Wraith, I just went through your theory and left a few comments over at W. One thing that I saw that struck me that I didn't mention was the couple that owns the Shy Maid. I never noticed before that they were from Dorne. It makes me wonder all the more about Dany. Especially seeing that her image of home in her visions from the HotU sounds suspiciously like the architecture along the Greenblood River. It also makes me wonder if Lemore isnt indeed Mellario? If that's the case, does that mean that Aegon is real? Or is he the real Quentyn?
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
I kept skipping this thread thinking it looked boring and then I noticed I started the thread myself
I guess I'll read through now, lol
Actually, I'm a bad person. Wraith did start this one. Mojo had an old thread with only two posts in it so I combined them. I was cleaning up general the other day. Moved some stuff to chat and games and combined a couple old threads with very little in them into the newer ones.
Actually, I'm a bad person. Wraith did start this one. Mojo had an old thread with only two posts in it so I combined them. I was cleaning up general the other day. Moved some stuff to chat and games and combined a couple old threads with very little in them into the newer ones.
Great detective work! It is actually interesting- I just get bored with the chapters without Quentyn, but Wraith pretty much explained why those chapters were boring
Lots of subtext in the Dornish chapters but most people miss it. IMO.
Wraith , I just went through your theory and left a few comments over at W. One thing that I saw that struck me that I didn't mention was the couple that owns the Shy Maid. I never noticed before that they were from Dorne. It makes me wonder all the more about Dany. Especially seeing that her image of home in her visions from the HotU sounds suspiciously like the architecture along the Greenblood River. It also makes me wonder if Lemore isnt indeed Mellario? If that's the case, does that mean that Aegon is real? Or is he the real Quentyn?
Yup I keep trying to figure out what they are doing there. I've read some Mellario/Lemore theories but none ever seemed likely to me. If that were true than I guess Doran is teaming with Varys and Illyrio if Aegon was actually Quentyn. Or is seriously outplaying or someone is being kept in the dark about Aegon's true identity. Or Aegon being real... it certainly good be true.
Varys would be the only one who could have pointed it out and the Dornish would be natural allies if he saved Aegon. Still Doran could be keeping this from Arianne and I do think that he is. I don't think he would have sent her to Aegon unless he didn't know. Time will telll.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Yup I keep trying to figure out what they are doing there. I've read some Mellario/Lemore theories but none ever seemed likely to me. If that were true than I guess Doran is teaming with Varys and Illyrio if Aegon was actually Quentyn. Or is seriously outplaying or someone is being kept in the dark about Aegon's true identity. Or Aegon being real... it certainly good be true.
Varys would be the only one who could have pointed it out and the Dornish would be natural allies if he saved Aegon. Still Doran could be keeping this from Arianne and I do think that he is. I don't think he would have sent her to Aegon unless he didn't know. Time will telll.
You sound about like me. The more time I put into thinking about it, the less I'm sure of anything.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
"Archmaester Marwyn's Book of Lost Books." He lifted his gaze from the page to study her. "Hotho brought me a copy from Oldtown. He has a daughter he would have me wed." Lord Rodrik tapped the book with a long nail. "See here? Marwyn claims to have found three pages of Signs and Portents, visions written down by the maiden daughter of Aenar Targaryen before the Doom came to Valyria. Does Lanny know that you are here?"
Archmaester Marwyn is one of the most mysterious characters in Kong. He gets named dropped as early as fan fiction before finally appearing in the end of AFFC.
Marwyn, he named himself," the woman replied in the Common Tongue. "From the sea. Beyond the sea. The Seven Lands, he said. Sunset Lands. Where men are iron and dragons rule. He taught me this speech."
As quoted above he is also mentioned by Rodrick "The Reader" Lord of Harlaw. As well as by acolytes at the Citadel before appearing in Sam's POV. When Sam finals meets him he has three students. Alleras, Leo Tyrell, and Pate. Alleras is actually Sarella Sand a bastard of Oberyn Martell. Leo Tyrell is the younger son of the uncle of Mace Tyrell. Pate is actually Jaquen the Faceless Man. A very odd group to say the least.
I believe there is a connection between Marwyn and the Martells. The connection between the Tyrells and Faceless Men may play a part but that is beyond the scope of this post. I believe the connection between Marwyn and the Martells goes back to Sarella's father Oberyn.
