Only one problem that I see: and that is, red is opposite green on the color wheel.
The rest of the theory is fascinating. Plus, the 'gown splattered with gore' makes more sense coming from a terrible wound, imo.
I'd also add, that while it's show only, the first time Ned watches Arya train with Syrio he's extremely happy to see Arya having fun. But as Syrio keeps beating her and Ned realizes that Arya actually is learning to fight, he grows incredibly uncomfortable. Arya suddenly blocks a blow that catches even Syrio off guard, and Ned immediately starts having a flashback to some battle he participated in... which ends with Syrio stabbing Arya in the gut and Ned swallowing hard.
Yeah, I remember when I first posted this over at the W, it was all "Oh, Ned is just imagining his youngest daughter in a battle if it came to war with the Lannisters and is getting upset."
::eyeroll::
I'll have to see if I can find that thread. The level of denial was just staggering.
Anyway, gaaaahhhhh!!!! You guys are moving fast! I can't even keep up with my own post! LOL
Couple of things:
Derp on the red/blue thing. Oh well...it was a fun thought. Still lots of echoing in that whole scene though.
It certainly would fit with GRRM saying that bad fantasy writers have scenes in their books where spunky peasant girls tell off pretty princes, whereas what should and would have happened is that the pretty prince would have raped her for that and put her in stockades and thrown garbage at her.
I was working on a post yesterday that was going to touch on this statement. I'm having a tough time deciding what fits better as an inversion to the encounter between Arya/Mycah and Joff/Sansa.
Arya, the she-wolf, is off being not-a-lady, slumming with the butcher's boy. She and Mycah are discovered by the Crown Prince and his betrothed – her older sister - basically caught doing something that she isn't supposed to be doing. [Note: Joff deliberately left The Hound behind on this outing.] More importantly, Joff and Sansa walk up just as she takes a knock, which embarrasses her and compounds the situation. Joff of course acts like a giant asshole and picks on Mycah, and Arya physically attacks Joff. Joff backs her into a corner, then Nymeria jumps in. Arya chucks Lion’s Tooth into the Trident. Mycah runs away only to be found and killed by Clegane, and Sansa later sticks up for the Prince and not her blood.
Now you could go with the mirror being the Tourney at Harrenhal/KotLT. Rhaegar sees Lyanna defend Howland from the squires, perhaps he “catches” her in the KotLT stunt as has been theorized, is amazed by her bravery and skill, and lets her/Howland go free, even though Aerys wants the head of the mystery knight and all that. Maybe Arthur Dayne as his sworn sword tracks her down and lets her escape.
BUT....the TRUE inversion would be more like: Lyanna and a friend happen upon the Crown Prince and someone else in the Riverlands doing something they aren’t supposed to be doing. (In a true inversion, his companion would be one of Lyanna's brothers.) Whatever they are doing, it isn’t something that should be seen. Rhaegar /his companion are in the guilty/embarrassed position; Lyanna and her friend are the ones attacked - because as GRRM said, the idea of her smarting off to the Crown Prince and getting away with it is a total crock of shit. Rhaegar sends his sworn sword after Lyanna (or her friend), but she/the friend escapes. Or something like that, I haven't worked it out yet.
I want to explore that latter angle a little bit more, first because it's not so lovey-cheesy like them falling in love at the Tourney, and second because there's potential to work in a Stark male. Benjen of course is a big mystery (and Benjen as the younger brother would fit the "Sansa as older sister" inversion the best)and we still don't know why he went to the Wall at such a tender age, but there's also the whole thing with Brandon running his mysterious errand in the Riverlands prior to marrying Cat. Why? As heir to Winterfell, what was he doing there in the first place? And where did he go? If you apply inversion theory as above, the plot gets REALLY thick.
