You just landed on my Most Batshit Mega-Tinfoil Numero Uno Crackpot of All Time: there was indeed a Targaryen king inside the TOJ, but it wasn't baby Jon or rAegon. It was Rhaegar himself - and the blood magic that I am positive went down there was intended to bring him back to life.
I will be commenting on the bigger picture shortly, but had to quickly say that I LOVE the idea of them trying to resurrect Rhaegar at the TOJ! It would tie a lot of things together in a truly awesome way. And it would explain why the show is apparently planning on a major TOJ flashback. It seems like that would be lame if it only shows us who Jon's parents are... but if there is a lot more to the story, it would be worth it, and set us up perfectly for Jon's imminent resurrection!
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
"The Destroyer is not a suit of armor that can be physically worn or disassembled. A life force must be projected into the armor in order to animate it which leaves the possessor’s body in a catatonic state. The Destroyer is linked to the body of the individual inside which is why the person does not die due to lack of life force, but if the person’s essence is put back inside its body by a powerful spell directed at the person, the Destroyer will become inanimate once again. By the same token, if the person’s body is killed, the life force will leave the Destroyer and revert it back to its lifeless state. Normally, a person has to be close to the Destroyer and a willing participant to have their life essence transferred into it, but a person’s essence can also be transferred if that person is not mentally guarded for such a transfer. Odin or Loki, however, can make the transferals over great distances due to their proficiency with magic."
So the greenseers are controlling the white walkers! Interesting. It seems that the white walker "suit" can be warged by greenseers, or, inhabited by a person "not mentally guarded" - like... a baby?
The second Really Interesting Thing is what happens to the suit when it’s not being warged by someone trying to destroy Thor: it gets hidden. Usually by Odin, who doesn’t want it falling into the wrong hands.
Odin squirrels it away in the underground Temple of Darkness for a time, until Loki finds it and animates it the first time. After it is recovered it goes back into the Temple, which Odin then collapses, seemingly burying the Destroyer in the rubble. Wash, rinse, repeat in another encounter – this time Loki gets his trickster hands on it and uses it in another plot with some other folks.** He is foiled in the end and Odin takes the armor into custody again.
This does sound a lot like the crypts of Winterfell, collapsed lower level and all.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
"The Destroyer is not a suit of armor that can be physically worn or disassembled. A life force must be projected into the armor in order to animate it which leaves the possessor’s body in a catatonic state. The Destroyer is linked to the body of the individual inside which is why the person does not die due to lack of life force, but if the person’s essence is put back inside its body by a powerful spell directed at the person, the Destroyer will become inanimate once again. By the same token, if the person’s body is killed, the life force will leave the Destroyer and revert it back to its lifeless state. Normally, a person has to be close to the Destroyer and a willing participant to have their life essence transferred into it, but a person’s essence can also be transferred if that person is not mentally guarded for such a transfer. Odin or Loki, however, can make the transferals over great distances due to their proficiency with magic."
So the greenseers are controlling the white walkers! Interesting. It seems that the white walker "suit" can be warged by greenseers, or, inhabited by a person "not mentally guarded" - like... a baby?
The second Really Interesting Thing is what happens to the suit when it’s not being warged by someone trying to destroy Thor: it gets hidden. Usually by Odin, who doesn’t want it falling into the wrong hands.
Odin squirrels it away in the underground Temple of Darkness for a time, until Loki finds it and animates it the first time. After it is recovered it goes back into the Temple, which Odin then collapses, seemingly burying the Destroyer in the rubble. Wash, rinse, repeat in another encounter – this time Loki gets his trickster hands on it and uses it in another plot with some other folks.** He is foiled in the end and Odin takes the armor into custody again.
This does sound a lot like the crypts of Winterfell, collapsed lower level and all.
So the greenseers are controlling the white walkers! Interesting. It seems that the white walker "suit" can be warged by greenseers, or, inhabited by a person "not mentally guarded" - like... a baby?
This does sound a lot like the crypts of Winterfell, collapsed lower level and all.
Man i've been preaching the greenseers are responsible for the wws for how long by utilizing skinchanging powers.The part i'm stuck on though is what are their bodies?I've taken to calling them "husks" but husks of what is where i'm stuck.