Oberyn's oldest daughter is the daughter of a Oldtown whore and was born in 272. That means about a year earlier the young Prince of Dorne was hanging out in an Oldtown brothel. Considering that Oberyn would be only 12-13 at the time its a very odd occurance. I believe this is the first time that Oberyn would meet Marwyn, we are unsure of course when Marwyn became Archmaester or even how old he is.
He has a mocking name for everyone, thought Pate, but he could not deny that Marwyn looked more a mastiff than a maester. As if he wants to bite you. The Mage was not like other maesters. People said that he kept company with whores and hedge wizards, talked with hairy Ibbenese and pitch-Rainbow Summer Islanders in their own tongues, and sacrificed to queer gods at the little sailors' temples down by the wharves. Men spoke of seeing him down in the undercity, in rat pits and Rainbow brothels, consorting with mummers, singers, sellswords, even beggars. Some even whispered that once he had killed a man with his fists.
Later at 16 Oberyn kills the Lord of Yronwood and is forced into exile from Dorne. Note its only from Dorne, I get the impression that people thinks he is exiled from all of Westeros but that doesn't happen. Now what happens next is a tad confusing timeline wise.
After, Oberyn left Dorne to explore the Free Cities. There he dabbled in the dark arts, learning the secrets of poisoning and far more, only to return to the Seven Kingdoms to study at the Citadel. He stayed there long enough to forge six links of a maester’s chain, and then he moved on again. He fought in the Disputed Lands, rode with a mercenary company for a time, and had many exploits of love, battles, wars, and more. - From the App
He had traveled in the Free Cities, learning the poisoner's trade and perhaps arts darker still, if rumors could be believed. The Red Viper went to Oldtown, thence across to the narrow sea to Lys, though none dared call it exile. He had studied at the Citadel, going so far as to forge six links of a maester's chain before he grew bored. He had soldiered in the Disputed Lands across the narrow sea, riding with the Second Sons for a time before forming his own company .
So Oberyn spent time at the Citadel, traveled the Free Cities, and soldiered in the Disputed Lands, I have estimated the times in a previous post. That's twice Oberyn has gone to Oldtown. Now there is still really nothing to directly connect Oberyn and Marwyn despite conjecture and name similarity, both end in -wyn.
In my first quote its noted that Marwyn found three pages of Signs and Portents by Daenys the Dreamer in Essos. There in only one place in Essos that I think those texts would exist and that is in Old Volantis. Specifically behind the Rainbow Walls.
Across the wide blue expanse of the Rhoyne, he could see the Rainbow Wall that had been raised by the Valyrians when Volantis was no more than an outpost of their empire: a great oval of fused stone two hundred feet high and so thick that six four-horse chariots could race around its top abreast, as they did each year to celebrate the founding of the city. Outlanders, foreigners, and freedmen were not allowed inside the Rainbow Wall save at the invitation of those who dwelt within, scions of the Old Blood who could trace their ancestry back to Valyria itself.
Monkey Demon had read much and more of dragons through the years. The greater part of those accounts were idle tales and could not be relied on, and the books that Illyrio had provided them were not the ones he might have wished for. What he really wanted was the complete text of The the molten substances of the Freehold, Galendro's history of Valyria. No complete copy was known to Westeros, however; even the Citadel's lacked twenty-seven scrolls. They must have a library in Old Volantis, surely. I may find a better copy there, if I can find a way inside the Rainbow Walls to the city's heart.
Now Monkey Demon is one of the cleverest character's in Kong and easily the smartest of the POV's. Now Monkey Demon thinks that old scrolls from the Freehold would be found behind the Rainbow Walls of Old Volantis and I tend to agree. However as noted no one is permitted entry behind the Rainbow Walls unless it is from one of the Old Blood of Volantis.
Now how does this all relate to Oberyn and Marwyn. I speculate that Oberyn spent time at the Citadel with Marwyn before or afterwards they spent some time travelling the Free Cities. Oberyn was able to get them access behind the Rainbow Walls, how? Nymeria Sand, Oberyn's 2nd daughter, was born from the noblest blood of Old Volantis.