Also, the part with Sansa defending Joff at the inquest instead of sticking up for her own sister is intriguing to me - tie that into Brandon's furious "Come out and die, Rhaegar!" in King's Landing. Keep in mind that Arya had been found hiding out in the Riverlands by her father's men, but due to Lannister guards at the gates, was immediately taken before the king to face her charges of assaulting the Crown Prince (charges put forth by the Crown Prince himself, at urging of his mother the Queen). Rhaegar...and his companions..."falling upon" Lyanna Stark" in the riverlands....taking her at swordpoint...THEN we hear of Brandon showing up at King's Landing demanding retribution.
Brandon's rash act ("the gallant fool") could be construed as him defending his sibling against some accusation brought about by/regarding the Crown Prince – did Aerys, the Mad King, make the accusations on Rhaegar’s behalf? The big difference in scenario here is that the charges against Arya were dismissed by King Robert even after Sansa betrayed her. (Mycah, though, is not so lucky.) I'm sure you see where this is going: the inverse would be that [Lyanna, or her friend, is sentenced to death by the king.
Additional echo: Even though she sided with Joff, Sansa gets bitchslapped by karma, is betrayed by Lannisters, and loses her wolf - Lady is killed in place of the wolf they want at the suggestion of the Mad Queen - she pays the price for someone else's wrongdoings. Ned executes Lady himself ("she is of the north and deserves better than a butcher") out of his daughter's sight.
Arya’s actions (via Nymeria) caused injury to a prince. Arya sent her wolf away, knowing Nym was in danger. The king is annoyed but willing to forgive; the queen wants revenge. Cersei targets Arya's sibling, and forces her innocent Lady to die in Nymeria’s stead. The king turns a blind eye and allows the queen to have her way. Sansa pleads for Lady’s life to no avail; Ned takes the life of the innocent, and the wrong party bears the worst punishment.
Who was the replacement wolf in the Lyanna situation? Did she go all Hunger Games - "I VOLUNTEER!" - or was Brandon the sacrificial wolf?
Now remember that when Robert does Cersei's bidding and passes the death sentence to Lady, Ned hears Sansa pleading "the way Lyanna had pleaded once." Sansa's actual plea was No, don't do it, she didn't do it, it wasn't her - NOT "Promise me". I am not sure this plea has anything to do with Jon, as presumed - if you follow the parallel, it stands to reason that Lyanna is pleading for the life of her friend.
I'll end with some open questions:
Was Howland Reed the friend?
If so, did he or Lyanna strike Rhaegar?
Did Rhaegar try to save Lyanna/whoever from death against the wishes of Aerys ("We have a wolf.") by helping her escape to Dorne?
How do we reconcile the idea of Rhaegar being the finest man X ever knew, loving his Lady Lyanna, etc with the actions laid out in this scenario?
If Arthur Dayne parallels the Hound as the sworn sword, what was his role? And how would his role lead to 1) Ned killing him at ToJ, and 2) the mutual level of respect between Ned and the Dayne family?
Once her father is arrested as a traitor to the crown, Arya manages to escape the Red Keep - with the help of Syrio and Needle - and survive by her wits until she sees Ned executed. Was Lyanna still alive for Rickard and Brandon's execution?
How is Ned aware of Lyanna's pleading, that sounded so much like Sansa's?
Where do the Lannisters fit in? At the time of the “abduction”, Tywin had already resigned as Hand, and returned with Cersei to Casterly Rock. Jaime was KG, but was the youngest/newest member so influence was probably minor. Did Jaime tattle to the king that Lyanna/whoever had been found?
Okay, I’ll stop now. I’m trying to work and post at the same time and failing miserably at both.
Yeah, I remember when I first posted this over at the W, it was all "Oh, Ned is just imagining his youngest daughter in a battle if it came to war with the Lannisters and is getting upset."
Yup it's something the show decided to include that I think makes the most sense if it has to do with Lyanna. Ned grows incredibly uncomfortable, too much so that this wasn't some very real event that he witnessed (at least in show canon).
