber-ADD.
Found another in my Storm reread: Chapter 33, Sam.
Craster turned his head to glare. "I've had a bellyful o' that shrieking," he shouted up. "Give her a rag to bite down on, or I'll come up there and give her a taste o' my hand."
He would too, Sam knew. Craster had nineteen wives, but none who'd dare interfere once he started up that ladder. No more than the black brothers had two nights past, when he was beating one of the younger girls. There had been mutterings, to be sure. "He's killing her," Garth of Greenaway had said, and Clubfoot Karl laughed and said, "If he don't want the little sweetmeat he could give her to me." Black Bernarr cursed in a low angry voice, and Alan of Rosby got up and went outside so he wouldn't have to hear. "His roof, his rule," the ranger Ronnel Harclay had reminded them. "Craster's a friend to the Watch." ... The first time he'd seen Craster's Keep, Gilly had come begging for help, and Sam had lent her his black cloak to conceal her belly when she went to find Jon Snow. Knights are supposed to defend women and children. Only a few of the black brothers were knights, but even so . . . We all say the words, Sam thought. I am the shield that guards the realms of men. A woman was a woman, even a wildling woman. We should help her. We should.
The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him. A king has no secrets from his Kingsguard. Relations between Aerys and his queen had been strained during the last years of his reign. They slept apart and did their best to avoid each other during the waking hours. But whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night. The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. "You're hurting me," they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. "You're hurting me." In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted's screaming. "We are sworn to protect her as well," Jaime had finally been driven to say. "We are," Darry allowed, "but not from him."
Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone. The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew.
Hmmm. I wasn't looking at it from that point of view. I was stuck on a possible Dorne connection with Ashara and her leap from the palestone sword.
LOL, I figured that's the connection you were making, no worries. My brain just forged on ahead like "SQUIRREL!" and all the rest followed. Please forgive my cyber-ADD.
Nothing to forgive! Keep it coming. I can see that something along those lines could be a definite possibility. That's the whole purpose of trying to get all of this stuff in the same place.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?