With her high cheekbones, full lips, and milk-pale skin, she had all the beauty that her elder sister lacked . . . but Obara's mother had been an Oldtown whore, whilst Nym was born from the noblest blood of old Volantis.
That's the smoking gun, well smoking scrolls anyway. Oberyn was Marwyn's access to the library behind the Rainbow Walls of Old Volantis where he found the three pages of Signs and Portents that he used to write his book.
"Archmaester Marwyn's Book of Lost Books." He lifted his gaze from the page to study her. "Hotho brought me a copy from Oldtown. He has a daughter he would have me wed." Lord Rodrik tapped the book with a long nail. "See here? Marwyn claims to have found three pages of Signs and Portents, visions written down by the maiden daughter of Aenar Targaryen before the Doom came to Valyria. Does Lanny know that you are here?"
Archmaester Marwyn is one of the most mysterious characters in ASOIAF. He gets named dropped as early as GOT before finally appearing in the end of AFFC.
Marwyn, he named himself," the woman replied in the Common Tongue. "From the sea. Beyond the sea. The Seven Lands, he said. Sunset Lands. Where men are iron and dragons rule. He taught me this speech."
As quoted above he is also mentioned by Rodrick "The Reader" Lord of Harlaw. As well as by acolytes at the Citadel before appearing in Sam's POV. When Sam finals meets him he has three students. Alleras, Leo Tyrell, and Pate. Alleras is actually Sarella Sand a bastard of Oberyn Martell. Leo Tyrell is the younger son of the uncle of Mace Tyrell. Pate is actually Jaquen the Faceless Man. A very odd group to say the least.
I believe there is a connection between Marwyn and the Martells. The connection between the Tyrells and Faceless Men may play a part but that is beyond the scope of this post. I believe the connection between Marwyn and the Martells goes back to Sarella's father Oberyn.
Oberyn's oldest daughter is the daughter of a Oldtown whore and was born in 272. That means about a year earlier the young Prince of Dorne was hanging out in an Oldtown brothel. Considering that Oberyn would be only 12-13 at the time its a very odd occurance. I believe this is the first time that Oberyn would meet Marwyn, we are unsure of course when Marwyn became Archmaester or even how old he is.
He has a mocking name for everyone, thought Pate, but he could not deny that Marwyn looked more a mastiff than a maester. As if he wants to bite you. The Mage was not like other maesters. People said that he kept company with whores and hedge wizards, talked with hairy Ibbenese and pitch-black Summer Islanders in their own tongues, and sacrificed to queer gods at the little sailors' temples down by the wharves. Men spoke of seeing him down in the undercity, in rat pits and black brothels, consorting with mummers, singers, sellswords, even beggars. Some even whispered that once he had killed a man with his fists.
Later at 16 Oberyn kills the Lord of Yronwood and is forced into exile from Dorne. Note its only from Dorne, I get the impression that people thinks he is exiled from all of Westeros but that doesn't happen. Now what happens next is a tad confusing timeline wise.
After, Oberyn left Dorne to explore the Free Cities. There he dabbled in the dark arts, learning the secrets of poisoning and far more, only to return to the Seven Kingdoms to study at the Citadel. He stayed there long enough to forge six links of a maester’s chain, and then he moved on again. He fought in the Disputed Lands, rode with a mercenary company for a time, and had many exploits of love, battles, wars, and more. - From the App
He had traveled in the Free Cities, learning the poisoner's trade and perhaps arts darker still, if rumors could be believed. The Red Viper went to Oldtown, thence across to the narrow sea to Lys, though none dared call it exile. He had studied at the Citadel, going so far as to forge six links of a maester's chain before he grew bored. He had soldiered in the Disputed Lands across the narrow sea, riding with the Second Sons for a time before forming his own company .
So Oberyn spent time at the Citadel, traveled the Free Cities, and soldiered in the Disputed Lands, I have estimated the times in a previous post. That's twice Oberyn has gone to Oldtown. Now there is still really nothing to directly connect Oberyn and Marwyn despite conjecture and name similarity, both end in -wyn.
In my first quote its noted that Marwyn found three pages of Signs and Portents by Daenys the Dreamer in Essos. There in only one place in Essos that I think those texts would exist and that is in Old Volantis. Specifically behind the Black Walls.