Now it doesn't mean that Lyanna had to have actually died like this if it has to do with her. The show has completely blown over anything Brandon related, as well as ignored anything Benjen/Lyanna related... which really leaves the only possible tutor for Lyanna, should she have gotten some lessons on the side, to be Ned. Ned could have been flashing back to his lessons with Lyanna.
But then you have to take into account that Ned is flashing back to the sounds of live steel and live battle, too much so that these were just innocent practice sessions, let alone between 2 people (and despite denial by some people, I think it sounds like just the right amount of noise to cover a 10-11 person fight instead of the noise from some huge battle like the Trident which involved 75,000). Perhaps Ned did have those with Lyanna, but if that's the case, I find it far more likely that he's so uncomfortable precisely because, at least in show canon, he's the one who taught Lyanna to fight, which caused her to enter this battle he was fighting as she thought she could help out which got her killed.
BUT....the TRUE inversion would be more like: Lyanna and a friend happen upon the Crown Prince and someone else in the Riverlands doing something they aren’t supposed to be doing. (In a true inversion, his companion would be one of Lyanna's brothers.) Whatever they are doing, it isn’t something that should be seen. Rhaegar /his companion are in the guilty/embarrassed position; Lyanna and her friend are the ones attacked - because as GRRM said, the idea of her smarting off to the Crown Prince and getting away with it is a total crock of shit. Rhaegar sends his sworn sword after Lyanna (or her friend), but she/the friend escapes. Or something like that, I haven't worked it out yet.
I want to explore that latter angle a little bit more, first because it's not so lovey-cheesy like them falling in love at the Tourney, and second because there's potential to work in a Stark male. Benjen of course is a big mystery (and Benjen as the younger brother would fit the "Sansa as older sister" inversion the best)and we still don't know why he went to the Wall at such a tender age, but there's also the whole thing with Brandon running his mysterious errand in the Riverlands prior to marrying Cat. Why? As heir to Winterfell, what was he doing there in the first place? And where did he go? If you apply inversion theory as above, the plot gets REALLY thick.
I like this, but the thing that was nagging me was you saying that Lyanna/her friend got away. I don't think she did/would have. After all, she did get caught eventually. But not only that, we have two incredibly good parallels with Harwin and Domeric Bolton.
Much and more has been made about how Lyanna must have gone over willingly to Rhaegar's party willing (thus it's an elopement/not a real kidnapping) because she's such a good rider that she could have simply escaped and no one would have caught her... except for the fact that Lyanna isn't really that good, especially not compared to Rhaegar and Arthur. Arya escapes from the BWB, and while does manage to leave a lot of the guards behind, Harwin catches her. And then what does he say? That Arya rides just like Lyanna did... but that he's on another level because of who his father was. First and foremost, that right there establishes that despite being "half a horse" and a "centaur", that Lyanna really was not either. She was indeed a good rider... but not in the utterly elite category. Remember, Harwin says only that his father was the master of horse, not himself. That leaves us with a least 3 tiers of riders
1. Master of horse 2. Son of the master of horse 3. Lyanna
And that right there assumes that Lyanna was in the utterly next best category. But either way, it establishes that she's not in the master classes.
But I think the best example for why she didn't get away, is Domeric Bolton... AKA northern Rhaegar.
"For the moment. I had another, once. Domeric. A quiet boy, but most accomplished. He served four years as Lady Dustin's page, and three in the Vale as a squire to Lord Redfort. He played the high harp, read histories, and rode like the wind. Horses … the boy was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself. Redfort said he showed great promise in the lists. A great jouster must be a great horseman first."