Though i'm thinking wouldn't Rhaegar have been burnt in his armour?
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
Man i've been preaching the greenseers are responsible for the wws for how long by utilizing skinchanging powers.The part i'm stuck on though is what are their bodies?I've taken to calling them "husks" but husks of what is where i'm stuck.
Though i'm thinking wouldn't Rhaegar have been burnt in his armour?
Oh I know you have mentioned the idea of greenseers controlling the wws or being behind them I just wanted to tag you in the thread so you would check it out
Though i'm thinking wouldn't Rhaegar have been burnt in his armour?
Well, if it follows the Marvel plotline, he wouldn't physically have been wearing the armor. It's controlled by his soul as his body rests catatonic...
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Well, if it follows the Marvel plotline, he wouldn't physically have been wearing the armor. It's controlled by his soul as his body rests catatonic...
So, the armor is like an "office?" Something controlled by another force?
@prettypig: this is fabulous! Am still processing. But am wondering re: the winged helm and the black armor: any chance they are counterfeits? Like Stannis' Lightbringer? References to an older, real armor?
On winged helm: we know there's a counterfeit winged knight in the Arryns. The Real Winged Knight wasn't Andal.
So. in all of Rhaegar's prophecy study, am wondering if he found something re: black armor. And made his own in reference to it.
And am now wondering how in the name of all that's holy I could prove that. ..
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
But am wondering re: the winged helm and the black armor: any chance they are counterfeits? Like Stannis' Lightbringer? References to an older, real armor?
I keep forgetting to mention. Mance has a winged helm.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Though i'm thinking wouldn't Rhaegar have been burnt in his armour?
Well, if it follows the Marvel plotline, he wouldn't physically have been wearing the armor. It's controlled by his soul as his body rests catatonic...
So how would this work with the wws? Seeing as there were 6 now five that we've seen?
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
So how would this work with the wws? Seeing as there were 6 now five that we've seen?
Hmm. I'm not sure. The ww using a similar technique was Maester Sam's suggestion. It does have a certain logic to it. I would imagine that instead of a special suit of armor, however, the greenseers would use a temporary body used to house a soul. It almost seems to me that the physical form of the ww can dissipate into the environment, be carried on the wind, or possibly become the wind, with the ability to reform itself as convenient/needed.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
So the greenseers are controlling the white walkers!
Huh. Well, when I posted this I have to admit that greenseers and Others never crossed my mind, but the idea makes sense now that I think about it. Although I think I'm more on board with Lady Dyanna 's comment above in that the greenseers need a physical body, and the Others might be able to manipulate themselves through various states of frozen water matter. Or something.
BeautifulBacon: this is fabulous! Am still processing. But am wondering re: the winged helm and the black armor: any chance they are counterfeits? Like Stannis' Lightbringer? References to an older, real armor?
Brief aside: For clarity, re: the winged helm - I used that more as an example of shape....from artist depiction and text description, it's not very clear what the helm actually looked like. A couple of renderings show it as a helm with dragon wings and a single head, others have it as three heads sprouting from the top, etc. I think it's fair to say that it had some ornament that gave it the appearance of being "winged", if it wasn't outright winged.
tl;dr: the helm may not have been winged like Thor's, but it was probably similar in structure/appearance to Thor's while he was animating the armor.
OK, anyway....counterfeit armor.....now THAT is an interesting idea. An expertly crafted and true-to-original replica, but a replica without the appropriate powers nonetheless. Very important distinction, particularly if you're going to be taking on stronger foes in tournaments and battles in the river and such.
So then, assuming for the moment that Rhaegar is indeed Ned-dead, I wonder if he was under the mistaken impression that this was soopar-speshul magic protective armor and he couldn't be killed, but in reality it was a fake and he paid for that with his life? Recall that he seemed pretty confident in his convo with Jaime that he was coming back from the Trident.... Perhaps he had his own "Mel" in the background screwing with his expectations and totally misleading him about his "Lightbringer"?
So how would this work with the wws? Seeing as there were 6 now five that we've seen?