Across the wide blue expanse of the Rhoyne, he could see the Black Wall that had been raised by the Valyrians when Volantis was no more than an outpost of their empire: a great oval of fused stone two hundred feet high and so thick that six four-horse chariots could race around its top abreast, as they did each year to celebrate the founding of the city. Outlanders, foreigners, and freedmen were not allowed inside the Black Wall save at the invitation of those who dwelt within, scions of the Old Blood who could trace their ancestry back to Valyria itself.
Tyrion had read much and more of dragons through the years. The greater part of those accounts were idle tales and could not be relied on, and the books that Illyrio had provided them were not the ones he might have wished for. What he really wanted was the complete text of The Fires of the Freehold, Galendro's history of Valyria. No complete copy was known to Westeros, however; even the Citadel's lacked twenty-seven scrolls. They must have a library in Old Volantis, surely. I may find a better copy there, if I can find a way inside the Black Walls to the city's heart.
Now Tyrion is one of the cleverest character's in ASOIAF and easily the smartest of the POV's. Now Tyrion thinks that old scrolls from the Freehold would be found behind the Black Walls of Old Volantis and I tend to agree. However as noted no one is permitted entry behind the Black Walls unless it is from one of the Old Blood of Volantis.
Now how does this all relate to Oberyn and Marwyn. I speculate that Oberyn spent time at the Citadel with Marwyn before or afterwards they spent some time travelling the Free Cities. Oberyn was able to get them access behind the Black Walls, how? Nymeria Sand, Oberyn's 2nd daughter, was born from the noblest blood of Old Volantis.
With her high cheekbones, full lips, and milk-pale skin, she had all the beauty that her elder sister lacked . . . but Obara's mother had been an Oldtown whore, whilst Nym was born from the noblest blood of old Volantis.
That's the smoking gun, well smoking scrolls anyway. Oberyn was Marwyn's access to the library behind the Black Walls of Old Volantis where he found the three pages of Signs and Portents that he used to write his book.
So people what do think?
Sorry I am reposting this but the April fool text changes has mucked up the format and I can't edit it for some reason.
Archmaester Marwyn is one of the most mysterious characters in ASOIAF. He gets named dropped as early as GOT before finally appearing in the end of AFFC.
As quoted above he is also mentioned by Rodrick "The Reader" Lord of Harlaw. As well as by acolytes at the Citadel before appearing in Sam's POV. When Sam finals meets him he has three students. Alleras, Leo Tyrell, and Pate. Alleras is actually Sarella Sand a bastard of Oberyn Martell. Leo Tyrell is the younger son of the uncle of Mace Tyrell. Pate is actually Jaquen the Faceless Man. A very odd group to say the least.
I believe there is a connection between Marwyn and the Martells. The connection between the Tyrells and Faceless Men may play a part but that is beyond the scope of this post. I believe the connection between Marwyn and the Martells goes back to Sarella's father Oberyn.
Oberyn's oldest daughter is the daughter of a Oldtown whore and was born in 272. That means about a year earlier the young Prince of Dorne was hanging out in an Oldtown brothel. Considering that Oberyn would be only 12-13 at the time its a very odd occurance. I believe this is the first time that Oberyn would meet Marwyn, we are unsure of course when Marwyn became Archmaester or even how old he is.
Later at 16 Oberyn kills the Lord of Yronwood and is forced into exile from Dorne. Note its only from Dorne, I get the impression that people thinks he is exiled from all of Westeros but that doesn't happen. Now what happens next is a tad confusing timeline wise.
So Oberyn spent time at the Citadel, traveled the Free Cities, and soldiered in the Disputed Lands, I have estimated the times in a previous post. That's twice Oberyn has gone to Oldtown. Now there is still really nothing to directly connect Oberyn and Marwyn despite conjecture and name similarity, both end in -wyn.
In my first quote its noted that Marwyn found three pages of Signs and Portents by Daenys the Dreamer in Essos. There in only one place in Essos that I think those texts would exist and that is in Old Volantis. Specifically behind the Black Walls.
Now Tyrion is one of the cleverest character's in ASOIAF and easily the smartest of the POV's. Now Tyrion thinks that old scrolls from the Freehold would be found behind the Black Walls of Old Volantis and I tend to agree. However as noted no one is permitted entry behind the Black Walls unless it is from one of the Old Blood of Volantis.
