I'll get to the rest in a bit but. . . the Martells are Rhoynish. And story of Mother Royne and getting all of her children to sing together to end the long night. . . is this where that legend fits?
Mayhaps. I've long argued (against wolfmaid7 among others) that the cotf do not manipulate water. Theirs are the songs (and magic) of Earth. If they caused the Hammer of the Waters, it was only because of their manipulation of Earth (tectonic plates, riddled with weirwood roots)...
So what if the Children of the Mother Royne "ended" the advance of the Long Night in their neck of the forest (river) by causing the Hammer of the Waters?
It would certainly fit with their many examples of water-manipulation during their defense against Targaryen Dragonlords than it would with anything we've seen from the Singers of the Song of Earth.
I'm chomping at the bit for your take on Leo Tyrell as Rhaegar, Pate as Robert, and Rosey as Lyanna... I'm seeing that prologue as yet another microcosm of self-plagiarism. Or, to put it more gently, an "echo."
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Mayhaps. I've long argued (against wolfmaid7 among others) that the cotf do not manipulate water. Theirs are the songs (and magic) of Earth. If they caused the Hammer of the Waters, it was only because of their manipulation of Earth (tectonic plates, riddled with weirwood roots)...
Actually I would argue that earth and water magic are just at opposite ends of the same spectrum. Think of Howland and how he has learned to be able to turn one into another with whispered word.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
And while pure conjecture, Marwyn might even be from the Vale. House Belmore happens to have a Ser Marwyn, who now guards the gates of the moon, and whose family is supportive of House Royce. Waymar likely knew a Marwyn in his formative years. And Jon Arryn undoubtedly did. If Jon Arryn had been influenced by Archmaester Marwyn, or had rebuffed influence from the Mage, one or the other might explain his rebellion. I know it's called Robert's Rebellion, but in reality, it was Jon's.
Hmm. Interesting. I'm inclined to agree with Wraith that Marwyn is more than likely Prince Lewyn's bastard. I think he made a decent case for Lewyn's paramour being Olenna Tyrell, but I'm not quite as sold on that. It's certainly possible that the paramour was from the Vale. I've long thought that current events in the Vale are reflective of Dorne during the Rebellion, but there could be other ties as well.
I am taken aback by Leo Tyrell. Paging SlyWren and Lady Dyanna... Leo Tyrell is the Rhaegar of Oldtown. He's the one that announces (the harbinger) to the acolytes that the dragons have indeed returned. He even threatens to pluck a rose, by the name of Rosey. We need to re-examine this dynamic in a forensic reread asap. Pate is the Robert Baratheon... and Rosey is his Lyanna - not betrothed, but promised if the price is right. And once again, the Dragon never claims Rosey... Instead of tasting her, Pate tastes (Lannister) gold... and is killed by it (the borehunt). It's all right there!!!
This actually makes a lot of sense. I'd be curious to see if there are any subsequent parallels that we could dig up to confirm. By all means, Sunshine, start a reread thread. SlyWren and I already each have one that we've been largely ignoring. lol.
Though I know your interests are very political Wraith, I think you just discovered another way in which Dorne is integral to the Song. SlyWren and I have been seeing this as well, but more in connection to House Dayne. I must admit some personal bias in this regard. I have always been more interested in House Dayne than in House Martell. And only now do I see this has been a gross oversight. House Martell is playing the role of the Southron Children of the Forest -- they even have a Pact!
There are definitely echoes of the North to be found in Dorne. If the Martells are representative of the CotF, are the Daynes representative of the Starks? Or another Northern house?
I'll get to the rest in a bit but. . . the Martells are Rhoynish. And story of Mother Royne and getting all of her children to sing together to end the long night. . . is this where that legend fits?
Well, earth is the opposite of water. And if I ever get around to it, I might actually prove that fact.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Hmm. Interesting. I'm inclined to agree with Wraith that Marwyn is more than likely Prince Lewyn's bastard. I think he made a decent case for Lewyn's paramour being Olenna Tyrell, but I'm not quite as sold on that. It's certainly possible that the paramour was from the Vale. I've long thought that current events in the Vale are reflective of Dorne during the Rebellion, but there could be other ties as well.
I wouldn't attempt to refute that, because I like that interp as well. I was only tossing out a crackpot to connect Marwyn to Jon Arryn in some fashion.
That Marwyn has a Tyrell acolyte and is named "Marwyn" does seem rather suggestive. I could see the child-woman in Chattaya's brothel naming Robert's bastard Barwyn instead of Barra had it been born male. All very fun food for thought in any case.