Hmm. I'm not sure. The ww using a similar technique was Maester Sam's suggestion. It does have a certain logic to it. I would imagine that instead of a special suit of armor, however, the greenseers would use a temporary body used to house a soul. It almost seems to me that the physical form of the ww can dissipate into the environment, be carried on the wind, or possibly become the wind, with the ability to reform itself as convenient/needed.
A projection of the mind? Hmmm! Like Mel's shadows, but more. Mel's shadow if combined with being Hodor-hijacked?
I keep forgetting to mention. Mance has a winged helm.
Yup! That's what I was thinking, too. It gets mentioned--and it's odd. We were talking about this on another thread, though I'm not sure which.
Regardless--the idea that the winged wolf and the winged knight might be from similar legends. Skinchangers and greenseers with power as heroes. Am wondering if Mance's winged helmet is in that same ilk--a hint at an old story. Worn by the man who loves willing music (and the stories in it) and who is looking for ancient magical objects: the horn.
Though I also know have an image in my head of Mance as Bugs Bunny in What's Opera Doc--with the winged helmet: so pretty!
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Brief aside: For clarity, re: the winged helm - I used that more as an example of shape....from artist depiction and text description, it's not very clear what the helm actually looked like. A couple of renderings show it as a helm with dragon wings and a single head, others have it as three heads sprouting from the top, etc. I think it's fair to say that it had some ornament that gave it the appearance of being "winged", if it wasn't outright winged.
tl;dr: the helm may not have been winged like Thor's, but it was probably similar in structure/appearance to Thor's while he was animating the armor.
Which would potentially fit with the idea of the winged knight and winged wolf--hero greenseers and skin changers, animating animals. . . .
OK, anyway....counterfeit armor.....now THAT is an interesting idea. An expertly crafted and true-to-original replica, but a replica without the appropriate powers nonetheless. Very important distinction, particularly if you're going to be taking on stronger foes in tournaments and battles in the river and such.
So then, assuming for the moment that Rhaegar is indeed Ned-dead, I wonder if he was under the mistaken impression that this was soopar-speshul magic protective armor and he couldn't be killed, but in reality it was a fake and he paid for that with his life? Recall that he seemed pretty confident in his convo with Jaime that he was coming back from the Trident.... Perhaps he had his own "Mel" in the background screwing with his expectations and totally misleading him about his "Lightbringer"?
Well, he did have a non-babykilling Mel: Aemon. And his knowledge of the prophecy. What did Rhaegar find in those books and what did he think it meant?
Stannis seems to believe Mel that he cannot lose. Martin has made it VERY clear that focusing too much on prophecy = badness.
Had not thought about the armor as making Rhaegar think he couldn't lose. He did very well at Harrenhal in it. And Martin makes a big deal of Rhaegar's armor in Game and in Clash in Dany's POV's. As well as in Ned's in Game.
Was also thinking that the armor might be a stand-in for the real one. Rhaegar's thinking he will get the real stuff one day. Like Lightbringer for Stannis. . . I need to mull a bit more, too.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
There is some limited evidence of such decorative motifs being used on actual helmets in the ancient world, but these may have functioned as ceremonial rather than functional objects. Attic helmets decorated with wings of sheet bronze were worn by the Samnites and other Italian peoples before their conquest by Rome. A number of such helmets have been excavated and can be seen in various museums.[1]
Helmets decorated with animal motifs, no doubt including wings, were described by Diodorus Siculus as being worn by Celts.
"On their heads they wear bronze helmets which possess large projecting figures lending the appearance of enormous stature to the wearer. In some cases horns form one part with the helmet, while in other cases it is relief figures of the foreparts of birds or quadrupeds."
An actual example of this type of Celtic helmet was discovered in Romania, dating to the third century BC: it has a high-mounted crest formed as a bird, possibly an eagle or a raven, with large wings spread out to either side. The crest was cunningly made, the wings articulated at the body so that they would have flapped up and down as the wearer moved.[2] Today this kind of helmet is commonly believed to have been worn by the Celts. The Celts, however, mostly wore plainer helmets of conical or sub-conical shape, such as the 'Montefortino' type later adopted by the Romans.
The ancient depictions of Mercury with a winged helmet are taken to symbolize speed. In modern comic book mythology, this has evolved into the wings present in the helmet or head-portion of the costume of various versions of The Flash.