Now how does this all relate to Oberyn and Marwyn. I speculate that Oberyn spent time at the Citadel with Marwyn before or afterwards they spent some time travelling the Free Cities. Oberyn was able to get them access behind the Black Walls, how? Nymeria Sand, Oberyn's 2nd daughter, was born from the noblest blood of Old Volantis.
That's the smoking gun, well smoking scrolls anyway. Oberyn was Marwyn's access to the library behind the Black Walls of Old Volantis where he found the three pages of Signs and Portents that he used to write his book.
So people what do think?
Sorry I am reposting this but the April fool text changes has mucked up the format and I can't edit it for some reason.
woo this is great, could never figure dorne out, but all of this makes sense. quentyn taming dragon is cool liked the ending of part 4
Im off tomorrow Wraith. I will give up all my date invites to just read your essay and give my impressions.
Because you all come first!
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Here is the rest of my Oberyn timeline, please note its incomplete but some people might find it interesting. I apologize in advance for the lack of formatting.
After, Oberyn left Dorne to explore the Free Cities. There he dabbled in the dark arts, learning the secrets of poisoning and far more, only to return to the Seven Kingdoms to study at the Citadel. He stayed there long enough to forge six links of a maester’s chain, and then he moved on again. He fought in the Disputed Lands, rode with a mercenary company for a time, and had many exploits of love, battles, wars, and more. - From APP
He had traveled in the Free Cities, learning the poisoner's trade and perhaps arts darker still, if rumors could be believed. The Red Viper went to Oldtown, thence across to the narrow sea to Lys, though none dared call it exile. 274 - 276?
He had studied at the Citadel, going so far as to forge six links of a maester's chain before he grew bored. 276 - 279?
He had soldiered in the Disputed Lands across the narrow sea, riding with the Second Sons for a time before forming his own company. 279 - 281?
His tourneys, his battles, his duels, his horses, his carnality . . . it was said that he bedded men and women both, and had begotten bastard girls all over Dorne. The sand snakes, men called his daughters. So far as Tyrion had heard, Prince Oberyn had never fathered a son.
Tournaments: Harrenhal 281 AC Storm’s End 276 – 278 AC Unnamed (High Garden?) – 285 – 290 AC
Three phases of life: 1. Birth and Boyhood: 258 - 274 2. Exile and Exploration: 274 - 284 3. Dorne and Death: 284 - 300
Birth and Boyhood: 258 – 274 AC
Oberyn Nymeros Martell is born in 258 AC at Sunspear in Dorne. He was known as the “terror” of the pools during his time in the water gardens. He was fostered at Sandstone with House Qorgyle in 265. (Note: this is an estimation, we know that Doran was fostered at Salt Shore at the age of 9) An interesting thing to note is that the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch prior to Jeor Mormont was also from House Qorgyle.
In 271 AC Oberyn was in Oldtown and we don’t really know why a 13 year old Prince of Doran would be hanging out in Oldtown brothels.
In 272 Obara is born in Oldtown to a whore. Oberyn doesn’t claim her for several years.
In 273 AC the Princess of Dorne takes Oberyn and Elia on a trip to find them marriages. The places they visited were Starfall, the Arbor, Oldtown, the Shield Islands, Crakehall, and finally Casterly Rock. Interesting to note that only Starfall is in Dorne. The Arbor, Oldtown (again) and the Shield Islands are in the Reach. Crakehall and Casterly Rock are of course in the Westerlands. The true purpose is to marry either Oberyn or Elia to Jaime or Cersei. The Princess of Dorne and Joanna Lannister were close friends who had met at court and served as handmaidens to Princess Rhaella. Sadly Joanna had just died and the Dornish were rebuffed by Tywin Lannister.
In 274 AC is in Yronwood and is caught in bed with the paramour of its Lord Edgar Yronwood. The infamous duel occurs and Edgar dies from his wounds. People believe Oberyn poisoned his blade and he is known as “The Red Viper” henceforth. Due to House Yronwood’s outrage Oberyn is “exiled from Dorne.
Exile and Exploration: 274 – 284 AC
In 274 AC Oberyn leaves Dorne and goes back to Oldtown. From there he spends some time in Lys likely learning more about poison and perhaps darker arts.