But yeah, my random string of thoughts was only an attempt to connect Jon Arryn to the Mage... either as a proxy or as an antagonist. Jon Arryn successfully ended nearly 300 years of Dragonking succession. Not a small feat for a man in his golden years. I've called him the Tywin of the East. In my mind Jon Arryn is responsible for the lie that Ned was forced to live (i.e. the rebellion's propaganda Maester Sam and I have been discussing in the brothel forensic file).
This actually makes a lot of sense. I'd be curious to see if there are any subsequent parallels that we could dig up to confirm. By all means, Sunshine, start a reread thread. SlyWren and I already each have one that we've been largely ignoring. lol.
LOL! Well as you two are ignoring one, Maester Sam and I are busy in another. I'd be happy to start one on that prologue chapter though. Wraith has given me quite the new angle with which to view it.
I didn't mention it earlier, but I meant to bring up another suggestion as well. What if Marwyn had been using the handsome, young, and virile Dornish Prince as a hypersexualized political lure? If Wraith is right about some of these inferences, one could see how the Mage benefited immensely from his fiery wingman.
There are definitely echoes of the North to be found in Dorne. If the Martells are representative of the CotF, are the Daynes representative of the Starks? Or another Northern house?
Definitely House Dayne. But of course I'd say that.
... I mean, who else? House Dayne goes back unto the dawn of days (= end of the Long Night) and House Stark was founded by Bran the Builder (Night's King).
Yes I enjoy trying to unravel the secrets of the game of thrones. I will let the far wiser try to unravel the secrets of the song of ice and fire.
Marwyn has a big role to play in the conclusion of the story and I like the parallels you drew between him and Bloodraven. Bloodraven has his greenseer magic which is duplicated somewhat by the glass candles of Valyria.
One more thing to consider about Marwyn possibly being Lewyn and Olenna's. Who are the three students closely associated with Marwyn. Alleras, a Martell bastard. Leo, a Tyrell. Pate, a faceless man. Martell + Tyrell + hidden identity.
Also what does everyone think that Pate/Jaquen is doing there? I think he is/was working on something with Marwyn.
I wonder if the Rhoynar play the role of water from the oath of the Reeds?
"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.
"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.
"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together.
I agree that the CotF are earth. Bronze and iron seem to be the First Men and Andals perhaps? Ice is the Others and Fire are the Valyrians. I really have no idea but this lines seem really important.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Mayhaps. I've long argued (against wolfmaid7 among others) that the cotf do not manipulate water. Theirs are the songs (and magic) of Earth. If they caused the Hammer of the Waters, it was only because of their manipulation of Earth (tectonic plates, riddled with weirwood roots)...
So what if the Children of the Mother Royne "ended" the advance of the Long Night in their neck of the forest (river) by causing the Hammer of the Waters?
It would certainly fit with their many examples of water-manipulation during their defense against Targaryen Dragonlords than it would with anything we've seen from the Singers of the Song of Earth.
If so--it might fit with what I was talking about DarkSister 1001 about re: the Ironborn's drowning ceremony as being a kind of wighting. An extreme way to connect with an elemental power--water. Like ice wights. And fire wights. Water wights.
Marwyn is the southron Bloodraven. Simple as that. What's more, is Bran and Samwell not only cross paths, they mirror the movements of the other. I've been saying it for years, but I'm feeling the need to say it again...the Wall is a lens through which we see equal and opposite reflections.
HA! I was thinking this before I'd finished reading your post.
Glass candles instead of weirwoods.
Not sure re: the sense. But the idea that the North and the extreme south are both watch areas of Westeros works. We may even have a trace of it in the "Wardens of the West/East" thing.
The North has the Wall. The south has the Red Mountains and its passes. And the family words: We Light the Way. We Guard the Way. Etc.
Aside from my kneejerk response to Mirri's comment (where men are iron = Westeros, Iron Islands.... and where dragons rule = KL, 7k, Old Valyria)... I am taken aback by Leo Tyrell. Paging SlyWren and Lady Dyanna... Leo Tyrell is the Rhaegar of Oldtown. He's the one that announces (the harbinger) to the acolytes that the dragons have indeed returned. He even threatens to pluck a rose, by the name of Rosey. We need to re-examine this dynamic in a forensic reread asap. Pate is the Robert Baratheon... and Rosey is his Lyanna - not betrothed, but promised if the price is right. And once again, the Dragon never claims Rosey... Instead of tasting her, Pate tastes (Lannister) gold... and is killed by it (the borehunt). It's all right there!!!