Like is that not utterly a description of Rhaegar? Which then leaves the fact that if Domeric parallels Rhaegar, and if Domeric was faster than Lyanna, then Rhaegar was also faster than Lyanna. Which means that even if she did try to run away, that Rhaegar would catch her... much like Harwin caught Arya when she tried to escape
And really, I think that's probably the best scenario, that Lyanna's kidnapping occurred like Arya and the BWB. She tried to escape and Rhaegar chased her down and caught her. And if there ever was some romance between Rhaegar and Lyanna that it occurs/stems from this moment. After Arya's captured by Harwin, she looks at him entirely different, wounded by the fact that he "betrayed" her. I think Lyanna would look at Rhaegar entirely different too, wondering how he ever caught her. Remember, during Arya's escape, when she looks back and sees that Harwin is chasing her she immediately thinks to herself "Not him, it isn't fair" because she knows that Harwin's better than she is and that she won't be escaping with Harwin chasing her.
Arya kicked her horse back to a gallop. Run, she thought, run for Riverrun, run for home. Had she lost them? She took one quick look, and there was Harwin six yards back and gaining. No, she thought, no, he can't, not him, it isn't fair. Both horses were lathered and flagging by the time he came up beside her, reached over, and grabbed her bridle. Arya was breathing hard herself then. She knew the fight was done. "You ride like a northman, milady," Harwin said when he'd drawn them to a halt. "Your aunt was the same. Lady Lyanna. But my father was master of horse, remember."
If Lyanna got on a horse and escaped, she likely thought she'd be in the clear... until she looks behind her and sees that Rhaegar is still right there, not only keeping pace, but catching up to her. And after he catches her I wonder if she wouldn't look at him amazed that she'd been beaten at her own game.
It doesn't follow the inversion parallel exactly, but there's enough there I think that things could have worked out the way.
As for Brandon, wasn't he traveling with Rickard to Riverrun to marry Catelyn Tully when he hears about the kidnapping and that was his reason for being in the riverlands?
That's at least what the app supposedly says, but I'm not convinced. The app would have us believe that Brandon duels Littlefinger, then tells Cat that he'll come back for their wedding, then rides out to meet Rickard, meets him and his party, then heads back to Riverrun, and on his way hears about Lyanna... but that completely ignores the fact that Brandon rides to King's Landing without Rickard. This scenario requires us to imagine that Brandon is with Rickard's party and hears about Lyanna before Rickard does, then rides out without his leave to do so. Does Rickard have so little control over his son and his own messengers?
On the other hand, I'm fairly convinced that Brandon rode to the Vale when he left Catelyn. Ned knows about Brandon's duel with Littlefinger intimately, and says that Brandon often spoke of Littlefinger in anger. Which leads to me to think that Brandon visited Ned after the duel. Catelyn says that Brandon was 20 when he dueled Littlefinger, and Ned says that Brandon was 20 when he died. Which leaves the only possible chance for such a talk about the duel to have been right then when Catelyn says that Brandon left her and they'd be married upon his return.
And not only that, but it suddenly explains why Elbert Arryn and Kyle Royce, two very important Vale men, are with him when he goes to King's Landing. Kyle Royce could maybe be explained by the fact that he's probably Brandon's cousin as the Starks nearest kin is some branch of the Royce family and therefore Brandon already knew him (and maybe Kyle was a ward of Rickard's or something), but Elbert Arryn makes no sense. He's Jon Arryn's heir. He lives in the Eyrie. Ned is the one who has the connection to Jon Arryn and the Eyrie, not Brandon... unless Brandon's been there and visited Ned and become friends with him himself.
In which case the situation is Brandon's in Riverrun where he duels Littlefinger. With him are Ethan Glover his squire who'd be following him everywhere, and Jeffory Mallister who's a Riverlander himself who's presence doesn't really need to be explained as he's probably a friend that Brandon made during his time in the Riverlands over the years. They then go to the Vale to see Ned, perhaps just as a friendly visit, or perhaps to see him before the wedding (as at least it seems to me that Ned wasn't planning on attending the wedding). While there he spends some time with Kyle and Elbert and invites them to the wedding. They then all leave to head back to Riverrun and hear about Lyanna and ride south instead.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Now it doesn't mean that Lyanna had to have actually died like this if it has to do with her. The show has completely blown over anything Brandon related, as well as ignored anything Benjen/Lyanna related...