In 275 AC has gone from Lys to Volantis and beds a noblewomen of the Old Blood and 9 months later Nymeria is born in Volantis.
In 276 AC is back again in Oldtown and starts his studying at the Citadel. He likely also claims Obara as his daughter during this time. Meet’s Tyene’s mother who is a Septa in the Reach. Probably at the motherhouse in Oldtown or from the Starry Sept.
In 277 AC Tyene is born in Reach, you would think that he takes her immediately but apparently she used to read to baby Tyene from the Seven Pointed Star. Oberyn’s studies continue at the Citadel.
Oberyn attends a Tournament in Storm’s End, we are unsure of the exact date but it happens between 276 – 278 AC.
In 279 AC Prince Rhaegar Targaryen marries Elia of Dorne. We don’t know that Oberyn attended but I find it hard to believe that Oberyn would miss the wedding of his beloved sister.
In 280 AC Oberyn joins the Second Son and signs for a year and fights with the Company. He also meets Sarella’s mother a Summer Islander, the Captain of the Feathered Kiss.
In 281 AC Sarella is born. Also during this year is the great Tournament at Harrenhal. Oberyn returned to the Seven Kingdoms to participate. He also danced with Ashara Dayne during the Tournament.
In 282 AC her returned to Essos and founded a sellsword company. We are not sure of its name. We are only told it that he runs the company for “a time.” Did it disband? Is it still around with someone else in charge?
In 283 AC Robert’s Rebellion ends. I think Oberyn was overseas during the time or we would have fought, or done something to assist Elia.
Dorne and Death: 284 – 300
284/285 AC Oberyn returns to Dorne and attempts to raise Dorne for Viserys. He likely met Ellaria Sand during this period. Doran and Oberyn are talked down by Jon Arryn and Prince Lewyn’s bones are returned to Sunspear.
Soon after Oberyn goes to Braavos to sign the Pact with Willem Darry. The Sealord of Braavos is a witness. Viserys will wed Arianne Martell. Oddly Willem never mentions this to Viserys or Dany.
285/286 AC – Elia Sand born aka Lady Lance. Named after Oberyn’s dead sister.
285-290 there is the infamous Tournament where Oberyn jousts against Willas Tyrell. Willas’s horse falls on him and he is crippled. Oberyn sends his own maester to help him. Willas and Oberyn become friends but most of the Tyrells blame Oberyn.
287/288 AC Obella is born. Named after Oberyn himself.
291/292 AC Dorea is born. Named after Doran Martell.
In 293 AC Loreza born. Possibly named Doran and Oberyn’s mother.
Other things that happened during this time was the training of Daemon Sand, the bastard of Godsgrace. He was Oberyn’s squire and possible lover. He was knighted by him. He was with Oberyn in King’s Landing when he died.
Hi Wraith, I'm just getting back around to reviewing this thread and wanted to compliment you again on this timeline. We should do these for every character! (Yes. I know how nerdy that sounds, but just think about how much we could learn when they intersect!)
Anyway, still perusing. Will comment more as I read. For now, I'd just like to point out that we don't know if the Willem Darry that signed the marriage pact was the same "Willem Darry" that was with Dany in "Braavos." The Dornish plan might just be the unseen motive that's given us @prettypig's wild and wacky thread and markg171's fDany thread.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
"Archmaester Marwyn's Book of Lost Books." He lifted his gaze from the page to study her. "Hotho brought me a copy from Oldtown. He has a daughter he would have me wed." Lord Rodrik tapped the book with a long nail. "See here? Marwyn claims to have found three pages of Signs and Portents, visions written down by the maiden daughter of Aenar Targaryen before the Doom came to Valyria. Does Lanny know that you are here?"
Archmaester Marwyn is one of the most mysterious characters in ASOIAF. He gets named dropped as early as GOT before finally appearing in the end of AFFC.
This, I've noticed. Marwyn is often seen as interesting, but is often discounted as a minor character. He isn't. The connections abound.
He taught Mirri Maz Duur. He encouraged Qyburn. He is read by The Reader. And as is widely conjectured, his personal assistant "Alleras the Sphinx" is likely none other than Oberyn's own daughter Sarella.