Very possible. But I will have to re-read that section because it's now hazy in my bird head.
So--Sam would be there to try to set right what the people "inside" the Citadel failed to do? The Citadel as the weir wood? But perhaps also as King's Landing--Rhaegar failed to set it right. And set up events for the Long Night to return--or just participated in the return? Now Sam needs to come in and set it right?
So, where would Doran's Plan fit in all this? I'm getting a bit lost. Just as the Children? Because Doran's politics seem not particularly Child-like.
Or are you agreeing that the Children may have an ulterior agenda?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I wonder if the Rhoynar play the role of water from the oath of the Reeds?
"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.
"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.
"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together.
I agree that the CotF are earth. Bronze and iron seem to be the First Men and Andals perhaps? Ice is the Others and Fire are the Valyrians. I really have no idea but this lines seem really important.
Or Ice as the North and Fire as the South--Dorne's really, really hot.
So, the role of the Rhoynar as water would fit--uniting all of the elements and peoples of the land.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
One more thing to consider about Marwyn possibly being Lewyn and Olenna's. Who are the three students closely associated with Marwyn. Alleras, a Martell bastard. Leo, a Tyrell. Pate, a faceless man. Martell + Tyrell + hidden identity.
NICE! There might not be enough there to prove it beyond a shadow of doubt, but you really have made an excellent case for it. I need to put more thought into the faceless man aspect, because I haven't really come up with any solid ideas as of yet for why he would need to stick around. I have a crazy, whacked out question for you. Have you ever considered the possibility that Jaqen H'gar may actually be Rhaegar Targaryan? I have no real reason for questioning this other than reading through a theory that wasn't really all that convincing a while back that kind of stuck with me.
I agree that the CotF are earth. Bronze and iron seem to be the First Men and Andals perhaps? Ice is the Others and Fire are the Valyrians. I really have no idea but this lines seem really important.
That might very well be, but I also think that it's reflective of the six main magical elements. Earth, Water, Ice, Fire, Blood and Air/Soul.
But yeah, my random string of thoughts was only an attempt to connect Jon Arryn to the Mage... either as a proxy or as an antagonist. Jon Arryn successfully ended nearly 300 years of Dragonking succession. Not a small feat for a man in his golden years. I've called him the Tywin of the East. In my mind Jon Arryn is responsible for the lie that Ned was forced to live (i.e. the rebellion's propaganda Maester Sam and I have been discussing in the brothel forensic file).
I really need to find time to read through that thread. It's been on my mind for a while now.
I mean, who else? House Dayne goes back unto the dawn of days (= end of the Long Night) and House Stark was founded by Bran the Builder (Night's King).
If so--it might fit with what I was talking about DarkSister 1001 about re: the Ironborn's drowning ceremony as being a kind of wighting. An extreme way to connect with an elemental power--water. Like ice wights. And fire wights. Water wights.
Not sure re: the sense. But the idea that the North and the extreme south are both watch areas of Westeros works. We may even have a trace of it in the "Wardens of the West/East" thing.
North+South=Ice+Fire.
I would come just shy of equating glass candles and weirwoods, however. Weirwoods are Westeros. Glass Candles are not.
But I do shout a big YUP! at the analogous Wardens of West/East. Jon Arryn and Tywin Lannister are the two most successful players in the Game of Thrones since Aegon the Conqueror.
Very possible. But I will have to re-read that section because it's now hazy in my bird head.
So--Sam would be there to try to set right what the people "inside" the Citadel failed to do? The Citadel as the weir wood? But perhaps also as King's Landing--Rhaegar failed to set it right. And set up events for the Long Night to return--or just participated in the return? Now Sam needs to come in and set it right?
So, where would Doran's Plan fit in all this? I'm getting a bit lost. Just as the Children? Because Doran's politics seem not particularly Child-like.
Microcosm...no Sam...no Doran...no Dorne. LOL
I was looking at this as more of an isolated echo. The young blokes enjoying their drinks of ice and fire. A Rosey ready to be plucked. A lustful man who wants nothing in the world so much as her... thinking violent thoughts when the higher-born lad considers giving her a token of his affections...
But yeah, then I switched gears and started musing the Dornish are like the cotf, didn't I...
I think I was a little lost too. I do still see a slight distant sliver of a parallel, but not enough to make the grandest of cases.