It has also blown over anything Ashara Dayne-related, who I also think factors in to this whole scenario somewhere.
I like this, but the thing that was nagging me was you saying that Lyanna/her friend got away. I don't think she did/would have. After all, she did get caught eventually.
I'll have to come back to your post when I have more time, but all the replies have got me thinking that I/we need to do what was mentioned upthread, and that is lay out Arya's timeline in reverse order and overlay it with what we know of Lyanna. Arya has many "captors" during her journey as was mentioned, and traversed all over the Crownlands/Riverlands during the time she is presumed to be dead. Lyanna may have too - so would a Rhaegar "captor" encounter be near the beginning or near the end? Would she have been caught and punished by the Crown Prince or his sworn sword? Where does the QoLaB crowning at Harrenhal come in?
Like the show teaser said, the past has already been written - if the film is flipping in reverse like in Bran's visions, what's the sequence of events? If we figure out the order, maybe we can figure out the missing events.
I started doing that in a document at home and can share later on when I get home. It has a key at the top with everyone's inverse character like this:
Arya Stark = Lyanna Stark Joffrey Baratheon = Rhaegar Targaryen Arthur Dayne = Sandor Clegane Jaime Lannister = Gerold Hightower Cersei Lannister = Rhaella Targaryen Robert Baratheon = Aerys Targaryen Twyin Lannister = Tywin Lannister Nymeria = Howland (throwing it out there) Brave Companions = Three squires at Harrenhal
Do you think there is a BenJen doppelganger in there, too? He is banished and we don't know why, but it must have been damning. I can only think of Howland and how he disappeared. But the opposite would be someone being rewarded? Idk, spit balling and hoping it helps...
Remind me again why we think he was banned to the Wall?
He wasn't banned. There's two conflicting sources about why he's at the Wall.
1. GRRM refused to say why but said that we'll find out eventually 2. GRRM said Benjen had always wanted to join the Watch, especially after hearing the black brother's recuitment speech at Harrenhal, and after the war with Ned having a fertile wife who'd already given him an heir he felt it was safe to leave for the Wall as he'd wished.
Which I have some problems with. I think Benjen is at the Wall voluntarily and because he'd always wanted to join the Watch (he certainly doesn't seem to hate his life at the Wall as Jon observes him having fun with his brothers when he gets there and those laugh lines on his face didn't make themselves). But at the same time, I can't accept that Benjen decided to join the Watch just because Robb had been born and he'd been waiting to go all his life. Robb is a baby, he could die at any moment, and even if he doesn't survive it will be years before he can help continue House Stark. And with Ned having a bastard, Catelyn might never have slept with him again because she'd already done her duty with Robb. Basically, yeah Ned was alive and well, and he had an heir, but House Stark was still just Ned, Robb, and Benjen. Benjen joining the Watch at this time, which eliminates him from having children, is incredibly selfish and stupid. He should have married some girl, conceived some children, and then joined the Watch after House Stark's numbers were up.
And that applies even if Benjen went to the Wall as a punishment for something, either applied by Ned, or self-imposed by Benjen. No matter what, leaving for the Watch when he did (which according to GRRM was in the first couple months after the war) doesn't make any sense. It's absolutely terrible for the family. So I hope we get a better explanation.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Me too. Ben was not Waymar, the youngest son of an ancient house with too many heirs. His pack was already nearly extinct before the rebellion, and its numbers had just been halved by it. It makes no sense, particularly given his speech to Jon about joining the NW at too young an age, and before siring a few bastards.
And most tellingly, if there weren't a more complicated matter to be resolved by Benjen's departure from House Stark, then why haven't the mundane reasons been revealed already? If they are tangential to the main storyline(s), I'd think GRRM would have no issue with providing the frivolous backstory when asked.