And while pure conjecture, Marwyn might even be from the Vale. House Belmore happens to have a Ser Marwyn, who now guards the gates of the moon, and whose family is supportive of House Royce. Waymar likely knew a Marwyn in his formative years. And Jon Arryn undoubtedly did. If Jon Arryn had been influenced by Archmaester Marwyn, or had rebuffed influence from the Mage, one or the other might explain his rebellion. I know it's called Robert's Rebellion, but in reality, it was Jon's.
If it were called Jon's Rebellion, I think it would make certain other mysteries a bit too obvious... so the misnomer seems strategic to me.
Another tangential thought that occurs to me is that House Harlaw's sigil is a white (ice?) scythe on black (long night?). Given the appearance of the white (ice) haired woman slitting the throat of a man with a sickle (not unlike a scythe), nourishing Winterfell's heart tree, I am interested in what the White Scythe Reads. The fact that he is reading Marwyn's Book of Lost Books is intriguing to say the least. Paging LmL.
Marwyn, he named himself," the woman replied in the Common Tongue. "From the sea. Beyond the sea. The Seven Lands, he said. Sunset Lands. Where men are iron and dragons rule. He taught me this speech."
As quoted above he is also mentioned by Rodrick "The Reader" Lord of Harlaw. As well as by acolytes at the Citadel before appearing in Sam's POV. When Sam finals meets him he has three students. Alleras, Leo Tyrell, and Pate. Alleras is actually Sarella Sand a bastard of Oberyn Martell. Leo Tyrell is the younger son of the uncle of Mace Tyrell. Pate is actually Jaquen the Faceless Man. A very odd group to say the least.
I believe there is a connection between Marwyn and the Martells. The connection between the Tyrells and Faceless Men may play a part but that is beyond the scope of this post. I believe the connection between Marwyn and the Martells goes back to Sarella's father Oberyn.
Oberyn's oldest daughter is the daughter of a Oldtown whore and was born in 272. That means about a year earlier the young Prince of Dorne was hanging out in an Oldtown brothel. Considering that Oberyn would be only 12-13 at the time its a very odd occurance. I believe this is the first time that Oberyn would meet Marwyn, we are unsure of course when Marwyn became Archmaester or even how old he is.
Aside from my kneejerk response to Mirri's comment (where men are iron = Westeros, Iron Islands.... and where dragons rule = KL, 7k, Old Valyria)... I am taken aback by Leo Tyrell. Paging SlyWren and Lady Dyanna... Leo Tyrell is the Rhaegar of Oldtown. He's the one that announces (the harbinger) to the acolytes that the dragons have indeed returned. He even threatens to pluck a rose, by the name of Rosey. We need to re-examine this dynamic in a forensic reread asap. Pate is the Robert Baratheon... and Rosey is his Lyanna - not betrothed, but promised if the price is right. And once again, the Dragon never claims Rosey... Instead of tasting her, Pate tastes (Lannister) gold... and is killed by it (the borehunt). It's all right there!!!
He has a mocking name for everyone, thought Pate, but he could not deny that Marwyn looked more a mastiff than a maester. As if he wants to bite you. The Mage was not like other maesters. People said that he kept company with whores and hedge wizards, talked with hairy Ibbenese and pitch-black Summer Islanders in their own tongues, and sacrificed to queer gods at the little sailors' temples down by the wharves. Men spoke of seeing him down in the undercity, in rat pits and black brothels, consorting with mummers, singers, sellswords, even beggars. Some even whispered that once he had killed a man with his fists.
This seems to confirm that Marwyn and Oberyn kept the exact same sort of company... Well done!
In my first quote its noted that Marwyn found three pages of Signs and Portents by Daenys the Dreamer in Essos. There in only one place in Essos that I think those texts would exist and that is in Old Volantis. Specifically behind the Black Walls.
Across the wide blue expanse of the Rhoyne, he could see the Black Wall that had been raised by the Valyrians when Volantis was no more than an outpost of their empire: a great oval of fused stone two hundred feet high and so thick that six four-horse chariots could race around its top abreast, as they did each year to celebrate the founding of the city. Outlanders, foreigners, and freedmen were not allowed inside the Black Wall save at the invitation of those who dwelt within, scions of the Old Blood who could trace their ancestry back to Valyria itself.