Lady Dyanna, link me that Rhaegar is Jaquen theory that I need to read. If Rhaegar is anyone he is Mance, but I think he is most likely done. Unless it was a glamoured Arthur Dayne who died on the Trident.
Who in the series uses air/soul magic? Where did you get those six?
voice, everyone knows that the COTF are the true villains and are attempting to make humanity and the Others fight each other.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Wraith, I have two for you. I think that you might enjoy the second a bit more. I don't agree with everything in either of them, but they are good for thought.
Wraith , I have two for you. I think that you might enjoy the second a bit more. I don't agree with everything in either of them, but they are good for thought.
Fun reads but not terribly conclusive to me but I enjoyed them.
Made me think of my crazy Darkstar is a Targ theory. He is the son Jaerhrys of Rhaelle and Aerys who was poisoned. The ages match up. The World Book gives it a paragraph or two when the rest of the stillbirth/early deaths were hardly given a line of text. Also explains the "weaned on venom" bit.
Gerold Darkstar Dayne is a (mostly) anagram of "old dead Targaryen "
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Yes I enjoy trying to unravel the secrets of the game of thrones. I will let the far wiser try to unravel the secrets of the song of ice and fire.
Marwyn has a big role to play in the conclusion of the story and I like the parallels you drew between him and Bloodraven. Bloodraven has his greenseer magic which is duplicated somewhat by the glass candles of Valyria.
One more thing to consider about Marwyn possibly being Lewyn and Olenna's. Who are the three students closely associated with Marwyn. Alleras, a Martell bastard. Leo, a Tyrell. Pate, a faceless man. Martell + Tyrell + hidden identity.
Also what does everyone think that Pate/Jaquen is doing there? I think he is/was working on something with Marwyn.
I wonder if the Rhoynar play the role of water from the oath of the Reeds?
"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.
"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.
"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together.
I agree that the CotF are earth. Bronze and iron seem to be the First Men and Andals perhaps? Ice is the Others and Fire are the Valyrians. I really have no idea but this lines seem really important.
I actually had time today to read through this thread, and I really like where it's going. Dorne is important, and has a history that goes way back, kind of like the rebels who never really completely surrendered.
I can't see them rolling over now, but Oberyn learning dark things at the Citadel and the Free Coties ties into it, and I'm sure his daughters and brother know a thing or two. I wish I had Doran's patience, though, and I can't wait to see how he reacts when he finds out his son was killed by Dany's dragon and rejected by her. Do you think the marriage pact between Dany and *ugh I forgot his name* was real?
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Yes I enjoy trying to unravel the secrets of the game of thrones. I will let the far wiser try to unravel the secrets of the song of ice and fire.
Marwyn has a big role to play in the conclusion of the story and I like the parallels you drew between him and Bloodraven. Bloodraven has his greenseer magic which is duplicated somewhat by the glass candles of Valyria.
One more thing to consider about Marwyn possibly being Lewyn and Olenna's. Who are the three students closely associated with Marwyn. Alleras, a Martell bastard. Leo, a Tyrell. Pate, a faceless man. Martell + Tyrell + hidden identity.
Also what does everyone think that Pate/Jaquen is doing there? I think he is/was working on something with Marwyn.
I wonder if the Rhoynar play the role of water from the oath of the Reeds?
I agree that the CotF are earth. Bronze and iron seem to be the First Men and Andals perhaps? Ice is the Others and Fire are the Valyrians. I really have no idea but this lines seem really important.
I actually had time today to read through this thread, and I really like where it's going. Dorne is important, and has a history that goes way back, kind of like the rebels who never really completely surrendered.
I can't see them rolling over now, but Oberyn learning dark things at the Citadel and the Free Coties ties into it, and I'm sure his daughters and brother know a thing or two. I wish I had Doran's patience, though, and I can't wait to see how he reacts when he finds out his son was killed by Dany's dragon and rejected by her. Do you think the marriage pact between Dany and *ugh I forgot his name* was real?
The Martells and Dorne itself are survivors, Martin's shown us that much through his books and histories. Dany never had a marriage pact with anyone. It was for Arianne and Viserys. Upon closer examination I don't think that was the actual plans of the brother's Martell and more of an insurance policy should the Targ kids prove their mettle and ability to actually have a chance of regaining Westeros.
Not sure how Doran will react but I also am not sure that the Quentyn that was sent was the real Quentyn Martell. Then again prestonjacobs thinks that Quentyn actually survived. Only Winds will tell.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!