BrB.... (bumping resumed, Benjen...)
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Brienne and Jaime marching to King's Landing. The Warrior Maid of Tarth of Evenfall, with all of its attendant echoes of Starfall. Including the sword, the Just Maid, given to Galledon (or something like that) by the Maid. Brienne is incredibly devoted to both her King Renly and Lady Stark. Brienne escorts the Arthur Dayne wannabe. The fallen Kingsguard. He admires her, despite himself. And, after a dream, realizes he needs to go back for her.
Ygritte and Jon beyond the Wall. The warrior maid and the struggling brother of the Night's Watch. He cannot bring himself to kill her. Gets himself caught up with the wrong king and used as leverage. Falls in love and then has to escape when pushed too far.
Arthur and Lyanna--a maid who wants to be warrior-like. . . Is Martin giving us an echo of how this hypothetical relationship might have happened? Especially Jaime and Brienne, given the Dayne and Evenfall parallels, and the fact that their journey starts in the Riverlands?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Brienne and Jaime marching to King's Landing. The Warrior Maid of Tarth of Evenfall, with all of its attendant echoes of Starfall. Including the sword, the Just Maid, given to Galledon (or something like that) by the Maid. Brienne is incredibly devoted to both her King Renly and Lady Stark. Brienne escorts the Arthur Dayne wannabe. The fallen Kingsguard. He admires her, despite himself. And, after a dream, realizes he needs to go back for her.
Ygritte and Jon beyond the Wall. The warrior maid and the struggling brother of the Night's Watch. He cannot bring himself to kill her. Gets himself caught up with the wrong king and used as leverage. Falls in love and then has to escape when pushed too far.
Arthur and Lyanna--a maid who wants to be warrior-like. . . Is Martin giving us an echo of how this hypothetical relationship might have happened? Especially Jaime and Brienne, given the Dayne and Evenfall parallels, and the fact that their journey starts in the Riverlands?
This seems entirely possible. I'm reluctant to label anything a true echo unless I can find something in the specific scene that ties one character to another or links location etc. It certainly wouldn't hurt to see if we can find any indication of a more specific link in those sections of text.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
This seems entirely possible. I'm reluctant to label anything a true echo unless I can find something in the specific scene that ties one character to another or links location etc. It certainly wouldn't hurt to see if we can find any indication of a more specific link in those sections of text.
The Jaime-Brienne and Jon-Ygritte scenes definitely echo each other. Jon keeps asking "who am I" without his vows and family. Jaime asks the same question re: his hand.
There's the pool, the confessions, a few more things. Will take a closer look when I get a chance.
Will this apply to Arthur? The dream under the rock sends Jaime back to Brienne. But I may REALLY be stretching here. So, will drop it until I can find something.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Ok, who came up with the echo about Hightower (White Bull) and Whent (the bat) vs. Grenn (Aurochs) and Pyp (ears like a bat)? Was that voice, and where was that comparison?
I thought of something related to that but wanted to piggyback off the original idea....and of course now I can't find it!
Ok, who came up with the echo about Hightower (White Bull) and Whent (the bat) vs. Grenn (Aurochs) and Pyp (ears like a bat)? Was that voice, and where was that comparison?
Not I. I think Preston Jacobs brought up some of the Whent-bat stuff in his video series though. And it seems like LmL brought it up 'afore as well.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Ok, who came up with the echo about Hightower (White Bull) and Whent (the bat) vs. Grenn (Aurochs) and Pyp (ears like a bat)? Was that voice, and where was that comparison?
I thought of something related to that but wanted to piggyback off the original idea....and of course now I can't find it!
That was me. The quote is here in the thread somewhere, but it comes from when Sam is first introduced and Jon steps in to defend him.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
That was me. The quote is here in the thread somewhere, but it comes from when Sam is first introduced and Jon steps in to defend him.
It was pretty early on, right? One of your earlier echoes.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.