Tyrion had read much and more of dragons through the years. The greater part of those accounts were idle tales and could not be relied on, and the books that Illyrio had provided them were not the ones he might have wished for. What he really wanted was the complete text of The Fires of the Freehold, Galendro's history of Valyria. No complete copy was known to Westeros, however; even the Citadel's lacked twenty-seven scrolls. They must have a library in Old Volantis, surely. I may find a better copy there, if I can find a way inside the Black Walls to the city's heart.
Now Tyrion is one of the cleverest character's in ASOIAF and easily the smartest of the POV's. Now Tyrion thinks that old scrolls from the Freehold would be found behind the Black Walls of Old Volantis and I tend to agree. However as noted no one is permitted entry behind the Black Walls unless it is from one of the Old Blood of Volantis.
Now how does this all relate to Oberyn and Marwyn. I speculate that Oberyn spent time at the Citadel with Marwyn before or afterwards they spent some time travelling the Free Cities. Oberyn was able to get them access behind the Black Walls, how? Nymeria Sand, Oberyn's 2nd daughter, was born from the noblest blood of Old Volantis.
With her high cheekbones, full lips, and milk-pale skin, she had all the beauty that her elder sister lacked . . . but Obara's mother had been an Oldtown whore, whilst Nym was born from the noblest blood of old Volantis.
That's the smoking gun, well smoking scrolls anyway. Oberyn was Marwyn's access to the library behind the Black Walls of Old Volantis where he found the three pages of Signs and Portents that he used to write his book.
This is a huge find Wraith, and one I did not really comprehend when I first clicked "like" on this post a few weeks ago. You truly have found a smoking gun. A few thoughts...
In considering this connection, I cannot help but be reminded of the infamous descriptor for The Winds of Winter:
Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany's fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final clomactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.
Marwyn is the southron Bloodraven. Simple as that. What's more, is Bran and Samwell not only cross paths, they mirror the movements of the other. I've been saying it for years, but I'm feeling the need to say it again...the Wall is a lens through which we see equal and opposite reflections.
Samwell fled south after the sack of Craster's Keep = Bran fled north after the sack of Winterfell.
Samwell must escape wights and is aided by Weirwood, Ravens and Coldhands = Bran must escape wildlings (at Queenscrown) and is aided by Wolf, Rain, and Jon Snow.
Samwell is sent to Oldtown and Marwyn the Mage by Jon Snow = Bran is brought to the Haunted Forest and Bloodraven the Greenseer by Coldhands.
Samwell is accompanied by a Black Brother, a Woman, a Child, and a little Old Man = Bran is accompanied by Coldhands, Meera, Hodor, and Jojen (who Old Nan called "Little Grandfather")
Samwell is welcomed by Alleras = Bran is welcomed by Leaf
Samwell is told about magic by the Mage = Bran is told about magic by the Last Greenseer
So what I'm getting at is this Marwyn guy is sort of a big deal. That Oberyn seduced a Volantine noblewoman alone is quite impressive. That one of Oberyn's daughters is noble, from both sides of the Narrow Sea is quite amazing. That his other daughter is Marwyn's Leaf all but proves your theory. I must admit I have not yet watched prestonjacobs' Deeper Dorne series, but I would not be surprised if few others have made this connection.
Though I know your interests are very political Wraith, I think you just discovered another way in which Dorne is integral to the Song. SlyWren and I have been seeing this as well, but more in connection to House Dayne. I must admit some personal bias in this regard. I have always been more interested in House Dayne than in House Martell. And only now do I see this has been a gross oversight. House Martell is playing the role of the Southron Children of the Forest -- they even have a Pact!
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Though I know your interests are very political Wraith, I think you just discovered another way in which Dorne is integral to the Song. SlyWren and I have been seeing this as well, but more in connection to House Dayne. I must admit some personal bias in this regard. I have always been more interested in House Dayne than in House Martell. And only now do I see this has been a gross oversight. House Martell is playing the role of the Southron Children of the Forest -- they even have a Pact!
I'll get to the rest in a bit but. . . the Martells are Rhoynish. And story of Mother Royne and getting all of her children to sing together to end the long night. . . is this where that legend fits?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.